 Poster: A snowHead
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@Ozboy, Thanks for that too!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@LaForet, not laforet's chart again!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| wills_h wrote: |
@Ozboy, given that we've strayed into talking about all season tyres are these https://www.justtyres.co.uk/t1110237/supervalue-275-30-r20-w
as good quality as the price suggests that will be?
My new car takes rather large tyres and trying to find all seasons for it is proving a bit difficult |
Not sure if you we're asking about these as suitable for winter ( ozboy answered about the vredestien type) the above have nothing in the way of winter qualities as far as I can see. They are just a straight general tire choice of that size. Camskill are a respected supplier and it's not misrepresented, just not winter choice.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@ski3, The website specified that these were all season tyres, but from what you say it appears that they aren't. If you look below the load index on the webpage it has a sun and snow symbol. Honestly I thought the price was too good to be true for proper all season tyres.
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Any one used Pirelli Scorpion Verde in the Alps? New car has these "all season tires" fitted. I will have chains but wonder if I should invest in full winters. I have used vredestein all season and found them fab, so just wondering if any snowheads have experienced them in snow.
Just a week, driving down and parking in flaine then drive back.
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@harrim51, Do they have the Mountain/Snowflake logo? - if so they qualify as winter tyres so should be fine, if not and they just have M&S, not so good. (I have Kleber Quadraxer all-seasons, with the mountain/snowflake logo, and performance in snow and ice is indistinguishable from normal winter tyres)
EDit - Just checked and they are M&S, so not proper "winter tyres" - better than summer tyres, but not as good as any with Mountain/Snowflake.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Tue 15-10-19 12:33; edited 1 time in total
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Next new dope Q of the day...
Will all-season/winter tyres be marked in a universal way that Mr le Plod can immediately check? Or will there be Gallic shrugs followed by being sent to the naughty step down the hill?
On tyre choice... I have my goto independent tyre man near home, and had a chat with him. He will fit whatever I want, and if winters, he will at no charge replace my summer tyres when I get home from my month in the alps. I have the storage were he to say the summers are good for x000 more miles, so I'll probably go winters.
Sorry for the thread hijack, and thanks very much for all the advice.
CG
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@RobinS, Ha, posts crossed!
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@Charliegolf, For winters, or all-season with full winter capabilities you need the Mountain/Snowflake symbol on them. (Not M&S)
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| wills_h wrote: |
| @ski3, The website specified that these were all season tyres, but from what you say it appears that they aren't. If you look below the load index on the webpage it has a sun and snow symbol. Honestly I thought the price was too good to be true for proper all season tyres. |
I didn't see that but agree with you that it suggests all season from that logo. It doesn't show the "three peaks mountain snowflake " symbol which appears to lead categorisation currently as it would have to be subjected to testing to pass that standard. It doesn't mean that a tire won't perform without that, just that it's passed evaluation, there's tires that are good without that.
If that illustration/picture is to be taken as true, then that tire just looks like a general performance tire with some additional cuts on inside shoulder to assist colder temperature range.
The pirelli question appears to demonstrate the opposite, they don't seem to use the "tpms"symbol but are extensively cut and shaped toward a more winter pattern https://www.pirelli.com/tyres/en-gb/v2/car/find-your-tyres/products-sheet/scorpion-verde-all-season?referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F and so look much more orientated to give snow performance but also don't claim measurement against that standard.
I've not a direct experience of those pirelli, but those details do look like they'd fulfill your use when backed up by chains as a contingency.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@harrim51 Pirelli Scorpions 'all seasons' are standard equipment on Land Rovers and I have seen a few go up and down our steep road when covered with snow, being driven sensibly. I think you should be fine going to Flaine with chains as a backup, especially if your new car is AWD/4WD and you are sensible.
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@Ozboy, AWD/4WD ONLY helps with traction - it is irrelevant when you have to break! Big/bigger SUVs need more distance to stop - proper winter tyres can make a substantial difference! Why the hell people focus on the less relevant part - being stuck or not being able to drive uphill is one thing. Crashing or ending in a ditch is much more serious - 4WD has no advantage in stopping.
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You know it makes sense.
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@mooney058, yes agreed but the question here is whether Scorpoins with chains will be suitable for a one off trip to Flaine. No doubt winters are better but IMO not worth the expense for a one off trip if equipped with chains and drivers are careful. Hence this is reflected in the law and not being mandated in the Haute Savoie.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| mooney058 wrote: |
| @Ozboy, AWD/4WD ONLY helps with traction - it is irrelevant when you have to break! Big/bigger SUVs need more distance to stop - proper winter tyres can make a substantial difference! Why the hell people focus on the less relevant part - being stuck or not being able to drive uphill is one thing. Crashing or ending in a ditch is much more serious - 4WD has no advantage in stopping. |
That statement is patently untrue.
While the tire's grip on any surface trounces virtually all other consideration, and should always come as highest priority, a good 4wd system with someone who knows how to use it will easily outperform both traction control going up, and anti-lock braking going down for ability to control the vehicle.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| ski3 wrote: |
| a good 4wd system with someone who knows how to use |
mass is your enemy on snow and ice but skilled drivers always have an advantage over the unskilled.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| ski3 wrote: |
| mooney058 wrote: |
| @Ozboy, AWD/4WD ONLY helps with traction - it is irrelevant when you have to break! Big/bigger SUVs need more distance to stop - proper winter tyres can make a substantial difference! Why the hell people focus on the less relevant part - being stuck or not being able to drive uphill is one thing. Crashing or ending in a ditch is much more serious - 4WD has no advantage in stopping. |
That statement is patently untrue.
While the tire's grip on any surface trounces virtually all other consideration, and should always come as highest priority, a good 4wd system with someone who knows how to use it will easily outperform both traction control going up, and anti-lock braking going down for ability to control the vehicle. |
Hope we never drive on the same roads at the same time. Pathetic! No amount of electronic wizardry will help when you need to break on snow/ice/slush if tyres are not suited for conditions.
The discussion was about how useful 4x4 on all season tyres is - my reply was it could be ok’ish when moving forward and not OK when breaking - either going at moderate speeds or even low speeds when driving down
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@mooney058, respectfully disagree here as it ultimately comes down to driver not being a d*ick and driving to the conditions and limitations of their car / tyres. I have three neighbours with land or range rovers in our building and they’ve had no issues descending out steep (10pct) access road and gets quite neglected after heavy falls.
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@mooney058, you failed to read that which I write.
My comparison was NOT 4wd against tire grip, but of using that transmission to mitigate adverse conditions against computer control of traction and braking.
There's valuable characteristics within many transmissions of which you seem ignorant, making your comments invalid in most practical senses.
Approach to any hazard plays a huge part in the risk involved, an appreciation of the severity prior to continuing will assist in avoiding loss of control, that's if you are equipped with relevant knowledge in the first place 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Charliegolf wrote: |
| Next new dope Q of the day... Will all-season/winter tyres be marked in a universal way that Mr le Plod can immediately check? Or will there be Gallic shrugs followed by being sent to the naughty step down the hill? |
Not a silly question. There isn't an agreed, international testing standard for what constitutes an all-season tyre. There is a standard for winter tyres, and an associated '3 mountains and snowflake' symbol (3MSF). So you know you're getting a certain minimum winter capability if it thus certified.
Complications are 1. obviously, with no standard test/certification, it's hard to know what you're getting from a vendor selling an 'all season' tyre (although I'd say that big names like Michelin, Pirelli, etc. can be trusted). 2. The 3MSF designation is very broad i.e. like summer tyres, there's a huge variation in quality and bias. 3. Like summer tyres, different winters are biased to different conditions, so you need to do some research to see what specific product best suits what and how you are driving where. 4. some all-seasons are also 3MSF-designated. They are winters in the certification sense, but normally more biased to warmer conditions at the cost of outright snow performance.
M&S doesn't really mean anything. Other than it's got chunky treads which will be good in, errr, mud. M&S does not mean it's a winter tyre in the 3MSF sense. Many manufacturers will stamp their winter tyres with 'M+S' just to cover all bases, but really, it's easier to just ignore the M+S designation.
In any evaluation, I'd say ignore the 'plus chains' element, because you need chains anyway, even if you have winters. Look at the chart and you can see that once you're on snow, what most drivers want is to try and defer fitting chains as long as they can, as conditions get more extreme. Also, we're talking about more than just situations like in the video (where the snow is slowly getting worse): it may be lovely and sunny and not snowing, but that steep/icy/snow-covered drive out of the car park, chalet or apartment block is the problem.
"Will my all-seasons work well enough for my Alpine trip such as to render switching to full winters unnecessary?" is not a question that can be answered here, because it's a risk/cost/benefit analysis based on unknown conditions. Obviously, a vehicle with full winters is going to fare better in more extreme snow conditions than one with all-seasons. How likely are you to encounter these conditions? Who knows? What are the worst-case consequences of a failure of traction in these conditions? Hard to say. Is £1,000 spent on winter wheels and tyres worth it against the probability of their being needed (vs all-seasons)? I can't generalise.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Wed 16-10-19 9:59; edited 1 time in total
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| Ozboy wrote: |
| @mooney058, respectfully disagree here as it ultimately comes down to driver not being a d*ick and driving to the conditions and limitations of their car / tyres. I have three neighbours with land or range rovers in our building and they’ve had no issues descending out steep (10pct) access road and gets quite neglected after heavy falls. |
So the observation based on your neighbours driving up/down on their land/range rovers on access road for a trip to Flaine? You know in advance what the conditions be and that it would be comparable to your neighbours’ driving up and down their access road?
You do need to be a d*ck when you need to hit brakes for variety of reasons at different speeds ... eGGSperts ....
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| ski3 wrote: |
@mooney058, you failed to read that which I write.
My comparison was NOT 4wd against tire grip, but of using that transmission to mitigate adverse conditions against computer control of traction and braking.
There's valuable characteristics within many transmissions of which you seem ignorant, making your comments invalid in most practical senses.
Approach to any hazard plays a huge part in the risk involved, an appreciation of the severity prior to continuing will assist in avoiding loss of control, that's if you are equipped with relevant knowledge in the first place |
Thanks, I was reacting to a statement that AWD and all seasons combo is sufficient. Which is not true when driving in mountains in winter months. It could be sufficient or not.
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@mooney058, no need for the name calling just because we disagree - not cool. Braking a 4WD with all seasons in normal conditions in snow should not cause it to go into a ditch otherwise the alps would be littered with upturned SUV's with GB and NL plates at the bottom of every hill.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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4wd cars are heavier thus stops worse. 4wd gives false sense of security, because it accelerates better than stops on snow. It is of course superior climbing and taking corners, but at stopping it comes down to tire grip. Decent all seasons + sensible driving is good enough. Much worse would be a Subaru driver with best tyres, but trying to copycat rally driver style.
personally never not had a winter tires in winter.
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| Quote: |
the alps would be littered with upturned SUV's
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funny you should say that - sometimes it does feel like that! There are ALWAYS cars in ditches when the weather gets bad and they are often fancy 4WD vehicles. I once pulled a Porsche Cayenne out of a snowdrift with my Fiat Multipla…..
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
the alps would be littered with upturned SUV's
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funny you should say that - sometimes it does feel like that! There are ALWAYS cars in ditches when the weather gets bad and they are often fancy 4WD vehicles. I once pulled a Porsche Cayenne out of a snowdrift with my Fiat Multipla….. |
"My name is Multipla, King of Cars!
Look on my headlamps, ye mighty, and despair."
funny you mention the old Cayenne, I saw one slide right down a hill in Chamrousse hitting various objects before coming to a stop, a hill my 2wd Panda took with no issues. I imagine the Cayenne driver wasn't very good, he wouldn't have bought an SUV if he were.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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No. He was clearly a rubbish driver. French. And the Cayenne has to be the ugliest car ever. The Multipla was almost pretty in comparison. Workmanlike, at any rate. I'd been fine on winter tyres but had to put my chains out to pull him obliquely across the road out of the huge, solid, ploughed-snow bank. He was very grateful. Rang home to say he was delayed. Might have been my imperfect French but I didn't hear him say he'd been towed out of the snow by an elderly English woman in a Multipla. 
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You know it makes sense.
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No, new style Multipla.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Many of those vehicles are very well engineered and completely capable for the conditions IF fitted with competent tires.
There is though a huge hole in certain safety related features that don't often get exposed. If the driver/owner has not bothered with decent tires and their confidence in their vehicle is significantly above the realistic physics capabilities, then faced with a very slippery surface when panic sets in can cause a serious problem.
If in the above circumstances they just stomp on the brakes and hold it with high pedal pressure ( completely natural if you realise you're going to crash) then with all of the wheels locked the ABS ECU is deprived of any wheel rotation information. It just uses differences in this signal / report to enact it's logic and release any slow rotation to make that wheel speed up and match the others. It just looks like the vehicle has come to a halt as far as the ECU is concerned, giving the often observed, pinball to the scene of the accident scenario often reported on here.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Ozboy wrote: |
| @mooney058, no need for the name calling just because we disagree - not cool. Braking a 4WD with all seasons in normal conditions in snow should not cause it to go into a ditch otherwise the alps would be littered with upturned SUV's with GB and NL plates at the bottom of every hill. |
Can you choose “normal” conditions or are they being imposed on you? Re NL and GB plates (and FR, etc) - seen many
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| mooney058 wrote: |
| Ozboy wrote: |
| @mooney058, no need for the name calling just because we disagree - not cool. Braking a 4WD with all seasons in normal conditions in snow should not cause it to go into a ditch otherwise the alps would be littered with upturned SUV's with GB and NL plates at the bottom of every hill. |
Can you choose “normal” conditions or are they being imposed on you? Re NL and GB plates (and FR, etc) - seen many |
No but one can choose how to drive (or not) in prevailing conditions - this is my point. a modern 4WD or large family car with all-season driven to the conditions are fine - might just take a bit longer to reach destination. Drive like an idiot on a snowy mountain road with winter tyres and it will probably will not end well.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Ozboy wrote: |
| mooney058 wrote: |
| Ozboy wrote: |
| @mooney058, no need for the name calling just because we disagree - not cool. Braking a 4WD with all seasons in normal conditions in snow should not cause it to go into a ditch otherwise the alps would be littered with upturned SUV's with GB and NL plates at the bottom of every hill. |
Can you choose “normal” conditions or are they being imposed on you? Re NL and GB plates (and FR, etc) - seen many |
No but one can choose how to drive (or not) in prevailing conditions - this is my point. a modern 4WD or large family car with all-season driven to the conditions are fine - might just take a bit longer to reach destination. Drive like an idiot on a snowy mountain road with winter tyres and it will probably will not end well. |
One can choose to drive as slowly as possible. That is not the point. Accidents do happen in winter like in summer. You never know when you would need to brake hard or avoid an obstacle - it may take a split second when something happens and in most situations 4x4 is not the answer, but proper tyres
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Anyone who has spent much time in snowy, slippery, conditions in the Alps has seen some crazy driving (often by locals, it's not a preserve of foreigners) and SUVs are as prone as other vehicles to get themselves into trouble. Cars abandoned, cars in ditches, cars wedged into the piles of ploughed snow at the side of the road. And people putting chains on in the most ridiculously unsuitable spots. My favourite, on a busy and very snowy transfer day, was somebody who was filling half of a fairly narrow road, putting his chains on. OK, he'd failed to do it at the right time, but then found the car simply refused to continue - maybe he had not choice, BUT we were trying to go the other way, and cars in each direction had to take it in turn to pass the hazard he was creating. A task made more difficult by the fact that his passengers were out of the car, taking up even more of the road and doing nothing useful. When I eventually tried the quietest, most polite, hoot I could make my horn do one woman, standing right in my path carrying a prettily done up box from the local patisserie, looked mortally offended and gave one of those "if looks could kill" which some French women are specially good at. I think a British driver in that situation, and his passengers, would have felt embarrassed and mortified (I certainly would have). But this lot just thought they owned the road.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| mooney058 wrote: |
| Ozboy wrote: |
| mooney058 wrote: |
| Ozboy wrote: |
| @mooney058, no need for the name calling just because we disagree - not cool. Braking a 4WD with all seasons in normal conditions in snow should not cause it to go into a ditch otherwise the alps would be littered with upturned SUV's with GB and NL plates at the bottom of every hill. |
Can you choose “normal” conditions or are they being imposed on you? Re NL and GB plates (and FR, etc) - seen many |
No but one can choose how to drive (or not) in prevailing conditions - this is my point. a modern 4WD or large family car with all-season driven to the conditions are fine - might just take a bit longer to reach destination. Drive like an idiot on a snowy mountain road with winter tyres and it will probably will not end well. |
One can choose to drive as slowly as possible. That is not the point. Accidents do happen in winter like in summer. You never know when you would need to brake hard or avoid an obstacle - it may take a split second when something happens and in most situations 4x4 is not the answer, but proper tyres |
The physics of this area simply against you on this one.
It's clearly demonstarted in rally cars that the 4wd holds significant advantage over any two wheel drive vehicle when surface grip is compromised, that's for traction, lateral loading (cornering) and braking. It's usually by quite some margin too and demonstrated convincingly with absolute numbers to back it up.
A 2wd vehicle has much closer parity with 4wd when the surface grip is at an absolute maximum, and in some cases can hold an advantage.
The principle demonstrated here proves the opposite of what you are saying. Again, have you significant enough knowledge to make those statement?
It's principally linked in fairly basic physical layout of some 4wd systems. The torque under load is driven through all wheels but so is torque reversal (braking load) when an undriven wheel is moderated by abs control it ceases to assist in slowing the vehicle for each iteration. When connected via transmission it can, and does, still assist in taking braking load by enacting the torque through to other tires.
Also a basic principle is that abs interaction only lengthens stopping distance as it can only reduce brake force. Increased control, yes potentially, but pushes vehicle retardation further out from optimum.
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@ski3, Braking function is biased towards the front wheels with the rear providing braking stability so there is no uniform braking torque between front and rear. Secondly the transmission isn't locked, differentials allow wheels to move independently so again the idea that you can transmit the braking torque via the transmission is wrong.
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@ski3, I'm not sure you can apply rally car behaviours to "tourist" cars...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| ski3 wrote: |
| mooney058 wrote: |
| Ozboy wrote: |
| mooney058 wrote: |
| Ozboy wrote: |
| @mooney058, no need for the name calling just because we disagree - not cool. Braking a 4WD with all seasons in normal conditions in snow should not cause it to go into a ditch otherwise the alps would be littered with upturned SUV's with GB and NL plates at the bottom of every hill. |
Can you choose “normal” conditions or are they being imposed on you? Re NL and GB plates (and FR, etc) - seen many |
No but one can choose how to drive (or not) in prevailing conditions - this is my point. a modern 4WD or large family car with all-season driven to the conditions are fine - might just take a bit longer to reach destination. Drive like an idiot on a snowy mountain road with winter tyres and it will probably will not end well. |
One can choose to drive as slowly as possible. That is not the point. Accidents do happen in winter like in summer. You never know when you would need to brake hard or avoid an obstacle - it may take a split second when something happens and in most situations 4x4 is not the answer, but proper tyres |
The physics of this area simply against you on this one.
The principle demonstrated here proves the opposite of what you are saying. Again, have you significant enough knowledge to make those statement? |
Whoever taught you physics did a poor job.
I drive an AWD that can send 90% of power to a single wheel when needed.
I grew up in a place where winter tyres are mandatory. Taken extreme driving courses (theory and practice), practiced controlled skid on frozen lakes and on a race track.
Yes, I driven faster than most on snow covered or slushy roads than most “careful” drivers - always in control and no danger to anyone. More than 25y driving experience on snow every year (half of it meant 3-4 months on snow covered roads).
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| ski3 wrote: |
Also a basic principle is that abs interaction only lengthens stopping distance as it can only reduce brake force. Increased control, yes potentially, but pushes vehicle retardation further out from optimum. |
idiot, but with strong opinion, that's what you are.
Blocked wheels has the longest stopping distance, because slipping friction is less than static friction. You have static friction between tires and road unless you have wheels locked up and sliding. Not only you no longer control the car with wheels locked, but the stopping distance is longer.
The only two cases, when locking the wheels makes stopping distance shorter is snow and sand, where you can build up pile of snow/sand in front of tire when wheels are locked.
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FAQ
