 Poster: A snowHead
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I've skied on sub 14 m radius skis for the past 10 yrs, previously Head xrc1100s at 67mm underfoot that I used on & offpiste, now on Head iRallys at 76mm. Thinking on more offpiste, I've been looking at wider skis, some of the wider skis that I tried at Oktobertest seemed ok so I tried some 2018 Rossi sky7 HDs this week in Tignes. They wre ok osh offpiste and I could feel the rocker doing its job of keeping the tips up but on piste they were truly awful, very unstable on steeper and bumpy runs and the 18m turn radius meant carving turns on reds & blacks was impossible without reaching warp speed unles half the turn was a scraped turn but even then the ski seesawed badly, in short they handled like a tractor with a broken axle on piste. I took them back at lunchtime and took out some Rossi hero short tirns at 12m radius and a ridiculously short 163cm (for me) and happiness was restored.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Short answer: No.
My daily drivers are Blizzard Bonafides, 135, 98, 119, r 16.5. Very impressive on piste, although they need to be carved. I like them a lot.
Also very nice in powder.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I love the mens Dynastar Cham 97 on piste, really nice ski
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@tangowaggon, I think you should be looking at Off piste skis with a bit more "beef", like something from Volkl, Blizzard or Nordica.
I also think you need to have a different mindset. You mustn't concentrate on what you are missing, but what you are gaining.
If like me, you ski off piste a bit Old school, then maybe get a guide, who can get you to go for big, fast, wide, Freeride turns...where these skis really come into their own.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Also, 18m is not ridiculously long radius.
Could the ski be exposing technical deficiencies in the skier?  just sayin’
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Try something with a layer of metal in it (Sin 7 doesn’t) e.g., Atomic Vantage 90, Blizzard Bonafides.
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| under a new name wrote: |
Also, 18m is not ridiculously long radius.
Could the ski be exposing technical deficiencies in the skier? just sayin’ |
I think therin lies the issue, for a piste ski I wouldn't touch anything more than a 14m radius, I'm not into the big gs turns on or offpiste, for me, offpiste is tree skiing, gulleys and technical stuff where I want a ski that turns on a sixpence and most offpiste ski designers aim them at long charging turns down powder fields.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sat 30-12-17 16:56; edited 1 time in total
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@tangowaggon, in that case... drum roll ....you need a pair of Nordica Dobermann FIS SL-Rs (probably the best short radius powder skis in my garage).
Bah boom!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| tangowaggon wrote: |
| under a new name wrote: |
Also, 18m is not ridiculously long radius.
Could the ski be exposing technical deficiencies in the skier? just sayin’ |
I think therin lies the issue, for a piste ski I wouldn't touch anything more than a 14m radius, I'm not into the big gs turns on or offpiste, for me, offpiste is tree skiing, gulleys and technical stuff where I want a ski that turns on a sixpence and most offpiste ski designers aim them at long charging turns down powder fields. |
I’m no offpiste expert, but I don’t think the ski radius comes into the equation in trees and stuff as you are not carving turns...
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| under a new name wrote: |
@tangowaggon, in that case... drum roll ....you need a pair of Nordica Dobermann FIS SL-Rs (probably the best short radius powder skis in my garage).
Bah boom! |
I'm coming to the conclusion that offpiste skis are for those that don't like to turn, after a few days of skiing offpiste, the two of us that had least difficulty were the two of us on piste skis.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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This thread has been up a full hour and a half and nobody's mentioned Whitedot Preachers yet! 112 under foot, traditional camber and around 16m (depending on length) radius. Carve like demon on piste and great in the deep and fluffy. Just don't take them on ice pistes!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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There's nothing more manoeuvrable in a tight spot than a flat cambered ski with rocker both ends - way better than a full camber narrow/short radius ski - but the technique is different, more like skiing bumps so lots of steering/pivoting/retraction type turns which is why a longer radius is better so they're not hooky - but if you don't ski them like that you'll never appreciate the benefit.
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| Themasterpiece wrote: |
| tangowaggon wrote: |
| under a new name wrote: |
Also, 18m is not ridiculously long radius.
Could the ski be exposing technical deficiencies in the skier? just sayin’ |
I think therin lies the issue, for a piste ski I wouldn't touch anything more than a 14m radius, I'm not into the big gs turns on or offpiste, for me, offpiste is tree skiing, gulleys and technical stuff where I want a ski that turns on a sixpence and most offpiste ski designers aim them at long charging turns down powder fields. |
I’m no offpiste expert, but I don’t think the ski radius comes into the equation in trees and stuff as you are not carving turns... |
ski radius is very significant in the trees! Short radius, you ski round them, long radius, you hit them!
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You know it makes sense.
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Get some Salomon QST, Rockr2's or Q98 (or bigger). The Q98's need to be charged a bit on hardpack to work properly. The 122 Rockr just works on everything (albeit a bit tough on the knees in moguls or hardpack). Yet to try the QST's but I imagine being a combination of the Rockr & Q range it should be a fairly powerful ski for every situation.
Soul's definitely don't fit much into an all mountain situation...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| tangowaggon wrote: |
| under a new name wrote: |
@tangowaggon, in that case... drum roll ....you need a pair of Nordica Dobermann FIS SL-Rs (probably the best short radius powder skis in my garage).
Bah boom! |
I'm coming to the conclusion that offpiste skis are for those that don't like to turn, after a few days of skiing offpiste, the two of us that had least difficulty were the two of us on piste skis. |
Sounds more like a mismatch between the skis and snow conditions, and the skiers and the skis. Where you in proper deep powder, or just not on the piste?
There is also a big difference between straight line big mountain 'freeride' skis, and powder skis.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| On the rocks wrote: |
| This thread has been up a full hour and a half and nobody's mentioned Whitedot Preachers yet! 112 under foot, traditional camber and around 16m (depending on length) radius. Carve like demon on piste and great in the deep and fluffy. Just don't take them on ice pistes! |
I tried then on the oktobertest, my least liked ski of the event, wouldnt touch them with a bargepole.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| tangowaggon wrote: |
| .......ski radius is very significant in the trees! Short radius, you ski round them, long radius, you hit them! |
I couldn't disagree with you more. See my post above.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| I also think you need to have a different mindset. You mustn't concentrate on what you are missing, but what you are gaining. |
Certainly an element of this. A dedicated off-piste ski is not going to perform like a dedicated on-piste ski when you are skiing on the piste. Ski selection is always about making compromises - the more a ski is designed to perform well in one particular setting the bigger the compromise when it is outside of that setting.
If you want a turnier ski when skiing in deeper snow maybe think of going for something a bit softer so it bends more easily, tightening the turn that way rather than looking for a tight r geometry.
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| spyderjon wrote: |
| There's nothing more manoeuvrable in a tight spot than a flat cambered ski with rocker both ends - way better than a full camber narrow/short radius ski - but the technique is different, more like skiing bumps so lots of steering/pivoting/retraction type turns which is why a longer radius is better so they're not hooky - but if you don't ski them like that you'll never appreciate the benefit. |
I tend to ski bumps a bit faster than that, catch a little air off the bump, flick the skis round then carve the trough but this technique doesn't seem to work well with long radius skis.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
ski radius is very significant in the trees! Short radius, you ski round them, long radius, you hit them!
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Not really, you aren’t carving. I’ve skied trees on a 30m ski, it’s not fun at all but in powder I’m just skidding/stivoting them around anyway
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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What is meant by "hooky"
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problem could be that you have spent a long time skiing a similar type of ski mostly on piste. I would suggest that you need to be skiing different types of skis and trying to adjust your style of skiing to get the best out of them. You wont enjoy this at first especially on piste but if you persevere I think you will as you are a good skier. I tried a pair of blizzard brahma's at the EoSB where conditions were firm on and off piste and thought they were great fun although not as precise as my SL's.
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I must add that I am currently in BSM steadily getting pi55ed, still in my ski boots waiting for my train home.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| tangowaggon wrote: |
| I must add that I am currently in BSM steadily getting pi55ed, still in my ski boots waiting for my train home. |
If you're at Charlie's tell Christophe I'll see him in March and keep the Duvels cold!
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@tangowaggon, I'm pretty sure the posts about radius have been focusing on off piste and powder stuff; not hard bumps or tracks through the trees.
I agree with @spyderjon, the more you use your legs, the more you get out of the ski.
I'm playing about with some 2008 Big Daddy's that I grabbed off of ebay for €80.
41m radius
125 underfoot
Very slight tip rocker.
A ski for your quiver really but I can handle them on piste but wouldn't choose them for a piste based day out!
I just use them on freshy days and have really got into mucking about with tight tree lines too!
They aren't so good on roads though.... (ask Waynos about that  )
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| On the rocks wrote: |
| This thread has been up a full hour and a half and nobody's mentioned Whitedot Preachers yet! 112 under foot, traditional camber and around 16m (depending on length) radius. Carve like demon on piste and great in the deep and fluffy. Just don't take them on ice pistes! |
Fiiiiinally !! Im with you on that one my friend, Im a chamonix seasonaire and my one and only pair of skis are ... you guessed it ! whitedot preachers, Incredible in the fluffy stuff and yet still perfectly perfect on piste, granted wide skis are not for everybody however i urge every single one of you to grab a pair of fattys and slay some pow !
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| tangowaggon wrote: |
| Themasterpiece wrote: |
| tangowaggon wrote: |
| under a new name wrote: |
Also, 18m is not ridiculously long radius.
Could the ski be exposing technical deficiencies in the skier? just sayin’ |
I think therin lies the issue, for a piste ski I wouldn't touch anything more than a 14m radius, I'm not into the big gs turns on or offpiste, for me, offpiste is tree skiing, gulleys and technical stuff where I want a ski that turns on a sixpence and most offpiste ski designers aim them at long charging turns down powder fields. |
I’m no offpiste expert, but I don’t think the ski radius comes into the equation in trees and stuff as you are not carving turns... |
ski radius is very significant in the trees! Short radius, you ski round them, long radius, you hit them! |
You're skiing them wrong. It's like Shane said: https://www.evo.com/what-is-so-special-about-the-volant-spatula-powder-ski-how-do-i-ski-the-spatulas
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| Quote: |
What is meant by "hooky"
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A ski that “bites” at the start of the turn. Usually a ski that’s been sharpened correctly, and not detuned at the tips
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You know it makes sense.
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| moseyp wrote: |
| Quote: |
What is meant by "hooky"
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A ski that “bites” at the start of the turn. Usually a ski that’s been sharpened correctly, and not detuned at the tips |
Yes & no. When referring to the tune of the ski then yes that's correct.
When taking about off-piste ski geometry in 3D snow (ie when snow is on top and to the sides of the ski as opposed to just underneath it like on a firm piste) the sidecut/turn radius of the ski is effectively reduced and can cause an over-turning affect which can pull the tip of the ski around - which sounds helpfull but it can make it harder to keep equal('ish) weighting etc. The ski also feels more locked in to the turn and is harder to slarve/smear etc. Read the "Unstable Hooker" section of the above Shane McConkey article.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Two different beasts for two different jobs.
Powder skis are wide, flat and designed to float and turn using the whole surface. Piste skis are designed to turn by digging in the edge. Two different dynamics for two different situations.
Having seen Tangowagen ski - very technical and powerful, carving every turn, I can see why fat skis just don't cut it - literally. There's also quite a strong argument for wide skis causing knee problems on piste.
I can see why this is so. Coaches often talk of being ' stacked ' when carving, with a line of force from the hips, to knees to feet to ski. Wi6h your edges pushed out to one side, it's easy to see how the lin4 of for e generated from the body is not Going to be in line with the inside edge and this will reduce effectiveness.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| tangowaggon wrote: |
I tend to ski bumps a bit faster than that, catch a little air off the bump, flick the skis round then carve the trough but this technique doesn't seem to work well with long radius skis. |
If you want fast... competition mogul skiers compete on skis with a long turn radius.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sat 30-12-17 22:31; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| cameronphillips2000 wrote: |
| Two different beasts for two different jobs.... |
+1
If you don't want to compromise, specialise.
Mind you, Whitedot One weren't too bad on piste; worth a try.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The Shane McConkey article is qjite interesting, I can't say I've ever come across the unstable hooker, I normally ski on both skis, frequently turning on the inner ski if the outer ski loses its edge. As a water skier as well as a snow skier I have frequently compared my water ski and snow skis and thought about the similarities of powder snow to water.
The reality is that unless you are in the mountains for the season, the days where pure powder skis are enjoyable are very few and far between.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Didn't have any issues using my Bentchetlers for a few days when my MX88's blew an edge out in Verbier last year. Rock hard ice on some of the pistes, moguls and the like. Not a drop of powder in sight, for a 123mm waisted ski they are very good on piste for the size and rocker.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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To answer the question (although we have been through this before)... my Preachers are far from rotten on piste, in fact they're rather great. And they're also really rather good off piste. And they're definitely 'wide'.
So I think you need to stop trying to convince yourself that wide skis are a problem. I think you need to accept the fact that the actual problem is you can't find any skis which you like. Which is a whole different issue!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@dp, on the contrary, I've been a skinny skier for the past 32 years and everyone is now raving about fat skis so I think I want to try some but they don't suit my piste style because they are wide. You and others say wide skis are as good on piste as off but I agree with Cameron and others that say it's horses for courses.
With the kind of edge pressure I use on piste, the 96mm sky7s place very uncomfortable pressure on the side of my boot leg and now see why northerngeezer who skis on soul7s never uses his edges.
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| moseyp wrote: |
| Quote: |
ski radius is very significant in the trees! Short radius, you ski round them, long radius, you hit them!
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Not really, you aren’t carving. I’ve skied trees on a 30m ski, it’s not fun at all but in powder I’m just skidding/stivoting them around anyway |
Hmm I've been lucky enough to ski with a couple of guys with legit claims to be on the best skiers in the world table and neither skied trees or bumps in a carving manner like radius meant a damn (and both were on freeride width skis)
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We were joined by another snowhead for the last two days who normally skis the same iRallys as I do and at the same pace, this time he brought his other head skis that were wider underfoot and longer radius and it was like skiing with a different skier, he was left behind on every run, on or off piste.
I'll see what selection of test skis are available on my next trip and see how it goes. With so many people extoling the virtues of fat skis, there must be something in it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@tangowaggon, there’s your answer, “I've been a skinny skier for the past 32 years ”.
It wasn’t until I modified and updated my 40 years skinny ski technique to use modern skis properly that I began to get the full performance out of modern wider skis on piste.
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@under a new name, that does seem to be the problem, I have got used to modern short radius skis where I aim to carve every turn, going onto fatter skis with bigger radii I'm having to relearn the 1980s technique of smearing and skidding tighter turns.
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FAQ
