71% of skiers go 'out of their depth' - insurance report

A snowHead

Opinion research released by Direct Line Travel Insurance [yes - it's another insurance scare press release!] states that 71% of skiers admit to attempting runs that are too difficult for them.

For advanced skiers the figures are higher - 86% of them admit to skiing slopes "they were unable to cope with".

This report from ifyouski.com.

Do you scare yourself on slopes you should have avoided?
Do 'insurance scare articles' terrify you?
Are you immune to danger and totally fearless?
Are you insured against your own stupidity? [the question they want you to answer!]
[that's enough questions - Ed.]

A snowHead

I think you always have to push yourself a little, otherwise you would never get off the nursery slopes

1) Yes I do scare myself a little, but rarely do anything really stupid.
2) Insurance articles do not terrify me.
3) I am not immume to danger
4) I believe I am insured upto my level of stupidity wink

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

If you don't push the envelope then how are you ever going to figure out where your limits are?
The only criterion that you really should apply is: If I do this run, and I take a tumble, am I going to hurt myself or kill myself. Basically that means that you can attempt just about any piste as long as the snow is soft and grippy enough that you will be able to stop yourself when you fall. If it's icy then think again.
Off piste is a different story. Aside from avalanches there are a host of other bad things that can happen and you really need to know what you are skiing into before you do it, or have someone with you who knows the terrain. For example I once nearly fell into a crevasse on the Albona (St.Anton)! You would never have known it was there, and the first thing I knew about it was when the snow suddenly disappeared under me Shocked

By pure luck I didn't actually fall into it, but...!

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Always ski with your insurance broker

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

I'm not sure that I attempt runs that are too difficult for me. I do go on runs that I find challenging, but if we didn't do that then we would never get any better. I've never been on a slope that I've been unable to cope with, I always get down, even if on occassion it's taken me a very long time to do it.

I would like to see the wording of the questions on this questionnaire.

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'Winter sports' insurance costs more because of the dangers invloved, which is fair enough, and now insurance companies probably want to take the danger out of it..I hate insurance companies, sadly a necessary evil!!

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

I never push the envelope, always skiing within myself. I have no scope for further knee injury and dont wish to jeapordise my time left on the snow. Just because you dont push the envelope doesn't mean that you can't improve and tackle harder slopes. It just means that you do it more slowly.

After all it is free

My big problem - I don't go out of my depth. When faced with a blue or a red alternative (I'm invariably in control of the navigating round the pistes wink

) I'll say the blue is the route to take. I had to make myself not say anything on our last hols and if Mr C said the red then I went down the red (mind you, I found in Saalbach that some blues were tougher than the reds). I made myself do a tinsy black and boy did I go down cautiously..... Laughing

I think I need to make myself see reds as the norm with blacks to aim for, rather than blues as the norm Very Happy

Cathy Coins, Do you not find that at the start of the week you will look to blue, but as the week progresses reds and even black come into the equation.

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Insurers use statistics like drunken men use lamposts - for support rather than illumination.

It starts by saying that 9% have accidents, then goes on to say that almost a third have accidents. Does this mean that 1/3 have an accident over their skiing career, whereas 9% will have an accident in any one season? or trip? This would mean that the 1/3 that have the accidents will be having all the 9% of accidents each year. We have been going as a family for 5 years, 5 people, and only last year did we have 2 accidents. If you work it out on a per-trip (week) basis, then it works out at an 8% accident rate.

It means we can go like crazy this year then since we're not due for another just yet...

Do we scare ourselves on slopes we could have avoided? You bet. Were our accidents a result of this? No.

Why not avoid all slopes and stay in the chalet.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

I would like to be "out of my depth". Please let it snow soon.

snow reports

A case of "out of context" gone wild or what. Be careful about how you construe this one - especially as the definition of "A slope they were unable to cope with" requires a bit of finessing.

a) Wobbling down a slope within your skill capablities albeit stretching them some, and probably falling down at least once withouth serious injury, but is enough out of your comfort zone to make you feel as if it's a big deal. Which is normal.

b) Litterally "unable to cope with a slope" due to injury on said slope. Frequently self-induced in over-enthusatic skiers who refuse to be realistic about their actual skill level.

A) and B) are really just different ends of the scale, but what's the point arguing A) when for all intents and purposes an insurance company is really only interested in B)?

You know it makes sense.

Ditto to Manda,

I frequently try slopes down which I can only make 3 or 4 turns before needing to stop and reassesss, however I cant remember the last time I ended up on a slope which I thought to myself "im just going to have to slide down this on my bum". That said, I have seen a couple of the latter this week and it has been snowboarders on steepish moguls each time.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

yes I attempt runs that are difficult - how the hell else do you learn and put into practise the techniques you've been mastering and practising on easy slopes?????

A snowHead

A snowHead

ajhainey,

ah that did make me laugh!

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Do you scare yourself on slopes you should have avoided?

I've even managed to scare myself on button lifts I should have avoided Embarassed

Got my elastic jacket cord wrapped round one and the next thing I knew I was dumped on the ground having been hit by something. Didn't even know which way was up...

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clara_jo, welcome to Snowheads!

I scare myself in bars, let alone skiing. "What do you mean a tequila-vodka-grappa red-bull?, is that a TV-grrr-Arrr?"

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Over-terraining is a great way to become (or stay) a terminal intermediate....

what you practice as a movement pattern becomes ingrained...ingrained is hard to change.... IMO skiing stuff that is making you wobbly & causing you to fall all the time or need to stop every few turns is NOT a great way to improve....

Practice technique on comfortable terrain... then turn it up a notch... then back to the comfortable terrain... repeat

Cathy - you seem to have my problem - need to stretch self a little.... not easy but need to do it huh?

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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

damn - how did I find myself agreeing with you Razz

Am giving up and signing off now anyway so will have to concede defeat on the other thread - all hail cert 1s! wink

aj xx

The last two private lessons that I've had revolved around taking me on slopes that I found frighteningly steep. Both instructors were of the opinion that once you reach a certain level, practicing your technique on comfortable slopes was no longer sufficient, and that you had to push your envelope in other ways, either in terms of terrain, or by increasing speed and racing through gates.

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Kramer, fair point - was thinking of general holiday skier level beginner to reasonable intermediate - where the 'wobbly' runs would be standard pisted blues/red/blacks, not more advanced skiing where the rules are probably different. <darn it..must..log...off...computer.....>

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

ajhainey, fair point also, although in some cases, having successfully negotiated a black can provide a confidence boost that makes blues or reds seem far less steep and intimidating. It does seem to be a case of kill or cure.

snow reports

Kramer - I am known for being a chicken... my instructors are ALWAYS pushing me either speed/technique/or terrain wise(that is what they are paid to do)..... BUT they do not ski me (most of the time) on terrain that I am wobbling & falling down on or cannot link more than a couple of turns without stopping... we ski comfortable & the venture into harder & then back to work on the weak spots.... then again I have los of weak spots

Would also like to comment that you can actually up the ante technically on quite moderate terrain without speed - just make the thing you are trying to do harder.... plus it can be quite hard to execute some turns at slower speed... momentum is your friend and aids turning.... slow parallel turns are harder than with a little speed (done well)... try staying in the tracks that an instructor lays down for this purpose & keeping parallel & sames nice clean slow turns are not quite that simple....

You know it makes sense.

I dont know if anyone will agree, but surely once you can carve confidently on a nicely groomed, moderate slope, you have the general technique for steeper slopes. When you first try such steeper slopes, you cant help by be wobbly.... but you would be wasting your money by getting lessons to make this step, effectively you would be paying for no more than moral support!

In this instance, you may well be wobbly, but not necessarily out of your depth.

Anecdotal I know, but watching others, most do not appear out of their depth. They may be wobbling, trying new terrain, but most are doing it cautiously and are not causing an enormous danger. The exception (to me) generally appears to be groups of males (more often younger).

The important point to me is that a skier who is cautiously trying something new, aware that this is pushing their abilities is not the problem. It is the skier who does not appreciate their own limits and therefore tries anything presented to them. I suspect this would not be a fair description of most 'holiday' skiers!

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I don't see very many who can carve... let alone confidently on moderate slopes....

Carve = TWO CLEAN tracks not one sort of smeared thingy that may or not be vaguely arc like but is more likely a sort of straightish angled line......

A snowHead

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

SimonN,

Couldn't agree more. Our Topski instructor at Val this Christmas 'Eric' (who by the way is an ex French Mogul champion and olympic team coach) explained to us that while 'carving' had its place, it was actually loosing favour these days in a 'backlash' effect. He reckoned that it had become too popular with skiers and many instructors resulting in people believing that it was the only 'right way' to ski. In fact in his opinion the 'old' technique of bend, extend, combined with pole plants was the best way to negotiate steeps or powder, or bumps, or in fact anywhere that required tighter turns (for direction or speed control). Carving was fine on big gentle swooping pistes but elsewhere, plant that pole!

I'm not qualified to judge if he was right or not, but he certainly improved our skiing confidence. Me and Mrs Ax did our first black and coming back to the point of this thread, I'm with those that believe you should practice technique on easy wide slopes, then push your limits a little on steeper/narrower stuff. It all comes down to whether 'pushing your limits' involves going 'out of your depth' or just a little further than you've been before.

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buns, wobbly yes (ie a few careful turns, one with your balance a bit off, stop, take breather, reconsider line) yes - everyone needs to do this now and again to see where their limits are, although I don't think it's how you improve your technical skiing, more the confidence side of things. Wobbly enough that you expect to take a fall or two? No, IMO you're a danger and a nuisance to others at that point.

Each to their own though - and the internet makes discussions like this hard anyway- much easier if you can actually see each other ski...

AxsMan, agree with that too - for me at least carving is something to be attempted on wide open and relatively empty pistes only. If you become constrained in anyway, then at my skill level at least, it's frankly dangerous to even try...

aj xx

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

David Goldsmith

Sorry, old chap, but you are right and wrong! You are right that gravity accelerates you but wrong that a carved turn slows you less than a skidded turn. Its a matter of science!

When you carve a proper turn, you effective weight increases due to the g-force. So, Imagine you are going straight down a hill and then you start your carve. If you get no slid the g-forces on the ski increase from the dowhill attitude and as this force cannot go down any more (because of the carve) it is translated into forward motion.

We do an excerise that shows this. We set one person as the "hare" and it is their job to go straight down the fall line, standing in a skiing position so as to have the same air resistance as the rest. Then we set off and once up to speed, the rest of us carve turns. If you are good enough, your speed made good down the mountain is the same as the skier in the fall line. This shows that, as the distance skied by those turning is greater than the person on the fall line, they are going faster and this is due to the accelration out of the turn.

You need to be good to be able to do it properly. You need to be redistributing your weight before, during and at the end of each turn to get maximum speed. Stangely (see other thread) you need to be able to do racing carves!

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AxsMan

I have known Eric for many years and you were in really good hands. I have skied with the Zimmers and TopSki for about 20 years. Although I have never been guided by him, i have done some free skiing with Eric and he is truely remarkable. But then again, so are most of the TopSki team.

I believe that there is no such thing as "you only need one turn". Having a wide range of different turns increases your confidence as it means you have something to use whatever the conditions and angle of slope.

Carving is great fun and for many its added a whole new dimension to their skiing. However, I personally would use carved turns less than 10% of the time, usually when I am in a hurry such as when following a topSki guide and we want to be first to some new powder snowHead

However, I think that for many the short swing turn is the best thing to purfect if you are looking to ski more difficult runs. You can as good as come to a halt between each turn if you want to and can control speed to the finest degree.

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SimonN, I believe it's similar to the effect that alllows sailing boats to go faster than the wind that's pushing them, and if you'eve ever water skied (behind a power boat) you'll be familiar with the speeding up that occurs when you cut across the wake, the boat travels in a straight line, and you follow a series of esses behind it so you must be going faster as you cover twice the distance in the same time.

In downhill skiing the motive power is provided by gravity (as DG says) but acceleration can be supplied by the force generated by a carving turn, except if it's me that's trying to apply it because that normally ends in a nose plant. Very Happy

After all it is free

SimonN,

Hi Simon, Our posts crossed so my water skiing one was in reply to your first one to DG if you follow me. Yes Eric was a great guy, and a VERY inspirational teacher. His thoughts on carving echoed yours above.

Cheers

SimonT

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Well he was still looking fit and well when I last saw him (Dec 27th) Very Happy

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71% of skiers go 'out of their depth' - insurance report

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