 Poster: A snowHead
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@Alastair Pink, +1 completely agree with your assessment of Cairngorm.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I posted this in 2011 so there might have been some changes since then (fat chance)
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was that the last time you actually went?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I first went to Aviemore with my family around 1974. We stayed in the Badenoch Hotel, where there was some sort of promotion on...I think it was around 50 GBP all in. I can't remember if they were trying to get Aviemore more known, or if it was the opening of the Badenoch.
We arrived in a blizzard and had great snow that week.
Trying to repeat the experience a couple of years later, was less successful...wet, windy, cold, icy and I broke my leg skiing in the rain.
I think it works best for locals, who can hop in a car at the drop of a hat, to take advantage of when the conditions are favorable.
I can't tell you the number of times, when skiing in a group in Europe, where people were moaning about the ice...there was a Scot there saying, "That's no' ice, you should try skiing in Scotland!"
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@geeo, @Bigtipper, @Alastair Pink, Thanks for the suggestions. I didn't realise Glenshee was so close so may be swayed towards there if I can get a lift (car rental is pretty extortionate for me otherwise) - they only seem to have direct buses from Aberdeen though. Are there any public transport connections from Braemar (I know it's only a short drive)?
Yes would definitely hope for midweek, that's the advantage of having a student timetable...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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From my perspective when I was studying in Aberdeen, the big issue was woeful and expensive public transport. Shouldn't be that hard to co-ordinate the Aviemore bus timetable so that the ski bus would leave after the train gets in rather than a few minutes before. As it was - then at least, no idea now - even getting the first train at silly o'clock in Aberdeen you'd have an hour wait in Aviemore and wouldn't get to the slopes before 11 or later (and similar problems on the way back).
And like all UK public transport, it wasn't cheap either!
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@hebejeebie, have you looked at the city car club in Dundee? cheap rates for hourly or daily rental, various locations around town, and you should easily be able to find chums to fill the car/ share the costs with...
Not sure whether you're a Dundee or Abertay student. If the former then consider joining the snowsports club or rucksack club, if you haven't already - either club should get you in touch with other students keen to have fun on snowy mountains; when I was at Dundee (not recently) there certainly was an active cohort of Rucksack folk who were keen on ski trips (despite the club's more obvious interest in mountaineering/ hillwalking/ climbing etc). If you're at Abertay then I don't know the club situation but there's bound to be something.
Also you could try posting on Winterhighland or the Glenshee facebook page to look for liftshares. There will be other folk (whether students or not) heading to the ski slopes from Dundee.
Glenshee is barely over an hour from Dundee, it's a grand day out.
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Skiing in Scotland - how can it be improved (facilities, transport, marketing etc)?
Move it to where there are proper mountains and proper snow and decent weather?
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@Haggis_Trap,
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Scotland is a different country to you
Though don't let the fact you have never skied up here stop you from sharing your opinion.
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I have a suspicion that most English regard all four 'nations' as being part of the same country and most Scots like to think of Scotland being a separate country. It all depends how you define a country but this thread isn't the place for that discussion, so let's leave it at that. As for 'sharing my opinion' I would have thought that as the question is specifically about how one might encourage more people to ski in Scotland then the views of someone who doesn't currently ski in Scotland would be extremely valid.
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The best way to appreciate Scottish ski resorts is to appreciate what they are.
A bunch of small local resorts mainly frequented by day trippers / weekenders rather than holiday makers.
Those who live in northern part of UK (within driving distance) are lucky enough to be able to ski on mountains at short notice without jumping on a plane.
This will always be the core audience. Most winters I get to ski ~25-30 days on Scottish snow (plus the odd holiday away to alps).
Which means that skiing gets to become a sport rather than occasional holiday activity.
Of course places like Meri-hell and Val D'espair are great for a weeks holiday - but comparing them to Scottish ski resorts totally misses the point / audience.
However that is likely how the rest of the thread will be go
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I don't disagree with most/all of what you say above, and I, for one, never compared Scotland to other resorts. However, a comparison is often inevitable because for most of us there are alternative ski resorts and alternative ways to spend your time/money
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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It ain't rocket science.
Scottish skiing needs some razzmatazz.
First, you gotta fix the godawful resort websites, webcams and social media.
Second, you gotta fix the godawful transport links.
Third, you gotta coat the entire mountain in snowguns.
Fourth, you gotta coat the entire mountain in trees. Reduce the wind. Slow the melt. Pretty it up.
Fifth, you gotta sell online, onphone and onwatch lift tickets.
Sixth, you gotta tidy up the carparking and bus-stops.
Seventh, you gotta dramatically improve the available snow reports, snowfall reports, weather forecasts and trailmaps.
Eighth, you gotta get the resorts on local and national TV, radio and YouTube on a daily to weekly basis.
Ninth, you gotta make it much easier to book accommodation and weekend hotel-ski packages.
Tenth, you gotta do flash-sales on liftpasses or hotels during low periods, like January or midweek.
Ten steps to growth. It ain't rocket science.
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Id love to give it a try, It looks kind of different vissually.
But as someone who living in London, with a snowboard it's a matter of practicality and cost. I would be looking at the sleeper train, then car hire. which easily comes to a few hundred quid or so return. People suggest waiting till the weather right then Go Go Go, but that's very expensive to book ( and Id not fancy the 10 hour overnight drive). I could probably get to a bunch of alpine resorts quicker and cheaper with easyjet.
Its a shame, Id love to give it a whirl; if there were some kind of last minute coach trip that left from London when the weather was good and went right to the centers without overcharging Id do that. Even if it would be uncomfortable. Or the sleeper was a bit cheaper.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Made the trip 4 times to snowboard in Scotland (and once to climb Ben Nevis) from the midlands and enjoyed them all. One trip we were stood in the queue having bought day passes at aviemore to be told the train wouldn't run (headed to Lecht instead), another time Nevis range got closed at lunch time due to high winds and another time we got no riding in at all (to much snow to open roads)...and given the chance this season I'd be up there in a shot.
I think if you are a diy type Scotland is as an exciting trip as anywhere, if your a tour operator type your not going to enjoy the unpredictable events Scotland can throw at you.
Having used planes, trains and cars on my trips I do feel Fort William could hype up the "ski bus". Having used the train to get to FW we needed to get the bus to get to Nevis range, although we found it ok it would be easier if they had a flashy ski bus sign in the bus station so it was obvious which stand was used...especially if were expecting an influx of Icelandic skiers to our slopes soon.
Just finally, I've never heard of anyone who makes the effort to head up there say a bad word about it however terrible the trip goes. I guess you either do it or you don't, however much marketing they put in place!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Neil Neige,
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- Promote the fact that the sleeper train to FW and Aviemore actually gives you more time on the slopes than a similar trip to the Alps, after a full day's work on a Friday, for example. The first flight from Gatwick won't get you to the Alpine airport til 10, and you'll struggle to ski before midday. With the sleeper train to Aviemore, you could be on the slopes by 9
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That's not an entirely fair comparison. I just had a quick look at the two alternatives discussed and the results were as follows:
London to Aviemore by train: Cheapest ticket seems to be >£160
London to Geneva by plane: Multiple flights available from both BA and Swiss that will get you into the resort by 10-11pm that night. Flight costs start at £86 with many options available below £100. Even when you include transfer costs the GVA option is the same sort of price or cheaper.
Those examples were for the w/e of 6-8 January 2016. Obviously the devil is in the detail and there are pros and cons to both options and depends exactly where you are starting from, but it's unfair to say definitively that the sleeper option gives more time skiing.
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Different question, but bearing in mind that many people seem to grumble that the lift queues can be bad when the weather is good, then how much unexploited capacity actually exists?
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You know it makes sense.
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It's understandable that lots of holiday skiers want the mountains moved or the weather to be like spring all year, if you only ski a few days a year and your vin chaud is just as important as your ski days and the ability to tell folks you go skiing, then naturally you will choose the safe option.
Scotland's target market is not southern England and never will be, living here and being able to go at a moments notice is a luxury lots of you just don't have, thank f***
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@escooler, you could look at Gatwick (or Luton) to Inverness flights, if you want to ski Cairngorm, or flights to Aberdeen for Glenshee. There are cheap tickets out there, we picked up a couple of oneway Inverness-Luton 2 days before departure for 40 odd quid each, and you get to make a full weekend of it 
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Poster: A snowHead
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@foxtrotzulu, for that weekend you can leave Gatwick at 18:55, arrive Inverness 20:35 for £32.49. Leave Inverness 06:45 on monday to arrive in Gatwick at 08:20 for £9.49.
Bargain.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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the ease of communicating in your own language, familiar shoe sizes at the rental place, no need to continuously be converting from euros to pounds for food/drinks/lift passes etc.
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I worked in the highlands many years ago and though I could understand the locals most of the Glaswegians who I worked with spoke a completly different language. Shoe sizes are common across Europe. I beleive it is only the USA that has a different system. And with the way the pound is going there is no need to convert between Sterling and Euros.
We investigated getting the sleeper last year for a weekend (you can pick it up in Crewe) it was in fact cheeper to fly to Geneva and hire a car for the weekend.
But the real problem with going skiing in Scotland is that the other activities are just so enticing. I would want to do some winter mountaineering.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Whitegold wrote: |
It ain't rocket science.
Scottish skiing needs some razzmatazz.
First, you gotta fix the godawful resort websites, webcams and social media.
Second, you gotta fix the godawful transport links.
Third, you gotta coat the entire mountain in snowguns.
Fourth, you gotta coat the entire mountain in trees. Reduce the wind. Slow the melt. Pretty it up.
Fifth, you gotta sell online, onphone and onwatch lift tickets.
Sixth, you gotta tidy up the carparking and bus-stops.
Seventh, you gotta dramatically improve the available snow reports, snowfall reports, weather forecasts and trailmaps.
Eighth, you gotta get the resorts on local and national TV, radio and YouTube on a daily to weekly basis.
Ninth, you gotta make it much easier to book accommodation and weekend hotel-ski packages.
Tenth, you gotta do flash-sales on liftpasses or hotels during low periods, like January or midweek.
Ten steps to growth. It ain't rocket science. |
Conceptually, you are not wrong with these, however money is incredibly tight for these resorts - one bad season kills them and even the purchase of an old ratty groomer is cause for celebration.
I live in Edinburgh and have skied in this country since I was a kid - school teachers used to do ski patrol in glenshee so we wee up there a lot - also weekends up in Cairngorms.
But as I have got older, the prospect of horizontal sleet, queues and poor snow quality have put me off.
Last time I was up in Aviemore for a new year (one of the years of incredible snow) and had all the gear - but they kept turning cars back at Glenmore because there was too much snow and there was no other way of accessing the hill.
That frustration breeds a "why should I bother?" attitude
I might try and get a few days in during the week next Jan ahead of the trip to Tignes, but it would have to be a bluebird day after a massive dump
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| dode wrote: |
@foxtrotzulu, for that weekend you can leave Gatwick at 18:55, arrive Inverness 20:35 for £32.49. Leave Inverness 06:45 on monday to arrive in Gatwick at 08:20 for £9.49.
Bargain. |
Absolutely, although the point still remains that going to Aviemore doesn't get you any more time on the slopes (from London) than going to the Alps.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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To answer the opening post, I'd suggest that there is much to be gained of if the resorts were more outward looking. Be more 'tourist' rather than 'local' focused. It wouldn't cost much but could make a huge difference.
I usually make an annual pilgrimage to Fort William, always ski Glencoe and sometimes ski Nevis and occasionally Cairgorm. If you are a 'skier' then Scotland should be on your list.
I wrote up a trip report from our first trip discussing much the same which prompted some discussion:
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=1509161&highlight=scottish#1509161
And another TR from snowball with more of an offpiste focus.
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewpost.php?p=926485
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Tue 1-11-16 14:02; edited 1 time in total
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The Alps are great for skiing holidays.
Scotland is great for skiing. 
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But as I have got older, the prospect of horizontal sleet, queues and poor snow quality have put me off.
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Middle age is when your broad mind and narrow waist begin to change places.
E. Joseph Cossman
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No matter how much you improve things. the problem is that if you have one precious week's skiing per year, would you choose Scotland?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| geeo wrote: |
It's understandable that lots of holiday skiers want the mountains moved or the weather to be like spring all year, if you only ski a few days a year and your vin chaud is just as important as your ski days and the ability to tell folks you go skiing, then naturally you will choose the safe option.
Scotland's target market is not southern England and never will be, living here and being able to go at a moments notice is a luxury lots of you just don't have, thank f*** |
Ignoring the rather patronising tone of your first sentence, I think your second sentence is exactly the point some of us have been trying to make. There's nothing 'wrong' with Scottish skiing but it's never going to be a hugely popular location for people living south of the Midlands and it would be a complete waste of time and money to try and make it so. I've never skiied inScotland, but from what I've read then it sounds like you don't want to try and market the area to people coming for a weekend (when it's pretty full anyway) but to maximise utilisation on good weather mid-week days. To do that you surely have to focus on flash-sales and make the best use of soical media to encourage maximum usage at the shortest possible notice. Better use of dynamic pricing as well?
What I don't know is whether a viable business model is actually possible given the inherent constraints.
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| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| No matter how much you improve things. the problem is that if you have one precious week's skiing per year, would you choose Scotland? |
If you are in NI and the forecast looks good you are a ferry ride away from a day or 2's extra skiing ?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
| However, a comparison is often inevitable because for most of us there are alternative ski resorts and alternative ways to spend your time/money |
| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
| dode wrote: |
@foxtrotzulu, for that weekend you can leave Gatwick at 18:55, arrive Inverness 20:35 for £32.49. Leave Inverness 06:45 on monday to arrive in Gatwick at 08:20 for £9.49.
Bargain. |
Absolutely, although the point still remains that going to Aviemore doesn't get you any more time on the slopes (from London) than going to the Alps. |
Yip - London is about as far from mountains as you can be in Europe
Now if I lived in the south of England I would ski in the alps too.
I would also likely ski many fewer days than I currently enjoy AND need to get on a plane everytime I did it.
London is roughly equidistant from Fort William and Morzine.
Clearly it would be utterly futile for Scottish ski resorts to market themselves to skiers living that far away.
The core market for Scottish resorts is the ~5 million people living in Scotland and ~10 million in north of England.
These people are all within day / weekend trip-able distance and can take advantage whenever conditions turn good.
With the internet / modern weather forecasts and web cams it has never been easier to plan a Scottish ski trip.
Scottish snowsports has made a real comeback over last decade : with new investment at all the resorts (cairngorm / natural retreats politics aside).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| AndAnotherThing.. wrote: |
| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| No matter how much you improve things. the problem is that if you have one precious week's skiing per year, would you choose Scotland? |
If you are in NI and the forecast looks good you are a ferry ride away from a day or 2's extra skiing ? |
The problem is that I'd rather get a cheap flight to Europe and have a long weekend there...probably not that much more expensive, if planned carefully.
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Ignoring the rather patronising tone of your first sentence,
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I was just trying to be accurate 
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To do that you surely have to focus on flash-sales and make the best use of soical media to encourage maximum usage at the shortest possible notice. Better use of dynamic pricing as well?
What I don't know is whether a viable business model is actually possible given the inherent constraints.
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This is exactly the kind of effort the resorts are making now.
Glencoe leads the way in this and have turned around a resort that was barely open to being one of the best at getting the info out, offering midweek reductions, investing in new facilities (hobbit huts), equipment (2 NEW piste bashers) and infrastructure (new chairlift opening new ground next season) and i'm pretty sure if you ask them they will say it's paying dividends.
I don't think anyone would deny Scottish skiing went through a bit of a lull with some poor seasons and the advent of cheap flights to Europe, but they can only do so much and it takes time, they are all private enterprises that have to pay wages etc, there is no VC's pumping endless cash in, the government do very little to support it but things are getting better.
People wishing for things that just aint possible or going to happen well what's the point trying to get them to come once a year, sure all the resorts want that but their core business is people from Scotland
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You know it makes sense.
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Inspired by this and other threads to take a look at getting up by sleeper and hoping to ski, mainly for the experience rather than the snowsuredness and part of a more than just skiing holiday, I took a look at the Fort William website. There was hardly a mention of the ability to ski nearby. When I did find the a page that talked about it there was very little amount of information there, not a great first impression, and an amazing request to users to supply some local skiing photos that the site could use.
So either not very important to the local economy or sheer laziness in not marketing it. Funny as it was billing the area as the outdoor centre of the UK.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Whitegold wrote: |
It ain't rocket science.
Scottish skiing needs some razzmatazz.
First, you gotta fix the godawful resort websites, webcams and social media.
Second, you gotta fix the godawful transport links.
Third, you gotta coat the entire mountain in snowguns.
Fourth, you gotta coat the entire mountain in trees. Reduce the wind. Slow the melt. Pretty it up.
Fifth, you gotta sell online, onphone and onwatch lift tickets.
Sixth, you gotta tidy up the carparking and bus-stops.
Seventh, you gotta dramatically improve the available snow reports, snowfall reports, weather forecasts and trailmaps.
Eighth, you gotta get the resorts on local and national TV, radio and YouTube on a daily to weekly basis.
Ninth, you gotta make it much easier to book accommodation and weekend hotel-ski packages.
Tenth, you gotta do flash-sales on liftpasses or hotels during low periods, like January or midweek.
Ten steps to growth. It ain't rocket science. |
There speaks a man who has never been up the Scottish hills in winter !!!
I can't think of one Munro/Corbett that has trees up top.
I wonder why that could be.............
........answers on a postcard. 
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Poster: A snowHead
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From the marketing/image viewpoint, skiing in Scotland only tends to makes the news when there is some sort of incident (eg. Avalanche), in the same way that a lost walker, or fallen climber does.
My media biased view, and that of others I know, is that generally conditions are poor (for a given value of poor), but if you find they are good, then it's already too late to travel to take advantage of the conditions, as the locals will have skied it out. A bit like starting skiing at lunchtime on a powder day, it's all tracked out.
As a Southerner the logistics of going skiing in Scotland, and Switzerland are pretty much the same, so why bother with Scotland. However, If I lived within an hour of skiable snow, I'm sure it would be a different story
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| AndAnotherThing.. wrote: |
| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| No matter how much you improve things. the problem is that if you have one precious week's skiing per year, would you choose Scotland? |
If you are in NI and the forecast looks good you are a ferry ride away from a day or 2's extra skiing ? |
I've done this a couple of times, but the journey is the killer - a ferry crossing and long drive mean I could be skiing in the Alps in the time it takes to get about half way to Fort William. Gogle maps says the drive is 4 and a half hrs, but my experience was closer to 6 hrs.
If I lived closer I'd be there every chance I got. I still haven't been while either The Fly Paper or The Back Corries are open, and have a hankering to ski them both. The Back Corries look great.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I was expecting a "major" local attraction and activity to be well represented on a local tourist website, my point being on the marketing thereon or its not a major for them. Maybe someone in the Fort William marketing office could save themselves a lot of time and money by just having a google search box on it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Haggis_Trap, From the last link
"It is also possible to ski in Glencoe."
FFS. 
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Queues can be long on good snow days.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Peter S wrote: |
The Alps are great for skiing holidays.
Scotland is great for skiing. |
This.
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@JoyZipper,
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There speaks a man who has never been up the Scottish hills in winter !!!
I can't think of one Munro/Corbett that has trees up top.
I wonder why that could be.............
........answers on a postcard
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That's actually quite an interesting question. Scotland has one of the lowest tree lines in the world and the reason is not what I expected. It has nothing to do with cold winters, poor soil, or the Romans chopping them down. The problem is that the maritime climate means the summers are too cool above 1600ft to sustain much tree growth. In parts of Norway the tree line is below sea level!
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FAQ
