 Poster: A snowHead
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he said he can do bum to the floor squats - doesn't suggest a problem
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The cause is likely to be more than one thing. Having struggled for years despite lessons, only to eventually found solution in custom modification of boots, I would very strongly suggest to look at ALL the LIKELY causes.
The question is which one to address first.
1) the OP can take more lessons, which will likely improve things even if his boots are not ideal. (And if the instructor is a good one, he/she could help identify the root cause of his lack of progress being his stance and suggest a new pair of boots)
2) the OP can go to a good boot fitter and have his stance looked at. A new pair of boots, even without extensive modification, will likely be more comfortable and offer more immediate effect to the skis. And if there's biomechanical issue, addressing it would change his skiing drastically, BEFORE he picks up a lot of bad technique as compensation of his ill-fitted boots!
What's the drawback of each approach?
Lesson first: if the biomechanical issue isn't obvious, or not picked up by the instructor, the OP will find it difficult to do some of the drills due to his legs not being held in the right place. More drills, more fatigue, lack of result.
Boot first: I can't think of any drawback. But that hinges CRITICALLY on finding a GOOD boot fitter than pay attention to the biomechanics of the fitting process.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| pam w wrote: |
The OP did say he could do the splits, but is that about quads?
Can you stand and pull your foot up so that your heel touches your bum, with pelvis tilted forward, faithsdaddy? |
Yes.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Well there's always a risk of trying to diagnose stuff from a few internet words, but ..... if your technique was good then you'd know it was the boots, therefore it's your technique.
It's irrelevant how fit you are: if you're using your fitness then you're doing it wrong.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| abc wrote: |
The cause is likely to be more than one thing. Having struggled for years despite lessons, only to eventually found solution in custom modification of boots, I would very strongly suggest to look at ALL the LIKELY causes.
The question is which one to address first.
1) the OP can take more lessons, which will likely improve things even if his boots are not ideal. (And if the instructor is a good one, he/she could help identify the root cause of his lack of progress being his stance and suggest a new pair of boots)
2) the OP can go to a good boot fitter and have his stance looked at. A new pair of boots, even without extensive modification, will likely be more comfortable and offer more immediate effect to the skis. And if there's biomechanical issue, addressing it would change his skiing drastically, BEFORE he picks up a lot of bad technique as compensation of his ill-fitted boots!
What's the drawback of each approach?
Lesson first: if the biomechanical issue isn't obvious, or not picked up by the instructor, the OP will find it difficult to do some of the drills due to his legs not being held in the right place. More drills, more fatigue, lack of result.
Boot first: I can't think of any drawback. But that hinges CRITICALLY on finding a GOOD boot fitter than pay attention to the biomechanics of the fitting process. |
Totally agree with this, but I think you overplay the likelihood of an instructor identifying boot issues.
My wife had a problem with stance. Instructors gave her drills and exercises to no avail. By chance, she was having some minor boot adjustments carried out, and the switched-on bootfitter identified that she has short achilles tendons - apparently a common problem amongst women who often wear high heels. A quick heel insert later, and her stance issues were resolved.
No instructor ever identified the boot issue. She's since discussed her problem with several instructors, and none had ever heard of the short achilles problem.
So, to summarise, my practical experience suggests that abc's approach is the right one.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Hmm sounds like the OP does a lot of gym work meaning he will have large muscle mass, putting aside both technique and boots for second. This will mean that cramping, which is caused by a build up of Lactic Acid will happen more easily. The more muscle the more lactic acid is produced.
However Lactic acid is only produced during Anerobic metabolism. Ie when the muscle is not getting enough oxygen. So this could be a factor of altitude, existing issues with lung capacity (to much weight lifting not enough cardio, or most likely or at least my favorite reason. Forgeting to breath.
I did this all the time when I was learning, being a man and struggling to multitask sometimes when I am very focused I hold my breath. I have always done it when playing music (rules out winde instruments I can tell you) and i still sometimes do it when ski-ing moguls, its like my brain can only cope with so many things.
Its actually more complex than that. Anaerobic metabolism is more efficient than aerobic in releasing energy in the short term, its a fight or flight mechanism to ensure peak efficiency for a short period of time. Extended periods you get lactic build up and then you are shot.
I wander if the OP without realizing it, through concentration or simply fear of a tricky decent, is forgetting to breath.
I found Yoga was really helfpul as it taught me to integrate complex physical movement with breathing. Just something else to think about in addition to boots and technique
G
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| gordonrussell76 wrote: |
Hmm sounds like the OP does a lot of gym work meaning he will have large muscle mass, putting aside both technique and boots for second. This will mean that cramping, which is caused by a build up of Lactic Acid will happen more easily. The more muscle the more lactic acid is produced.
However Lactic acid is only produced during Anerobic metabolism. Ie when the muscle is not getting enough oxygen. So this could be a factor of altitude, existing issues with lung capacity (to much weight lifting not enough cardio, or most likely or at least my favorite reason. Forgeting to breath.
I did this all the time when I was learning, being a man and struggling to multitask sometimes when I am very focused I hold my breath. I have always done it when playing music (rules out winde instruments I can tell you) and i still sometimes do it when ski-ing moguls, its like my brain can only cope with so many things.
Its actually more complex than that. Anaerobic metabolism is more efficient than aerobic in releasing energy in the short term, its a fight or flight mechanism to ensure peak efficiency for a short period of time. Extended periods you get lactic build up and then you are shot.
I wander if the OP without realizing it, through concentration or simply fear of a tricky decent, is forgetting to breath.
I found Yoga was really helfpul as it taught me to integrate complex physical movement with breathing. Just something else to think about in addition to boots and technique
G |
Very interesting take on the possible causes.
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I agree with much of the advice here, and particularly that it can be a combination of things, not just one.
You cannot do better than visit CEM for a full consultation and fitting. If you are prepared to purchase your own skis, then his fantastic colleague Andi will put you on a special machine and get you totally in balance in your boots and skis. It worked wonders for me. [You don't buy the skis from them, but they could advise you].
Also, I have noticed that I really have to force myself forward on my skis to ensure I'm not in the backseat. Bend your ankles, push your hips forwards, tip forwards at the hip joints not the stomach. Hold your hands out in front of you. Loosen the top buckle of your boots a bit to bend your ankles more.
Then get someone to video you; you'll be amazed that you think you are really forward in a silly manner, but you are not! If you are doing it all right, your calf muscles should ache at the end of the days — not your thighs.
Breathing, stretching and yoga are also fantastic advice. As is special exercises to stretch your calf muscles etc.
Also remember that skiing is not "natural" like running or walking. And the biomechanics of every human body is different. Some folks may just not be as suitable for skiing as others. And you may me great at running, cycling etc., but skiing requires it's own particular group of muscles.
Also, if you are overweight it does not help. I could lose 2 stone — that is almost the weight of a 15 Kilo bag at the airport. I'm not doing myself any favours carrying that around, and my thighs and legs have to take that strain.
Lastly, take a look at this, although it does not sound like your issue. But it helped me:
Yeeha! I found my problem muscle: Vastus medals
http://www.epicski.com/t/109848/yeeha-i-found-my-problem-muscle-vastus-medialis
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@PeDaSp, skiing is completely natural. An unpowered, undirected skiing "robot" can do it...
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PeDaSp
My only hesitation with CEM is that it'll cost silly money. Is that the case?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| faithsdaddy wrote: |
PeDaSp
My only hesitation with CEM is that it'll cost silly money. Is that the case? |
That's not my experience, especially when you compare it to the cost of skiing holidays significantly compromised by pain and an inability to ski as much as you would like.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| faithsdaddy wrote: |
PeDaSp
My only hesitation with CEM is that it'll cost silly money. Is that the case? |
That's not my experience, especially when you compare it to the cost of skiing holidays significantly compromised by pain and an inability to ski as much as you would like. |
Over £500?
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@faithsdaddy, best to email Colin [CEM] and ask him what charges. I think he is very reasonable indeed.
Possible costs, depending on what you want and what he recommends are:
Boots
Customised Footbeds
Specialised liners such as ZipFit
Fitting of boots & liners by heating and stretching
Any other adjustments.
Andi's charges are separate if you want the full balance treatment with shims etc. But you need to bring your own skis for that.
Remember, that once Colin has supplied and fitted your boots, you will never pay if you need to go back to have adjustments.
Considering the cost of ski holidays, I think it is well, well worth it. And I know so many people he has helped.
But you could always buy a second-hand pair off eBay and see how you go... 
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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That Doesn't look particularly expensive when you consider you're paying for 1-2 hours of highly skilled labour.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Getting boots fitted is one of those things that CAN BE extremely unfair to 'compare' (aka price shop)
Take my own history:
- first, I went to a reasonably good boot fitter, found a pair of boots that hugs my feet snug. The boot was 20% off listed price. I could have gotten that for less on the internet. But not a lot less. Given the boot fitter had spend a good 1/2hr with me to arrived at that particular pair of boot that happened to fit snug, I felt the small extra cost is only fair.
- the bottom of my feet aren't flat, whilst the insole came from the factory was pretty flat. Knowing I'd be tipping my feet left and right in the hope the skis will do the same, I wondered a pair of custom insole that matches the bottom of my feet might be a good thing. Asked the boot fitter, and he said "yea, with your feet, it will bring some improvement". OK, add the cost of custom insole.
- 3 months later, I was in a clinic, in which the instructor was working with a boot fitter during the clinic. He looked at how I ski, and how I stand in the boot (trousers legs pulled up). He concluded I needed to have a shim on the inside edge. 2 degree on the right, 3 degree on the left. Add that to the cost of boot + insole.
The TOTAL cost of the boot by that point? About double the initial price of an un-modified boot from the internet.
Amazing change of my skiing! A lot of the drills I had trouble doing are now piece of cake!
In the mean time, some bloke who had the best luck of the world slip his feet into a pair of boot that happened to match his feet, no shim, no footbed, nothing. Well, it cost half of what it would cost me.
Also in the mean time, another bloke had to have custom liner because no boot even come close to the shape of his feet. The liner itself cost as much as the boot, plus the foot bed... He's paying 3 times as much!
Life isn't always fair.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| faithsdaddy wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| faithsdaddy wrote: |
PeDaSp
My only hesitation with CEM is that it'll cost silly money. Is that the case? |
That's not my experience, especially when you compare it to the cost of skiing holidays significantly compromised by pain and an inability to ski as much as you would like. |
Over £500? |
It depends on the boots that you end up buying. Colin lists his range of boots, with prices, on his website, plus his charges are listed in the link shown above. One thing to be aware of is that buying boots at this time of year is not very sensible as all shops will have a very small selection of last season's boots in stock. You should wait until the autumn when next season's stock is available and the boot fitter has the full range to select from, especially if you require a specific boot to fit unusual feet/lower legs.
Out of interest, do you have any video of your skiing?
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FAQ
