Help me put the fire on top of my legs out!

A snowHead

I lift heavy weights, can do 200+ ar$e to grass squats and walk 11+ miles each day as a postie no problem. But as soon as I do a few easy runs on snow, my quads burn really badly and it affects my ski holiday in a big way.

It FEELS as though my lower legs are very forward, causing me to sit back to counter balance, which means I end up holding myself up by my quads (that's how it feels, I accept I may be wrong).

I've been using hire boots and wonder if buying my own pair would help. Snow and Rock Chertsey is fairly near me. Are they likely to be able to help me- are they good enough to get me to the stage where the boot isn't any longer part of the pain equation? If not, can anyone recommend someone likely to be able to help, in the Guildford-ish region?

Many thanks, Nick.

A snowHead

@faithsdaddy, you're almost certainly correct to say that you're sitting back. Well-fitted boots are always a good idea, but the boots won't cure the problem on their own - lessons will do that. (I speak from experience.)

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

When I get that burn I know I'm not pushing forward in my boots enough and letting my hands drop. I make a conscious effort to refocus on my stance and hand position then it goes away.
Stopping for a vin chaud also helps Laughing

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@faithsdaddy, In terms of Snow and Rock aka Slush and Rubble in Chertsey many people are very happy to criticise them. However I have recently had a very good fitting with them for some boots which happened to be in the sale even if still a little pricey. I also got a new foot bed that feels right, the only thing I would add and this is critical is the person who actually fits your boots is the really important bit rather than the shop, if you have a good fitter they will tell you if they dont have anything suitable too. I believe the gentleman who fitted mine was Rowan.

There are always people along on here to recommend CEM at Solutions4feet and profeet in London who are also good.

Finally I couldnt agree more with @Hurtle, lessons are key in the process of improving which is why next week I am killing myself with a couple of them.

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Boots aren't your problem. Get yourself down the Guildford dryslope, or the one at Sandown or up on the snow at Mt.Hemel and get some help sorting out that stance.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

@pam w,

@faithsdaddy, this could be gear, it could be technique. Almost everyone will benefit from more lessons but lessons by themselves will not solve the backseat/thigh burn problem for a minority of people. If your boots inhibit a functional stance, for instance by holding you too far forward, then you will have trouble skiing and will report the things you describe.

There is a good example of this in this thread http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=116804 . The guy's abnormally large calves meant that his knees were pushed too far forward, inhibiting a nice, functional tall stance. The problem was resolved by stretching the back of his boots to make them more upright. Note how it all goes very quiet when the answer to the problem wasn't "more lessons". If your calves are more than about 14" in circumference at the top of the ski boot then this could well be your problem.

I would strongly suggest going to see CEM at Solutions for Feet in Bicester. I have used Profeet years back. They supplied me with a nice, snug pair of boots which did not take account of the calf issue I outlined a moment ago. If you think you have something up with you out of the ordinary then I would not use Snow and Rock.

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^this

1 You need a nice upright centred stance.

2 Certain people have biomechanics that prevent this unless they have specific work done e.g. ramp angle, cuff work

3 A custom footbed may help even in a rental boot but may not be the entire fix.

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so @faithsdaddy, what do you think? Stance or boots?

You should be pretty centered - there's a graphic floating around.

Not this but pertinent

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@faithsdaddy, you should run with your gut, so to speak. In any case, the worst thing that can happen here is that you end up with a pair of ski boots that fit properly.

You know it makes sense.

@faithsdaddy, what angle are you forced into?

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Burning thighs are a sign of bad technique and bad health (circulation problems, mineral deficiences, etc).

A snowHead

Just been trying standing with ankles very bent, but can still "stack", even in slippers providing no support at all.

How large are your calves, @faithsdaddy? If you have very large calves specialist fitting would seem a good idea.

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@faithsdaddy, I would second everything that has been said about technique. You didn't mention how long you had been skiing or at what level you think you are performing. I have been skiing since Reagan had his finger on the nuclear button, and still I benefitted greatly from coaching this year - I had become too static, was not driving the edges and was putting too much tension into by knee joints as a result. I had exercises from my coach to push further forward once again, stopping the bad habit, and becoming far more dynamic in up and down movement. My own boots are fairly upright park models which are also used for piste and off piste. I would suggest that boots would be a good idea, but far more important is some intensive 1:1 tuition.

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Under a new name- more than shown in the graphic

Pam/ Jed- larger than average, but not circus big

Valais- Just done my 5th ski holiday. Low/ Middle intermediate

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Or, an 1:1 session with a good instructor may achieve the same.

I skied for quite many years struggling at the "intermediate plateau'. It was in fact an instructor who's also a boot fitter who spotted my problem lies largely in my boots. Once that was corrected, my skiing went leaps and bounds, literally!

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

@faithsdaddy, your issue with engaged quads is more than likely related to boots and/or too much delta on the binding. One of our clients (also fit and of athletic build) had exactly the same problem which was rectified by altering the delta angles on his bindings. Message me if you want to chat.

After all it is free

I used to get absolutely raging quads, and it came down to 2 main things:

- Mostly, technique. I wasn't leaning far forward enough. Once I started doing it properly, it changed everything. So I'm betting on technique

- But also, warming up and warming down helps too. If you're stretching muscles hard when skiing, from no warm up... then going straight to the bar and sitting down for the evening without warming down, you will definitely be aggravating the problem. Some simple stretches in the lift queue can make a world of difference.

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@faithsdaddy, You don't mention how much instruction you've had, if any. What you describe is almost definitely due to technique. Before you get boots (though a good idea itself), suggest get a check-over from a qualified instructor as a first step, this should confirm the issue and lead to a remedy (I'd offer but am too far away!).

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Quads aren't tight. I stretch every day- I'm flexible enough to almost do the splits.

You know it makes sense.

a ski boot is one of the only pieces of equipment for any sport which "holds YOU" rather than you holding it, most rental boots tend to be slightly older styles of boots (not always old, but boot tech has changed quite a lot over the past 5 years) they tend to have 14-16 degrees of forward lean, if you have a larger calf muscle (bigger than say 15" around at the top of the boot) then you will be forced forward and need to sit back a little to compensate and get back into balance, this is the biggest cause of the pain you describe. equally a boot too soft (like most rental boots) will allow you to collapse into the front of it and cause similar problems.

lessons can help, but if the boot is throwing you out of balance to begin with then they will not solve the problem, equally having a boot which puts you in the correct position is a great start but if you don't know how to use it you are back to square one.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

So it sounds to me as if the solution to your problem could be boots and it could be lessons.

The good thing about lessons would be that any halfway decent instructor should be able to look at your stance after you've explained the problem and see if the problem is your technique or not.

If going down the new boots route then I wouldn't feel confident in relying on advice from a snowsports shop but would think it best to visit a boot specialist like CEM who would be looking at your stance as a priority rather than just whether the boots fit your feet.

Of course you could always visit your nearest snowsports shop and see how your stance feels in a pair of ski boots. You should be able to stand fairly comfortably in the athletic stance show above without any stress or straining. If you can then it suggests lessons might be the best option to try first. If you can't, then help from a specialist boot fitter might be the best path to go down first.

A snowHead

@CEM,

am I right in thinking that the appropriate forward lean is also influenced by where you carry your weight (e.g., upper body vs lower body)? My legs/backside are disproportionately muscular compered to my upper body and I find that I find a more natural, neutral balance point in boots with more forward lean - think this is because it tends to bring my bum more over my feet. I imagine people with big arms /chest would find that this brought too much weight in front of their toes and bum would have to stick out to compensate?

BTW on boots "holding you" - would have thought as you get better you aim not to be hanging on the front of your boots but centred in your boots with just enough pressure on the fronts to know where you are? Ideally boots are a tool for transmitting your movements to the skis rather than holding you in place?

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@jedster, on the where you carry weight, yes to a point, BUT the angle of the boot shaft plays a big part in the position that the boot puts you in

as for the boot being a tool and not holding you in a position, just try and stand bolt upright in your ski boots.... you can't! why because the boot stops you, it holds you in a position of forward flexion... sure the idea is to stand and in a balanced position without the boot forcing you anywhere, BUT the boot will hold you in a flexed position unless you force against it in any direction

a ski boot holds YOU in a position in the same way that YOU hold the tennis racket or the golf club... neither of these items can hold you

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faithsdaddy, lots of interesting advice, but in the end i suspect its just all about technique.
Really, recreational skiing is near effortless, if you are going it right. Gravity is doing all the work.
Just look at your instructor. Is he/she out of breath at the end of a run? Does he/she suffer thigh burn?
Its Lessons, Lessons, then Practice, Practice, and that nasty burning will be no more.

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Look this is going in a predictable direction - you've had the OP state that he can't stand static in an upright centred stance and experts like CEM state that un-modded boots can indeed cause this for large calf sizes yet people are determined to hammer the lessons drum.

Yes lessons are probably helpful but in a situation the OP describes he is better starting lessons from a position where he can get to neutral first - which sounds like an equipment fix. Whether an instructor doesn't sit back is irrelevant - who knows what boot/ramp work they've had done or whether their biomechanics are "standard" such that they fit with "normal" equipment.

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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

The OP says his calves are large but hasn't said how large - CEM would be able to say whether standard boots could be modified to fit, if this is the problem

He hasn't said how long he's been skiing or how many lessons he's had, either.

Maybe a picture of him, sideways, in his ski boots, would help

(with bare legs but preferably not naked.... wink

)

After all it is free

It's likely a combination of both TBH. At the very least, well fitted boots will give the proper support. Great boots will improve any skiers comfort and ability to a certain extent and largely contribute to the over skiing enjoyment.

If the OP needs an excuse to buy a pair of boots, this would be it... and then follow up with good tuition.

Rich

@faithsdaddy, my wife had a similar problem a couple of years' ago. Long weekend in St Anton, amazing fresh dump of snow, a couple of lines and her legs were shot. The issue, her quads were just too tight, and were cramping up quickly. Three days of stretching and they were ok, but too late for the powder http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/images/smiles/icon_sad.gif.

Not saying this is the issue here, but you do talk about a lot of quad work which will shorten the muscle, especially the hip flexors, especially if this is not something you have experienced before or nothing else has changed. Making sure you are really stretched out never does any harm.

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The OP did say he could do the splits, but is that about quads?

Can you stand and pull your foot up so that your heel touches your bum, with pelvis tilted forward, faithsdaddy?

Help!!

Help me put the fire on top of my legs out!

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