 Poster: A snowHead
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I totally agree you don't need airbag if you play safely... but then you don't need transceiver, shovel and probe either  Unless I go for really, really safe option, with absolutely no chances for anything, I leave my ABS at home. Otherwise I carry it with me. Thing is, you can never be 100% safe, and if airbag gives you just 1% more chances to survive if sh**t hit the fan, it's worth carrying that little extra weight, and spending those few euros (sure 500eur is not nothing, but compared to my life it's nothing). I never triggered it till now for real, and I never needed to use other avi equipment (unless for training or digging snow pits), and I certainly hope it will stay with this forever, but if I will needed, I'm happy to pay/carry that to get even just a slightly bigger chance to survive.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Here's an article I wrote on the subject in 2010.
http://pistehors.com/news/ski/comments/1004-avalanche-airbags-training-and-risk-homeostatis/
Given at least 9 deaths this season in FR,CH,Austrai with airbag users I would say people are starting to push the boundaries a bit. For example, standing at the bottom of a slope when a large avalanche hits you that you've remotely triggered.
My take is that if you get caught in an avalanche that is big enough to bury you, then an ABS is the most important safety device you can have. Even with risk homeostatis I still think an airbags will reduce overall avalanche deaths.
A couple of caveats:-
It is better not to be caught in an avalanche in the first place as it is a complete lottery when that happens.
Speaking to ABS users it is clear that some do not understand the technology, they buy the rucksack because they really don't really know much about what they are doing and don't understand the limits or even how it is used. Witness the deaths from misuse. Or the guy I crossed last year, who had never tested his rucksack and when he needed it, it didn't work due to some manufacturing error. This skier has been going into high risk terrain because he had an airbag (he would be classed as an experienced user in the avalanche stats too).
If the OP is planning on doing a lot of off piste with groups largely composed of ABS users, then at least rent an airbag, no point being negatively impacted by their decision making.
Disclaimer: I'm not personally an airbag user. In a normal season I'm probably doing around 50-60 days skiing/ski touring. Now given that I could ski all winter you can surmise I don't go out on days that I consider it too risky.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
compare the pedigree of Arc’Teryx vs Ortovox is avalanche security etc
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@Weathercam, well, Ortovox pedigree does involve a recent recall (S1 i think?). I've not seen an Arc'teryx recall yet........
I realise it's not comparing like for like, I just think the battery systems look like a positive step in advancing the technology and it'll be interesting to see where it all goes. The easy ability to test fire easily and reset in the field are big pluses to me.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Thank everyone. Possibly I was over sensitive but am used to asking questions on motorbike forums (who do know me and know that despite my 'blonde by choice' hair and added pink dye, I'm not as dumb as I may look!) and getting responses that suit the question, not what I may appear to be. I appreciate that the first post was written as if it was my home forum, so will try to be a bit clearer and less frivolous in future 
The user name stems from the fact that I was a chalet host when I first found this forum - about four years ago probably. I don't post a lot but I do read bits and pieces when I pop in. (My bike forum names are probably worse in some ways!)
I understand about the reading side of things but, after a random discussion in a bar with friends, I was looking for opinion and maybe pointers towards reading. Remembering when I was a newbie biker, it was amazing how many expensive mistakes can be made on the equipment front by listening to sales people, reading the 'wrong' articles and sometimes listening to (reading) the wrong people online. I realise that I can't necessarily believe absolutely everything I read on any forum (there were some people on a bike forum who's advice I would automatically dismiss as I know for sure that they were not necessarily people that did know what they were talking about) so I am happy to read the advice and then do reading elsewhere. Then talk to my instructor friends armed with some knowledge.
This was a fact finding thread but, as said, I remember making some very expensive mistakes on bike gear and really don't want to do that again. Whilst I can buy the right gear, I don't want to buy the wrong gear and not be able to afford the correct stuff later.
I haven't worked out how to multi quote, so please bear with me on the lack of names, but I have gained a LOT of good information from this thread. I really do appreciate that because whilst I consider myself to be a competent skier, I haven't even skied off the side of the piste in soft snow; before this season because of my dodgy knees and this season because I ski on my own virtually the whole time and having experienced that people don't stop if you crash on piste am reluctant to be 'just off the piste' on my own!
Once I've done the off piste lessons and decided if it is something I will want to continue, I will use this thread as a base to read up on a lot more information and ask questions of people in resort before I do anything mad like buy kit! Then find people to ski with as off piste is not something I want to do alone
Thank you again and sorry if I came over a bit sensitive! (Probably react badly after years of being treated like an idiot by a lot of guys who didn't know me and don't think girls can/should ride big sports motorbikes - have always thought/found skiing to be different)
xx
Oh - my 'non' go pro has stayed in the cupboard for the season (have only ever used it on trackdays on the bike to show myself if I'm moving on the bike properly) and I need to hire 'big fat' skis as mine are not suitable for going off piste (so I'm told)!!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| peanuthead wrote: |
| chaletgirl wrote: |
| galpinos wrote: |
I think people post slightly aggressively because, with bit fat skis and the go pro culture, people with little/minimal experience are now skiing runs and slopes which used to be the reserve of those with the skills and knowledge.
Avalanches are tricky things. They don’t actually happen that often. As a result, we (i.e. off-piste skiers) don’t often get caught in them. This makes us think we are good at knowing snow conditions, which gives us a false sense of security and makes us think we are safer than we are. Until we’re not, an avalanche happens and things go wrong very quickly.
An airbag is the final bit of kit to get when thinking about off-piste skiing.
1) Instruction – You’ve got this half covered but be aware “Off-piste” lessons will probably not teach you that much about the snow, just how to ski it. The teaching of how to use a beacon, how to shovel properly (there is an art to it believe it or not) and how to use a probe will be perfunctory at best, none existent at worst. I’d look to book some time with a guide to give you a morning discussing how to pick routes, assess snow, safe ski tactics, search properly etc.
2) Beacon/Shovel/Probe – There lots of info on which is the best. IMO, the best is any of the modern 3 antennae beacons that you know how to use really well. Also, get a metal shovel and a decent length probe, don’ get a stupid short probe to save weight.
3) Read – Reinforce everything you’ve learnt. By Bruce Tremper’s “Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain” and read it every night. Get your mates together and bury each other’s beacons and find them. Try actually shovelling/digging. Try probing.
4) Maybe by an airbag…….
If I was to by an airbag I’m pretty taken by the new air powered ones, especially the new Arc’Teryx pack that was launched recently. |
Thank you. This is my fourth season and the first without gammy knees. So I'm not blasé about snow and mountains, any more than I am about the sea (was brought up sailing every holiday with my Dad).
I didn't realise that a question about air bags from someone wanting to learn was going to be so emotive and received so negatively!! But again, I do appreciate the positive response, thank you |
I actually think this was great post by galpinos |
The first bit of my post was aimed at galpinos - the last bit was a general comment and definitely NOT aimed at galpinos (whose name my computer wants to change to gallons!1 LOL ) Sorry that it came across that way
I am serious about my appreciation though. I have learned a lot from the replies and have got a lot of reading and learning to do x
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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As a medium term air bag user (7 years), I agree with most of the comments above, that an airbag is the last piece of equipment to buy, after shovel/probe/transceiver, and some avalanche training. When traveling in the back country you need to be constantly assessing the snow, and always ask questions of your guide and be concerned if they cannot answer why they are taking a particular route. Some risks are more obvious than others, steepness, large cornice etc, but others are more obvious only when explained. A typical example being the tempting open field of powder snow below the tree line. Is it open because it has been cleared of trees, or is in an indication of regular avalanches. The usual indication of avalanches is large trees around the perimeter, and small young trees in the middle.
I definitely think battery/fan units are the way forward for the more freeride biased user, where weight is not such a issue. The lighter weight gas units will rule the touring market, until lighter battery units appear. I have a ABS Vario and a Pieps Jetforce, and the ease of use of the Pieps for testing/repacking/flying far exceeds the ABS. However, the ABS zip on sacks have much greater flexibility. The ABS requires careful repacking after testing (as do most if not all gas base packs), as incorrect packing can result in incomplete inflation (not something you want). In contrast with the Jetforce it is just a case of stuffing the airbag back into the pack.
Some of the points raised about the new Ortovox Avabag, are slightly misleading, as the 640g is only for the airbag/trigger unit, not the whole backpack, so you probably need to add another 1kg to the total. It is still very light, but not 640g light. The multiple activation feature mentioned, is not inflation and repacking cycles, but just test pulls of the trigger.
For me, an airbag is about risk mitigation and percentages. I spend the majority of my skiing time off piste, and although I travel with a guide or in low risk terrain, there is always a risk. So for example if the risk of an avalanche is 1 day in 100, and you spend 7 days off piste the risk is relatively low, but if you spend 100 days off piste, the risk is that 1 of your days skiing will involve an avalanche.
Like an piece of safety equipment, air bags won't save you every time. Airbags work best in powder avalanches in open terrain. They won't help if cliffs, trees or terrain traps are involved.
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| PowderAdict wrote: |
| So for example if the risk of an avalanche is 1 day in 100, and you spend 7 days off piste the risk is relatively low, but if you spend 100 days off piste, the risk is that 1 of your days skiing will involve an avalanche. |
1 in 100 risk? I think I'd find another sport.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@davidof, 1 in 100 was just give sample risk, as with any risky activity, the more times you participate in it, the greater the chance of something happening. In 30 years skiing, the last 10 of which have been as much off piste as possible, I've only been on the same slope as an avalanche twice (small slides), and both times they were triggered by the guide on purpose using a ski cut. One of those slopes took someones life 3 weeks ago, as they didn't bother checking the slope before skiing it, in the group rush for first tracks 
If you want zero risk, don't ski.
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Get your level 1 avy class, and the tools, and always remember to use your gray matter, which is always your 1st safety tool regardless of activity.
I've only been doing off piste since 1982, and the gray matter is still the best safety gear ever. This is repeated since I just took a avy refresher, and more than enough friends hurt or with close calls.
Get proficient at off- piste and powder then decide if you want to proceed, get the 1st aid training and gear, and then get the airbag and practice and practice the deployment act, and remember it just makes you the tortilla chip on top you still hit trees.
Powder is fun but there are a lot of off piste snow conditions.
Here's a scary story from this winter
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2016/feb/27/surviving-a-bad-break/
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@chaletgirl, you started a discussion!! That's what forums (forii?) are for. And for learning about stuff from some very experienced skiers and boarders. If no one asked things on here the guys who always jump in and tell you you should look it up on Google wouldn't get the chance. And the rest of us wouldn't get to read all the helpful answers
If you get some lessons from a good school they will provide you with all the gear and show you how to use it. I feel that if a school is providing me with a transceiver they will probably have checked it regularly and they will know how it works - which is a good thing if you are under lots of snow. Having said that the guide I skied with this year encouraged me to use my own.
I also notice this year in Val d'Isere that all the ski schools and guides I spoke to provided airbags, probes and shovels as part of the price. And as you are likely to be using guides and schools for a while as you pick up experience it might be worth holding off on the gear for a while.
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@henzerani, LOL Thank you. Hopefully by next season I'll be able to ski well enough again to learn off piste too. Just have to see how the ACL stuff goes. I know that one of the schools I'd go with does have kit to loan to customers. Haven't asked with ESF, but they probably do? Will do all the reading over the summer and see what happens to the knee!
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You know it makes sense.
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@chaletgirl, whoa, I didn't read you last post. Bad luck. Maybe you could try adaptive skiing. Off piste adaptive skiing!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@henzerani,
fora
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
Having said that the guide I skied with this year encouraged me to use my own.
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@henzerani, This makes sense because, if you were looking for me, I'd much rather you had a transceiver than you knew and had regularly practiced with, than a device you'd only clapped eyes on that morning.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@galpinos, that's what he said. And the guide is more likely to get caught if he is checking his client's safety by scouting ahead. In fact the main things he checked were whether I knew how to get a grid reference from my phone and call the emergency services.
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FAQ
