 Poster: A snowHead
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I'm planning to get some lessons in Off Piste in March and hope to be able to use the school transceiver and kit. But if I get to grips with it, what is the best things to buy?
I've been told that Ortovox do the best transceivers but I've seen that most of my friends that do off piste have the AirBag kits - are these the best to have? Are they worth the price? (I guess that's a how much is your life worth?' question!!)
Any advice would be appreciated. I will be buying for next season, so can buy at the end of this season 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Start with avalanche beacon, probe, shovel (metal) and an avalanche awareness course to learn how to use them.
Then think of an airbag system.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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If you do buy one that's the best time, I got 20% off one at Snow and Rock buying in June.
I've only done 4 off-piste weeks but purchased my ABS after my first week. If you're going to keep doing it there's no reason not to get an airbag straight away, however as above I wouldn't buy one without first having my own beacon, shovel and probe.
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I started this season without an ABS, however as we started moving onto more gnarly terrain I decided it was best to have to get one.
Depending on the school they'll probably give you an airbag (Evo2 in Tignes last season gave me everything for my 3 guided days).
If it's your first time and you're only out for the week, I'd probably skip buying an ABS this time around and go with the above suggestion of the avvie education course and having your own transceiver, probe and shovel. Also worth buying some books - learn as much as possible!
I'd also recommend the Ortovox - I bought the 3+ starter kit for £235 from Blue Tomatoe last summer.
Final point on the ABS... I got mine half price in Jan from Sport Conrad.. If the price is right and you've got the cash do it! No harm in having it, and if it works out to not be for you you'll easily punt it! Happy powder days!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Thanx all. I've wanted to do off piste for years but never been fit enough (knee problems) or confident enough. However, the knee issues are fixed and I'm doing ski school next week to build up my on piste confidence(level three apparently!) then the week after I plan to get some off piste lessons to see if I can do it. Will be basic to start but if I enjoy it and can afford it, I'll get some more and borrow the kit from the school (ESF).
Just thought I'd ask about the airbags as a few of the people I know seem to use them and so wondered what you guys thought. I will definitely get the transceiver, shovel and probe but the airbag seems to compliment that.
Doubt I'll do any this season outside of lessons, but nice to have the information so that I can look for deals from now so that I can be kitted out before next season
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Slightly off topic. But has anyone ever read anything about the improvements to survival chances with an airbag? I'm fairly sure I read someone that it increases your chances by about 15% but I've never read anything about the effect an airbag might have one someone's decision to expose themselves to a higher risk situation due to the fact that they have a bag?
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Most people I know that ride motorbikes say that they ride more sensibly in jeans than in full leathers. Transfer that across - if you think your kit has a better survival rate, then it is likely that some people will expose themselves to a higher risk situation with better kit (an airbag)
For me - I ride like a tw&t in jeans and in leathers, so I see no extra risk in getting an airbag 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| https://utahavalanchecenter.org/blog-avalanche-airbag-effectiveness-something-closer-truth |
interesting read.
this is the bit that i'm wondering about:
"The other part of the discussion is the often-overlooked issue of what we call “risk homeostasis.” Each gizmo we buy to increase our safety usually cause us to increase our level of risk at the same time. For instance, when we added seat belts and airbags to cars, yes fatalities decreased, but it also allowed us to drive faster, farther, crazier and talk on our mobile phones at the same time. So safety measures usually work but not nearly as well as we would hope because people just increase their risk (and “utility”) at the same time. In avalanche airbag case, we will also get more powder, more fun, and more risk in the bargain."
I guess its next to impossible to work out how much the exposure to risk increases 
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except, @eddiethebus, that we know how rubbish we humans are at assessing risk.
So assume the worst...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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yeah. I remember watching a interview with Glen Plake a while ago where he was saying that the increased use of probe's/bags etc was the worse thing that's ever happened to off piste riding.
He was saying that years ago it would snow and people would rejoice, go the pub and leave it to settle for a couple of days until it was actually safe.
Now it snows and people head straight out, so you have two choices...get there first, or don't get first tracks 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@eddiethebus, definitely happens, but I would like to say, at least, in my case, there is a lot more information available to understand what you can and can't get away with on that first powder.
Certainly I'm still amazed there hasn't been any avalanche deaths in Les Arcs this year judging by the amount of idiots off piste without the right equipment!
@under a new name, @eddiethebus, definitely true that we are terrible are decision making, however you wouldn't NOT buy a car without an airbag in this day and age, regardless of your driving ability (ignoring any laws saying you must...). Airbags do only give a small increase in survival rate, within "ideal" conditions (not overly steep, open face) however if I'm spending 80%+ of my time off piste I'd rather have the most suitable equipment for the ride, despite the saying within our group being "if any of us need to pull the trigger we've messed up".
And of course, knowledge is key, not equipment.
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The health and safety people in BC published a report, I think a couple of years ago now. It's probably on-line somewhere. They were trying to assess if they should force people working at avalanche risk should be forced to use air bags. The discussion was nuanced, but they decided not to enforce them at this point.
The internet debate often boils down to: "you could hardly be less safe..". The problem with that is that you can apply it to lots of things and it misses the cost/benefit risk management approaches used by even people who don't know they're using them.
I think it comes down to that cost/benefit equation. That's why merchant bankers appeared first with air bags (to them the money is irrelevant). Eventually the equipment will become small enough and cheap enough that we all have them. Will it make much difference? I doubt it.
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You know it makes sense.
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to be clear, i'm not saying that airbags aren't a good idea. If they save one persons life that's a fantastic thing.
What i'm not so sure about is whether someone who is yet to have any lessons actually skiing off piste, let alone assessing the dangers of doing so, and is a self confessed "tw@t in jeans on a bike" is the best person to be buying one.
I think sometimes its best to earn your stripes, ski/snowboard suitable lines to your ability/knowledge and as that increases then you take your lines and equipment to the next level in parallel with one another.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| eddiethebus wrote: |
to be clear, i'm not saying that airbags aren't a good idea. If they save one persons life that's a fantastic thing.
What i'm not so sure about is whether someone who is yet to have any lessons actually skiing off piste, let alone assessing the dangers of doing so, and is a self confessed "tw@t in jeans on a bike" is the best person to be buying one.
I think sometimes its best to earn your stripes, ski/snowboard suitable lines to your ability/knowledge and as that increases then you take your lines and equipment to the next level in parallel with one another. |
To be fair - I ride the same on a bike in full leathers, but then I do track days and a little racing as well. That comment was a little tongue in cheek as I continually assess the dangers every time I go out on a bike (I commute on one when I'm in the UK as well as 'playing' at weekends) and adjust my riding to suit, so I think that my assessment of risk is pretty good in general. I have the ability to assess risk, so now need to learn how to do that for off piste (I already do for on piste)
I am not running out to buy the gear now. But am looking at what is there, hence wanting to know what is good to have and why. Given that I've seen my friends wearing the airbag gear, I wanted to know whether it was 'that' good
With riding a bike, I did 'earn my stripes' - whilst wearing full gear and an expensive helmet! After 14 years of riding nearly every day (until I started doing seasons) I became less enthused with full gear, partly as most of the riders I know that have ridden for 40 years wear jeans and 'doc martin' boots/trainers and whatever jacket comes to hand (unlike them, I always wear gloves and decent boots). However, I would never recommend that to a new rider, as they didn't to me. That decision comes when you have more confidence in your ability to assess risk and decide what protection you should wear
Your post almost suggests to start with basic/minimal kit and get better stuff as you get better at off piste? Which is the complete opposite of the other dangerous sport I do. Or have I read that wrong?
I will back for next season so will be able to use the knowledge I learn at the end of this season to do more off piste next season.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I think that, at the beginning, you won't be skiing terrain that's very likely to avalanche (and even less likely to be skiing it alone), so the cost-benefit ratio of an airbag is rather low. You should however still have the "basic" kit: firstly, to learn how it works, and secondly, so that you can use it to assist others if necessary. (In my opinion, once we start going off-piste we all have a responsibility for each other's safety, as a kind of community. I often carry the gear even when skiing on piste - to some people's bafflement, it would seem, judging by some previous threads on here - simply so that I can perhaps be of use if I see something going bad. Then again, I ski in a quiet part of the world where there's more of a village atmosphere on the mountain.)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I totally agree that you have a responsibility to others when off piste. One friend says he is very choosy about who he goes off piste with as you need to be sure that they will stop and find you as you would them (if necessary). And as someone who will always stop at an accident, especially involving a bike, in case I can help (spent years as a first responder and marshall at the TT, so a decent amount of first aid and emergency first aid) I have no issue with maybe being of use if seeing something going bad
Definitely agree about learning to use the kit as soon as I have it (I'm sure I'll get lessons on use of any loaned kit as well) as otherwise there isn't a lot of point having it?
Starting on easy areas where the kit isn't needed makes sense, but I thought it was a valid question about more advanced kit as (unless my knees give up again) I am unlikely to stay on beginners areas! I realise that buying the gear on the first day might not be sensible for that reason (starting on sides of pistes etc) but at some point I have to invest?!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@chaletgirl, well, you know, a lot of off piste skiers that who do a lot of off piste skiing would not consider an airbag, for a number of reasons not limited to
- weight (really a pain if you're touring),
- helicopters (many operators won't allow them as an airbag going off in a helo is uncomfortable) and for at least one individual
- an uncomfortable realisation that he was skiing lines with his airbag that he wouldn't do without it...
I personally think that if you're an off piste guide and therefore taking more risk (by quantity of exposure) then it's a no brainer. Otherwise I think the jury's out. The best way not to get hurt in an avalanche is not to be in an avalanche.
Which does not preclude excellent off piste skiing.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Wed 2-03-16 10:36; edited 1 time in total
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@haigie,
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however you wouldn't NOT buy a car without an airbag in this day and age, regardless of your driving ability
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I am not sure if you can buy new cars without airbags nowadays , but I bet there are loads of people who buy second hand/classic cars without a thought about airbags.
Putting it another way without wanting to get into another hot topic, the number of people who will put winter tyres onto their car in winter is minuscule despite the known performance benefits in safety related measurements such as stopping distance in low temperatures.
Disclosure I ski off piste without an airbag.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I've skied off-piste with nothing(I was ignorant of the dangers at the time), with a transceiver only and now with an airbag as well.
Airbag or not though I'd never go off-piste alone or somewhere new without a guide, in fact I rarely go at all without a guide.
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@chaletgirl,
As everyone has said get some training and go on a course, you have to have minimum transceiver shovel and probe for any course your on, if your off piste with an instructor.
Airbags can come later, sooner whatever you want really, I have not seen any increased risk taking with people using airbags,
IMHO the biggest risk is the idiots who follow my group and a guide with no gear at all, then jump into your line or ski it at the same time! When we are very carefully keeping a set distance apart.
Sorry bit of a rant had it happen too often now, even on glacier skiing in Chamonix during February this year, 3 F wits decided to follow us, onto a 35 degree slope, then later in the day a bunch of English lads, guessing early 20's, with now idea, followed us into the magic forest they were lost! Asked us where to go, our guide was also pretty P off by this stage and just said "when you see the cliffs you have gone to far" If you see them that is LOL I do wonder if they had a long walk or are still stuck in the trees 
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@chaletgirl, IMO if you have to ask the question then you don't really know enough to safely ski in potential avalanche terrain with or without an airbag.
There are a HUGE amount of online resources to educate yourself about avalanches, managing terrain, managing groups, the effectiveness of various equipment, how to use it, etc. Learn about it, think about where you ski (or want to) and what sort of terrain, what dangers are present there and how you manage them, make a decision as to whether an airbag is a good idea.
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If you are new to skiing off piste then I'd wait until you have done a bit more skiing off piste so that you get an idea of what you want to be doing. An airbag is a big expense and you don't want to go out and buy a pack that you later find is not ideal for the kind of things that you do. The airbag systems that I have played with (friends own ABS, Snowpulse and Jetforce) vary significantly in terms of volume, weight, ease of recharge, ease of transport on a flight, and some have quite poor ski carry systems because they try to avoid tangling with the airbag system. My choice for freeride would be very different to my choice for touring, likewise if you travel a lot by air your choice might be different again.
In the long run, whether you want to use an airbag is a matter of personal choice. The arguments are similar to those of wearing a helmet - when something goes wrong they are a clear benefit (unless you are in tight trees), but there is always an argument that you end up taking more risk without really being aware that you are doing so.
I heard a statement once that if you wanted to cut deaths from car accidents then the most effective way to do it would be to force car manufacturers to install a large metal spike in the centre of the steering wheel. I rather think that it is true!
Ben
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@livetoski, I'll admit to once getting lost and having to flag a passing group down to ask the instructor how to get back to the piste. I was skiing next to a piste with loads of people around and kind of went in the zone, suddenly I was in an empty valley with nobody around and a mountain in between me and the slopes.
On my last off-piste trip we acquired a Russian stowaway and the guide gestured down the slope for him to go first and we'd follow.
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| under a new name wrote: |
@chaletgirl, well, you know, a lot of off piste skiers that who do a lot of off piste skiing would not consider an airbag, for a number of reasons not limited to
- weight (really a pain if you're touring),
- helicopters (many operators won't allow them as an airbag going off in a helo is uncomfortable) and for at least one individual
- an uncomfortable realisation that he was skiing lines with his airbag that he wouldn't do without it...
I personally think that if you're an off piste guide and therefore taking more risk (by quantity of exposure) then it's a no brainer. ...
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When we had the first bags, what, 10 years ago, they were huge and were not generally allowed in helis - you had to pack them in the basket. There's been no issue for the last few years: you can carry your bag in the heli. You're supposed to remove the t-handle for flight, but really if they go off (I've never experienced it) then it would be no big deal for the flight generally.
In my experience of heli you seem to get more rich people, Euros, and novices with airbags. Many of them forget to arm the bags. Many do not fasten the crotch straps (I've even seem them cut off).
Guides and experienced guests generally don't use airbags at this point. The same pattern occurred with other "safety" equipment which became popular for reasons which were not obviously connected with actual safety in the back country. Eventually Work Safe BC etc meant other "safety" items which don't get a lot of use in the back country were made effectively compulsory there. The same has not yet happened with air bags, but it probably will.
Personally, when the weight/ size/ cost is low enough I'll probably get one of these and forget about it. I don't ride in stupid places because I have a shovel pack; I won't feel any safer (and I don't think I will be any safer) when I eventually have one of these toys. In time, like "recco", it'll either still be used or people will just move on.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| clarky999 wrote: |
@chaletgirl, IMO if you have to ask the question then you don't really know enough to safely ski in potential avalanche terrain with or without an airbag.
There are a HUGE amount of online resources to educate yourself about avalanches, managing terrain, managing groups, the effectiveness of various equipment, how to use it, etc. Learn about it, think about where you ski (or want to) and what sort of terrain, what dangers are present there and how you manage them, make a decision as to whether an airbag is a good idea. |
You (not just you!) did see the bit where I said I was going to have lessons? In the first post? And generally I've found that asking questions helps with learning. I'm fully aware that I don't know how to ski in potential avalanche terrain - because I've not skied off piste yet. But I want to learn. This question was about me learning about the kit from people more knowledgable, prior to having lessons and then going out with qualified people and investing in (hopefully) the right kit. I'm in resort for the rest of the season and will be back next season (hopefully to live here permanently), so have plenty of time to learn for real. Just wanted to find out some background info.
Despite what some of you guys may think, I'm not stupid. I will get lessons (as per my original post), but I also want to know 'about' off piste, kit, suggestions, etc.
I do appreciate the helpful comments from you guys, thank you
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I think people post slightly aggressively because, with bit fat skis and the go pro culture, people with little/minimal experience are now skiing runs and slopes which used to be the reserve of those with the skills and knowledge.
Avalanches are tricky things. They don’t actually happen that often. As a result, we (i.e. off-piste skiers) don’t often get caught in them. This makes us think we are good at knowing snow conditions, which gives us a false sense of security and makes us think we are safer than we are. Until we’re not, an avalanche happens and things go wrong very quickly.
An airbag is the final bit of kit to get when thinking about off-piste skiing.
1) Instruction – You’ve got this half covered but be aware “Off-piste” lessons will probably not teach you that much about the snow, just how to ski it. The teaching of how to use a beacon, how to shovel properly (there is an art to it believe it or not) and how to use a probe will be perfunctory at best, none existent at worst. I’d look to book some time with a guide to give you a morning discussing how to pick routes, assess snow, safe ski tactics, search properly etc.
2) Beacon/Shovel/Probe – There lots of info on which is the best. IMO, the best is any of the modern 3 antennae beacons that you know how to use really well. Also, get a metal shovel and a decent length probe, don’ get a stupid short probe to save weight.
3) Read – Reinforce everything you’ve learnt. By Bruce Tremper’s “Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain” and read it every night. Get your mates together and bury each other’s beacons and find them. Try actually shovelling/digging. Try probing.
4) Maybe by an airbag…….
If I was to by an airbag I’m pretty taken by the new air powered ones, especially the new Arc’Teryx pack that was launched recently.
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If you hear a soft cracking noise, ski a bit faster 
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| galpinos wrote: |
I think people post slightly aggressively because, with bit fat skis and the go pro culture, people with little/minimal experience are now skiing runs and slopes which used to be the reserve of those with the skills and knowledge.
Avalanches are tricky things. They don’t actually happen that often. As a result, we (i.e. off-piste skiers) don’t often get caught in them. This makes us think we are good at knowing snow conditions, which gives us a false sense of security and makes us think we are safer than we are. Until we’re not, an avalanche happens and things go wrong very quickly.
An airbag is the final bit of kit to get when thinking about off-piste skiing.
1) Instruction – You’ve got this half covered but be aware “Off-piste” lessons will probably not teach you that much about the snow, just how to ski it. The teaching of how to use a beacon, how to shovel properly (there is an art to it believe it or not) and how to use a probe will be perfunctory at best, none existent at worst. I’d look to book some time with a guide to give you a morning discussing how to pick routes, assess snow, safe ski tactics, search properly etc.
2) Beacon/Shovel/Probe – There lots of info on which is the best. IMO, the best is any of the modern 3 antennae beacons that you know how to use really well. Also, get a metal shovel and a decent length probe, don’ get a stupid short probe to save weight.
3) Read – Reinforce everything you’ve learnt. By Bruce Tremper’s “Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain” and read it every night. Get your mates together and bury each other’s beacons and find them. Try actually shovelling/digging. Try probing.
4) Maybe by an airbag…….
If I was to by an airbag I’m pretty taken by the new air powered ones, especially the new Arc’Teryx pack that was launched recently. |
Thank you. This is my fourth season and the first without gammy knees. So I'm not blasé about snow and mountains, any more than I am about the sea (was brought up sailing every holiday with my Dad). But I have to admit that the assumption that someone asking for information means that they are an idiot will make me much less likely to ask for information on here in the future. A shame as I can see from reading that there is a massive amount of knowledge here
I do intend to get instruction for all the physical off-piste stuff. I have a number of friends that are ski instructors and guides so will be asking them for as much information and training as possible on how to ski off-piste, how to use the equipment and as much knowledge that I can take in about the local area and snow. I just wanted to ask on here about that particular bit of equipment as I'd rather use my time with the guys that can teach me, to learn about the immediately important things, physical stuff, transceivers, shovelling and probes. I know a few people that do ski off piste a lot to know basic info of what I need but I would prefer to go to a couple of the guys that do guiding/teaching to get proper instruction. I wouldn't do any dangerous sport without getting proper equipment and training, so the same goes for off piste skiing. But I've always asked on the bike forums for help about uprated brakes/other systems, gear, places to learn, trackdays and racing and have always had a lot of help. Was hoping for the same here. Maybe I don't post enough to be taken seriously?
I didn't realise that a question about air bags from someone wanting to learn was going to be so emotive and received so negatively!! But again, I do appreciate the positive response, thank you
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
Cockofthenorth has pulled his twice now, I guess he does the gnarly stuff more often than most punters on here, but he is from Yorkshire....
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@boredsurfin, do you mean he's been caught in two avalanches? If so, I'd say he may be more gnarly, or no be very aware of snow conditions?
There was actually some research done into avalanches in the US and I think 20% of people caught in an avalanche didn't actually activate their air bag.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Last week I was at the SIGB ski test in Kuhtai, prior to being there I had been genning up on what products to look at test etc.
The bag that stood out head and shoulders (bit like the bag) was the Ortovox Avabag.
The ISPO AWARD Product of the Year winner 2016, which weighs only 640 grams and can hold up to 18 litre. (there will be a larger one).
The system is very similar to the Scott Alpride (which I now use after ten years ABS) and is detachable which offers infinite triggering without having to use a cartridge, so great for training purposes.
The bag is ridiculously light which in part is due to the construction of the bag, and is very comfortable.
Yes the Arc’Teryx pack won a Gold award, but it is untried tech, (batteries have a nasty habit of failing at alitude in cold temps, just speak to any Iphone user) and compare the pedigree of Arc’Teryx vs Ortovox is avalanche security etc
Anyway that's my two experienced cents worth.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@chaletgirl, I don't think, personally, your question was received negatively, but as you might imagine, on a big old forum like this, many questions are asked that might be taken the wrong way.
Your thread title was slightly , err, the sort of wording that winds those of us (them, actually, I never get wound up) about "all the gear and no idea" .
A bit like appearing on a pilots forum asking that as you're about to do your private license what parachute should you buy...
So don't, please, take it at all hard.
Hopefully there's been some useful information... 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@philwig, last time (2012) I skied with CMH they were at least strongly discouraged.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@chaletgirl, actually, I now, having re-read the whole thread think you are being a wee bit over-sensitive. Mind you, it's my 40th year skiing (would love to say season but it's only my 14th and these days I'm only part time).
Imthink all the contributions are more or less interesting and helpful. Esp. for me the stuff about the newest inflation bags.
We just inherited a BCA pack and now have the tricky decision on who wears it...Mr Sensible.But.Easily.Led or Mrs Capable.
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| chaletgirl wrote: |
| clarky999 wrote: |
@chaletgirl, IMO if you have to ask the question then you don't really know enough to safely ski in potential avalanche terrain with or without an airbag.
There are a HUGE amount of online resources to educate yourself about avalanches, managing terrain, managing groups, the effectiveness of various equipment, how to use it, etc. Learn about it, think about where you ski (or want to) and what sort of terrain, what dangers are present there and how you manage them, make a decision as to whether an airbag is a good idea. |
You (not just you!) did see the bit where I said I was going to have lessons? In the first post? And generally I've found that asking questions helps with learning. I'm fully aware that I don't know how to ski in potential avalanche terrain - because I've not skied off piste yet. But I want to learn. This question was about me learning about the kit from people more knowledgable, prior to having lessons and then going out with qualified people and investing in (hopefully) the right kit. I'm in resort for the rest of the season and will be back next season (hopefully to live here permanently), so have plenty of time to learn for real. Just wanted to find out some background info.
Despite what some of you guys may think, I'm not stupid. I will get lessons (as per my original post), but I also want to know 'about' off piste, kit, suggestions, etc.
I do appreciate the helpful comments from you guys, thank you |
Hey @chaletgirl, yep, I did!
I wasn't intending to be critical or negative, and I think my post actually comes across as pretty neutral? And I still stand by the statement that you should teach yourself enough to answer the question yourself.
You're definitely getting plenty of good advice here, but as (presumably!) you don't know any of the people posting, how can you judge if it really is good advice? There are so many differing opinions from different groups that you need some basic knowledge to be able to evaluate any advice given.
When you're getting lessons you're safety will be the responsibility of the guide/instructor, and they will provide the necessary equipment for where they take you (or advise what you should bring).
When it comes to making decisions about what equipment you need to keep yourself safe outside of lessons, the responsibility is entirely on you, so I don't think it's unreasonable to advise you that you should teach yourself enough to make the decision yourself. And you won't be able to learn enough about that in just a few lessons: it's a deep and broad topic and you'd have to do some serious reading.
From your first post it doesn't sound like you've done that, and are wanting people to simply tell you. But it's a personal decision based on your personal risk taking and tolerance, so no-one can really answer for you!
IMO the research and learning you'd have to do to make a good decision about buying an airbag would be far more valuable and keep you safer than an airbag.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Wed 2-03-16 19:45; edited 2 times in total
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| under a new name wrote: |
| @chaletgirl, actually, I now, having re-read the whole thread think you are being a wee bit over-sensitive. |
I don't think the OP was being over-sensitive they did border on being patronising, however the OP's inital post didn't really reflect the situation unlike her later posts.
I'm afraid the OP's nickname didn't help and coupled with the inital post did make her sound like someone with little skiing experience and little money.
In that case it seems fair game to say if you can only afford limited stuff get avalanche education and shovel/probe/transceiver before an airbag, but if you've got the cash I'd buy one simply to get use to carrying the extra weight on your back when skiing off piste.
I'm not sure I'd buy the comparison with someone going on a pilots forum and asking wether they should buy a parachute, maybe going on a diving forum and saying should you buy a top of the range dive computer.
To the, OP stick around there is good info here, infact reading around forums gave me more info then certain avalanche talks.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Thu 3-03-16 10:40; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| betterinblack wrote: |
| I'm afraid the OP's nickname didn't help |
True. I couldn't help think that someone who called herself that may as well have called herself Dumblonde382436, (blokes, eh, what are you like  ).
I'm pretty sure she would have got a less patronising tone if she'd called herself JoeBloggs. However, the advice seems fair - and useful - so I hope this comes across and chaletgirl sticks around.
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| chaletgirl wrote: |
| galpinos wrote: |
I think people post slightly aggressively because, with bit fat skis and the go pro culture, people with little/minimal experience are now skiing runs and slopes which used to be the reserve of those with the skills and knowledge.
Avalanches are tricky things. They don’t actually happen that often. As a result, we (i.e. off-piste skiers) don’t often get caught in them. This makes us think we are good at knowing snow conditions, which gives us a false sense of security and makes us think we are safer than we are. Until we’re not, an avalanche happens and things go wrong very quickly.
An airbag is the final bit of kit to get when thinking about off-piste skiing.
1) Instruction – You’ve got this half covered but be aware “Off-piste” lessons will probably not teach you that much about the snow, just how to ski it. The teaching of how to use a beacon, how to shovel properly (there is an art to it believe it or not) and how to use a probe will be perfunctory at best, none existent at worst. I’d look to book some time with a guide to give you a morning discussing how to pick routes, assess snow, safe ski tactics, search properly etc.
2) Beacon/Shovel/Probe – There lots of info on which is the best. IMO, the best is any of the modern 3 antennae beacons that you know how to use really well. Also, get a metal shovel and a decent length probe, don’ get a stupid short probe to save weight.
3) Read – Reinforce everything you’ve learnt. By Bruce Tremper’s “Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain” and read it every night. Get your mates together and bury each other’s beacons and find them. Try actually shovelling/digging. Try probing.
4) Maybe by an airbag…….
If I was to by an airbag I’m pretty taken by the new air powered ones, especially the new Arc’Teryx pack that was launched recently. |
Thank you. This is my fourth season and the first without gammy knees. So I'm not blasé about snow and mountains, any more than I am about the sea (was brought up sailing every holiday with my Dad). But I have to admit that the assumption that someone asking for information means that they are an idiot will make me much less likely to ask for information on here in the future. A shame as I can see from reading that there is a massive amount of knowledge here
I do intend to get instruction for all the physical off-piste stuff. I have a number of friends that are ski instructors and guides so will be asking them for as much information and training as possible on how to ski off-piste, how to use the equipment and as much knowledge that I can take in about the local area and snow. I just wanted to ask on here about that particular bit of equipment as I'd rather use my time with the guys that can teach me, to learn about the immediately important things, physical stuff, transceivers, shovelling and probes. I know a few people that do ski off piste a lot to know basic info of what I need but I would prefer to go to a couple of the guys that do guiding/teaching to get proper instruction. I wouldn't do any dangerous sport without getting proper equipment and training, so the same goes for off piste skiing. But I've always asked on the bike forums for help about uprated brakes/other systems, gear, places to learn, trackdays and racing and have always had a lot of help. Was hoping for the same here. Maybe I don't post enough to be taken seriously?
I didn't realise that a question about air bags from someone wanting to learn was going to be so emotive and received so negatively!! But again, I do appreciate the positive response, thank you |
I actually think this was great post by galpinos
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