 Poster: A snowHead
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| Hurtle wrote: |
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And many aren't really concerned about skiing any better than they can. They just want to have fiun
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I think it's generally more fun doing something well than doing it badly (unless, I suppose, you're unaware that you're doing it badly). |
^^^^ This.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I love having a private lesson every ski trip. I had no idea that I was not doing so many things until I started having regular lessons. But seriously, the guys at TDC and the Snoworks Race Carve course have made me realise what good technique is about and I really enjoy my skiing more. Lessons and skiing for fun are not mutually exclusive. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| kitenski wrote: |
| @Perty, was that a BASI course leading to a qualification or "just" an intensive 4 week course? Sounds a good way to improve over 4 weeks either way! |
Yes, it was 4 weeks without a BASI qualification at the end. So no need to prepare lesson plans, or relearn to snow plough, or do a first aid course.
We were skiing with people who were doing BASI qualifications, but when they had course related things to do, we just had more tuition. Obviously some things are the same...so long and short turns, bumps etc. As has been mentioned earlier, we also did laps with the instructor in one place offering individual feedback which was great, especially for improving longs and shorts. The exhilaration I felt on practising long turns on the day I first felt the snow brush the top of my boot and, even my backside, made the whole thing worth while just on its own. Mark Jones just gave me a big smile and a thumbs up...I was bursting with pride!
We also had an off piste week, but that was somewhat watered down by the wild and snowy weather which limited our options. Still, my off piste technique did improve too.
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Title to the thread rather misses the point - there is a difference between NOT NEEDING lessons and NOT BENEFITTING FROM lessons. I certainly don't need lessons. I don't doubt I would get some benefit from some good ones.
But there is a bit of an implication in the thread that if you are not taking lessons then you are not trying to improve. Which is not necessarily so. I've had very few lessons over the years but I am almost always working on some improvement to my skiing. I read about technique, watch the odd video and chat about it with accomplished skiers - gives me plenty of things to experiment with.
I think I may well have a lesson at Easter, or at least join my kids for their lesson with a new instructor. In part that will be to judge whether I think they are really benefitting from the instruction. But if I think he is good I might well take one on my own. Think it is 6 year since I last had one (good actually). Prior one was about 8 years before that I think.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'm starting to feel that I need to improve if I want to keep skiing with my kids, especially with how fast they skied in our lesson last week.
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(unless, I suppose, you're unaware that you're doing it badly)
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One hope I have is that this perfectly describes junior. The instructor gave up trying to help him after the first hour. Good job the lesson was really a birthday present for the mushette 
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I always enjoy lessons on EOSB, I have done off piste and moguls clinics (they were my nemesis). I had the best instructor I have ever had. He had a superb knack of describing actions and the patience of a saint. After 2 X 2.5 hr clinics I now love moguls. Before I would try them and be shattered by the time I got to bottom but now knowing a better technique it's much easier and less tiring. Anything that saves on energy is money well spent.
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@jedster, I think if you don't benefit from lessons then you don't need them. Point is more distinguishing subjective need (want) from objective need.
I've had more than 10 weeks of lessons and cry out for more. My wife has had 3 and thinks they're now unnecessary. I want to get better; she wants to do nothing more than glide down blues enjoying the view.
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Anything that saves on energy is money well spent
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Yes! The best of many good things I've got out of lessons with Inside Out Skiing, is the ability to ski all day
(most recently for 13 consecutive days) without getting tired. Which, at my advanced age and relative lack of fitness, feels nothing short of miraculous. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Hurtle,
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| abc wrote: |
It's safe to assume many believe they're having enough fun they don't care to have "more" fun.
Let's face it, learning anything is fun in itself. That's why many people are attracted to the challenge.
I don't particularly care to improve my skiing skill or not any more. I think I ski rather well.  Still, I enjoy the improvement for the sake of improvement. |
Except I don't think this describes most holidaymakers - their fun isn't in the improvement it's in the hacking around based on their abilities. And of course they are oblivious to the fact that they'll never actually improve based on a single block of 6 days skiing annually.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
the ability to ski all day
(except for the odd hot chocolate stop and long delicious lunch) without getting tired
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FIFY 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Haven't had lessons last few holidays although was tempted. Having a ski holiday at all was the priority. Also depends on circumstances - would have felt wasteful to do half day ski school with the Sella Ronda to play with instead. Same applied to first visit 3 valleys. In other resorts/ skiing with small person in tow lessons to improve would appeal more.
Started the no lessons thing when it became apparent that the thing holding me back the most was my frankly shocking ankle dorsiflexion, followed by a lack of confidence with "edges" that I wasn't supposed to ski over even if I could ski the slope the edge led to. So faced with a narrow piste I'd ski like a numpty, faced with a narrow corridor marked on a big piste I'd be fine. Lessons on holiday weren't going to fix these issues - stretching regularly and just manning up and getting on with it would. Lessons telling me my weight was too far back and to bend my knees when more flexion was impossible was just going to be irksome!
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You know it makes sense.
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| risb98 wrote: |
| I took a lesson this year in Montalbert, the last one being in Les Karellis in 2008. Boys 17 and 15 are naturals having gone through ESF levels and whilst I can keep up with them, when the conditions get difficult, they look exactly the same, like they aren't trying. I wanted the (ESF) instructor to pull my technique apart, almost start from scratch or point out some fundamental flaw, but he couldn't or wouldn't. Conditions weren't great, snowing, poor visibility, which made it more difficult. He said things were okay, we are all different and asked what I wanted from the skiing. I can ski fast, in control, but I don't look like my kids, I'm either upright, relaxed and slow or full on, hard carving turns, hands almost touching the snow, with very little in between. He said that is because I'm not them. Not sure if it was genius or he didn't understand what I'm looking for. Left a bit frustrated, perhaps I'm thinking too much, and should just relax and enjoy what is a wonderful thing to be able to do |
Try Martin Cuchet who runs Les Etoiles des Sport in Montalbert and is a former trainer of one the French ski teams.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Orange200,
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I think if you don't benefit from lessons then you don't need them.
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I agree with that. I don't accept though that if you would benefit you necessarily NEED. I think you have to twist the definition of "need" a lot to make that stack up!
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I've had more than 10 weeks of lessons and cry out for more. My wife has had 3 and thinks they're now unnecessary. I want to get better; she wants to do nothing more than glide down blues enjoying the view.
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And you've done exactly what I was challenging - implied that if you are not taking lessons you are not bothered about improving. That is not true for everyone. I'm no rock star but I've had less than 3 weeks of lessons and I can carve nice short and long turns on hard pistes, ski the fall line in bumps and ski off-piste in pretty much any conditions smoothly and competently. Because I've worked hard at improving.
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Poster: A snowHead
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How about throwing this observation into the mix..many of us (me included) have thought I don't "need" a lesson. But behind that thought is a plethora of reasons and excuses why we form that view, often utterly unrelated to "need",even if we that word. Speaking for myself these have included:
1. Ski instructors are rubbish (esp ESF)
2. They don't teach me the way I want to be taught. I don't understand what they are trying to get me to do.
3.If he says one more time "shulders down ze slope"...I think I'll punch him. Yes...I know I lean back..stop telling me that and help me fix it. (Though this is a recollection of the 1990s for me, just in January this year in Val D, I observed an ESF instructor yelling at his sole, clearly intermediate client as they were going down some 18 inch deep powder lapping the slalom stade "don't lean back...you're leaning back..." Like a mantra with no other helpful advice Lap after lap).
4. It costs a lot and whether he or she is good, I won't know this until I get to the lesson.
5. If it's cr*p, I've wasted half a day.
6. (Me 15 years ago)I get scared when they take you to the top of a steep run. I don't want to be scared, so it's best not to take a lesson.
7. I hate being criticised...so best not to take a lesson as my ego can't cope.
8. I'd rather ski all week with my mates and if I take a lesson I'll miss a good lunch ...
9.I can get down most stuff and my friends and family think I'm really good, so that's enough for me.
10. I don't really need to ski that tricky black run this week, I'm happy just pottering for the rest of my ski days at the level I'm at at the moment...
11. I'm too set in my ways to change at my time of life.
12. I just can't be ars*ed.
13. If I get better then I'll have no excuses not to ski the scary stuff.
14. What if the tuition is really good, but I still can't improve...
15. Why do people get excited by off piste..I don't get it, so I' not bothered about trying to learn to do it ...
And finally..not that I have ever thought this..."I ski like a god...who clearly does not need a lesson".
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@jedster, I think I got it. I was thrown as you stressed the verb; in fact you're stressing the noun? A person may need some form of improvement, but it doesn't have to be delivered by formal lessons? I can go with that.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Part of the reason that I've never had lessons (not properly) is that I didn't really appreciate how it worked. My first few trips were with TOs on the cheap, and the extra £150 for a group lesson would have blown the budget. By the end of the first trip I was a decent enough parallel(ish) skier to get down any blues in control and slowly make my way down steep reds. So with the attitude of 'I can ski already' the second trip was just improving on that. By my third trip I'd studied enough Darren Turner videos to think I was Aksel and was skiing with sH I wanted to learn off, so lessons took a back seat again. Fourth trip was when it really made sense that I should get some lessons. I've been steadily improving anyway to what I'd like to think is a competent red run skier. 5th trip was a Bash and it isn't actually until speaking to Admin that the penny dropped about private lessons. Because I could ski reasonably it didn't make sense to pay to be in a group, but hearing Admin say that he tries to get tuition every season, and the benefit he gets from it, clarified things for me. I'd never really thought about the possibility of just getting 90 minutes or so, I'd always thought it was a week long commitment. Also seeing pictures and videos highlight how lazy my stance is, even though I don't feel backseat or really suffer from leg burn.
Next trip is the EoSB and I'll probably look to get at least a bit of tuition.
| abc wrote: |
| It's safe to assume many believe they're having enough fun they don't care to have "more" fun. |
I think there are a lot of people like that, and I think it's fine. If they aren't a danger and are happy with their lot then let them be.
| abc wrote: |
Let's face it, learning anything is fun in itself. That's why many people are attracted to the challenge.
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I'm slightly different in that I hate actually learning, I just want to be better.
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I realize that some people enjoy doing things badly, but I'm not one of them.
I don't understand why you'd hobble around for years on your skis or snowboard, when all it takes is a few hours of application and you can really fly.
It's not a lifetime challenge, it's just not that hard. It's not like physics or even rock climbing: anyone basically athletic can learn. Even instructors can do it.
But then I remember when I first learnt to ski... I was still practicing those parallel turn things whilst everyone else was busy straight-lining the slope. I wanted to learn to ski properly, they just wanted a laugh. I'm still laughing.
I remember one of my mates learning to cross-country ski in Finland. The locals laughed at him because they thought he was drunk: adults who fall over skiing in Finland must be drunk. It's not that hard, everyone can do it, when they're sober.
So I think it's an attitude thing. That is, if you want to learn, you'll learn. You can do it any number of ways - whatever works for you.
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A "ski god" to me would be like a "god of pavement walking". It's a daft idea because it's not that hard. Sure, you can train for races if that's your thing, but that's not the same thing. There's a difference between learning to drive and learning to win F1.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
anyone basically athletic can learn.
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Not to mention anyone basically unathletic. 
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@philwig, I think that there are those who struggle to learn and those who pick it up naturally though. Take my old man, a week of lessons (3hrs most days) and hours on the nursery slopes. By the end of it he had improved a lot but was still in plough. He got there by sheer bloody mindedness and his attitude was certainly right, but by comparison I was probably at that level by the end of my first 2 hours on skis. To some the movements make sense, to others it's just illogical.
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| SnoodyMcFlude wrote: |
| abc wrote: |
Let's face it, learning anything is fun in itself. That's why many people are attracted to the challenge.
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I'm slightly different in that I hate actually learning, I just want to be better. |
Except learning skiing isn't like any classroom learning. It's a guided discovery of sort.
Unless you dislike discovery (of anything unexpected), that is. I would think people who pay to go to a foreign country to ski would embrace discovery...
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@abc, yep, but I like discovery on my own to an extent.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Belgy, possibly. I'd say it's different to running though, and to a lesser extent cycling. Both of those people can generally get to an intermediate type level a lot easier than they do with skiing. It's also not usually something that people do for only one or two weeks a year, it's easy to cycle or run all year round.
Edit: Wha? the post I referred to has vanished 
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I've sat in so many bars, coaches, front rooms, listening to intermediate skiers say '... I need lessons ...' - hmmm.....really?
If I started listing all those things I do that I could improve, crikey, not sure where I'd stop!
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Wed 24-02-16 21:22; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@SnoodyMcFlude, Sorry, was going to edit and hit delete. I agree running and cycling not quite the same but climbing does provide an interesting comparison - you'd rarely hear a climber so quickly suggest lessons are an integral part of involvement and enjoyment of the sport.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Belgy, yep, climbing is like that, as is swimming. My other hobby of Motorsport is the same. In fact people will spend a fortune on their car before they think that the problem could be them.
But football, cricket & tennis are all things where people train with a coach to improve. The first two are generally to play as part of a team but I suspect that plenty of people are advised to get coaching when they play tennis.
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I suspect that for a lot of one week a year intermediate skiers fitness, at least ski fitness, is holding them back from improving.
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You know it makes sense.
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Leading on from Perty's post
16. I've had many lessons. When I start thinking about whether my head is looking up, my shoulders are level, facing down the fall-line (or not, depending on but definitely not "turning" ), my core is strong, my hip (which one ) is pushed forward, my bum is not sticking out, my knees are bent, (and one is "driving" ), my ankles are flexing, my thighs are high, my ankles roll, little toe big toe (that came in somewhere), pedaling too, long leg, short leg, weight distribution on each ski, up and down, no, that's old fashioned now (or is it ), on your toes, no, fore and aft balance. Stuff I can't recollect at the moment. And that's without all the pole planting stuff.
So I stand at the top of the hill, paralysed with confusion and indecision and my friends say "Just bloody ski it!"
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@maggi, you should do what I do a fall over standing still, no lessons required
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Giffordpikes, it's getting up again whilst laughing hysterically that's the hard part  .
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@maggi, Love it! I feel like that sometimes too, and it can take some of the fun out of it.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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True @maggi, I need lessons for that
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Nice @maggi, you make it sound like learning to drive. I have to press only slightly on one pedal while releasing the other pedal, checking my mirrors, ensuring it's in the right gear, not pressing too hard, checking my mirrors again, releasing the handbrake... and that's the first three seconds...
The best, or worst, bit is, when you get to that level of detail, experts will disagree with each other
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Belgy wrote: |
| I agree running and cycling not quite the same but climbing does provide an interesting comparison - you'd rarely hear a climber so quickly suggest lessons are an integral part of involvement and enjoyment of the sport. |
That's an interesting point. I think to a certain extent skiing is quite a "technical" sport, and does lend itself to making significant improvements in performance through technical coaching (or ski lessons for holiday skiers). I don't think skiing is unique in this, golf, for example, also seems to have strong culture of lessons and coaching if people are keen to drive down their handicap.
A guy I've skied with is a very good skier, having skied a lot from a young age including training with the local ski race club in the French resort where his parents owned property and he spent many weeks each season. If he wanted he could easily pass all the exams he needs to qualify at the top level of instructor exams, and is the kind of skier who is inspiring to watch. But he's nowhere near being good enough to race at a national or international standard, despite his extensive time on snow and being coached. He went to Loughborough University to do his degree and because of his physique (he's very tall and generally very athletic) he was introduced to rowing, and within 9 months had been selected for the GB rowing development squad.
I found it very interesting that even with his very extensive skiing experience he could never compete at the highest level in skiing, yet was selected as a possible international competitor in another sport which he had only been doing for less than a year. Perhaps some sports, skiing included, have foundation skills which are quite technical and benefit highly from technical coaching, whereas others sports have foundation skills which are less technical, and the coaching required to get to high performance levels focuses more on strength, conditioning, tactics, etc? I think there are parallels to this at a recreational level, for people taking ski holidays as well as other sporting activities such as golf.
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Perty - no 13 I completely understand! However, I always have at least one lesson a trip and every few years a weeks "clinic" which has dramatically broadened my comfort zone.
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@davidof, I suspect that for a lot of one week a year intermediate skiers fitness, at least ski fitness, is holding them back from improving.
You are so right on that one. Then again many people aren't that bothered it's just a holiday to them and they are quite happy to cruise around from bar to lunch to bar having fun with their mates. Nothing wrong with that at all IMHO unless you moan about never improving.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
I don't think skiing is unique in this, golf, for example, also seems to have strong culture of lessons and coaching if people are keen to drive down their handicap.
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In skiing we don't have the pressure of handicaps unless you are competing, which most intermediates are not.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
A "ski god" to me would be like a "god of pavement walking". It's a daft idea because it's not that hard. Sure, you can train for races if that's your thing, but that's not the same thing. There's a difference between learning to drive and learning to win F1.
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Hmm - not sure I agree it that easy if only because only a small fraction of the people I see skiing are any good at it. I'm not assessing them against a high bar - not pros or racers - just decent recreational standard
e.g., what proportion of skiers on the hill can really carve short-linked turns on hard pack? low
what proportion can ski the fall line in bumps ? low
what proportion can flow off-piste in less than helpful conditions? low
Don't get me wrong - I don't think you have to be a talented athlete to be able to do that stuff but unless you really are talented (I'm not) you have to put some serious hours of purposeful practice to get there.
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I agree running and cycling not quite the same but climbing does provide an interesting comparison - you'd rarely hear a climber so quickly suggest lessons are an integral part of involvement and enjoyment of the sport.
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Climbing is reasonably technical (though not as much as skiing, tennis or golf IMO) but it would be amenable to coaching. The thing is that climbing is not rooted in competition (yes there are climbing competitions but that is not where the sport comes from) so it hasn't really had a competitive coaching culture. When you start out you usually climb with someone more experienced who will help you with a few basic moves then you learn the rest by trial and error. I don't think it has to be that way, it's just cultural.
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FAQ
