 Poster: A snowHead
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I've sat in so many bars, coaches, front rooms, listening to intermediate skiers say '...I don't need lessons any more...' - hmmm.....really?
Roll back the clock ...
By 2003, I'd skied for 20 years and was reasonable on anything - bit challenged in deep stuff through lack of practice. Kids arrived, 2003 and 2005, so for 5 years flapped around with them, and indeed benefitted from the slow skiing which was needed - much better edge control and balance - but short days. By 2010, youngest was already showing promise, so the next five years was spent coaching, focussing on the skiing of others, not on myself. Other than a brief weekends' coaching with Dave Morris in Courchevel, my skiing improved only through watching others and incrementally improving this, improving that...
Christmas 2015 saw a weird mix of boiler plate and brown porridge at Crans Montana and I saw to my horror that my 10 year old had far better control on ice than me. He was getting an edge in where I was skidding. As I passed him sideways I thought 'enough is enough' ... Even though an instructor from the 'official' school was also passing me sideways on the same slope, I knew that it was time to do something, not about my skis but about my skills.
So this week past I went to see Yves Caillet at Swiss Mountain Sports, and booked up a private session. As always, Yves carefully listened to what I wanted and then allocated Sasha to me for a long morning. From Metabief, Sasha was cool, pragmatic and a man who loves his hills. 'I want all my faults highlighted clearly....bad habits...laziness....attitude...'.
'...OK...now we ski...and I look to see how you are...;' and we get off at Cry D-Err and go straight onto the steep Nationale. Holy C**p I'm not used to skiing THIS fast....but the piste is empty and we can blat down. I don't think Sasha can see a single thing about my skiing at this kind of speed but I am completely wrong. Like all good coaches, he has been carefully observing. When we stop he lists a series of faults - after a polite '..good basic position, but we need to work on forward position, angulation and, well, let's ski a bit more and I will see...', he unleashes a series of tough exercises, all interesting and challenging. All of them are designed to get my edges in and keep them there. It's good that I had three days' of free skiing before doing this morning, I'm reasonably tuned-in and flexible. One exercise in particular gets a breakthrough in my technique - punching forward down the fall-line on steeps, crouching and then jumping around the turns. Suddenly my edges are in on ice, and staying there....
At the end of the morning I am exhausted and very, very satisfied. Over the next three days I realise that what I saw previously as steep and icy is now simply a slope to be skied. I am astonished at the step-change in my technique. While following and imitating good skiers did some good things over the past few years. an intensive session with a high quality coach has had profound effect. I wonder whether those years consolidating meant that I could make really good use of a session like this - or whether I should have had intensive coaching far more frequently. Then I remember the tiny woman I met once at a friend's chalet down the hill - Black Crows a metre taller than her - as a lawyer she took a year off and skied with a coach every day for a year. She went from novice to astonishing expert. OK....I will aim for more frequent sessions...
The next time I hear '...I don't need lessons any more...' I may not say anything, just smile wryly...and maybe hand over one of Yves' cards for Swiss Mountain Sports....worth every penny....
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I've been riding for 20 years and always have at least one lesson whilst away. Carving, freestyle etc.
Always good to learn new things.
Glad you enjoyed your lesson.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@valais2, excellent post. I always strive to have a lesson if I can (and I first went skiing in 1973!). Money wisely spent, I think. Next one 10am, March 15. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Too true. Looking forward to our annual lesson this coming Monday with 3 friends, personally after 30 years of skiing. There is always room for learning and improvement.
The better you ski, the more confident you are. The more confident you are, the more you'll enjoy skiing because conditions are rarely perfect.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@valais2, very true, thought I was a good skier until I started doing some BASI courses and training!! The more you improve, the more you realise you have to learn!!
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People don't need lessons though. They are wanted by those who want to improve at a faster and more technically correct rate though.
Personally I love having lessons. The benefit I have had over friends who have skied more and for longer is obvious.
I think once you haven't had them for a while though it's hard to get back into it.
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| Quote: |
When last year I fell off piste, unfortunately under a chair, lost my skis and poles and tumbled down some distance to turn round and find my 17 year old son was coming down with my skis on his shoulder and 16 year old daughter with the recovered poles, I realised my job was done
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Kind of where I am, except my kids are 19 and 20. However, I have had far more tuition over the years than the kids have. In their favour they first skied when they were 4 and 5, and I was mid twenties when I started, plus the elder one has done two seasons and the younger is half way through her first at the moment.
BUT, if you look at my skiing next to that of my other half and another mate we've always gone skiing with, they have barely had any tuition, and there is a world of difference between the way they ski and the way I do. However, they are happy doing what they do and seem to have little desire to change, and that describes an awful lot of people who go skiing.
So yes, tuition makes a lot of difference, but so does starting young - all us mad keen skiers who start our kids off when they are little have given the kids a big advantage over ourselves!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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As a completely self taught skier (there were no instructors at the small suburban slopes round Stockholm where I learnt) I have always been a bit shy about having my technique criticised. However after coming back to skiing after a long absence I found I no longer had the the raw strength to compensate for failings in my technique so I have resolved to have lessons next year.
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@valais2,
That mirrors my story almost exactly, even the instructors comment last week (must be a standard polite put down). I was really pleased that was his major criticism.
| Quote: |
| ..good basic position, but you need to get more forward. Too upright. |
It was my first lesson for about 20 years, and I was very nervous skiing that fast that close to other people. I usually try to avoid slopes with other skiers on them
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I don't need lessons any more. Not because my skiing is perfect, simply because I don't really enjoy ski lessons and "drills". I'd rather just be out there having fun. I think that's what people generally mean when they say "I don't need lessons anymore", as in they can ski competently enough not to NEED lessons and can enjoy free skiing with their family and friends. For most people it's just a holiday, not some sort of intense training programme.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I took a lesson this year in Montalbert, the last one being in Les Karellis in 2008. Boys 17 and 15 are naturals having gone through ESF levels and whilst I can keep up with them, when the conditions get difficult, they look exactly the same, like they aren't trying. I wanted the (ESF) instructor to pull my technique apart, almost start from scratch or point out some fundamental flaw, but he couldn't or wouldn't. Conditions weren't great, snowing, poor visibility, which made it more difficult. He said things were okay, we are all different and asked what I wanted from the skiing. I can ski fast, in control, but I don't look like my kids, I'm either upright, relaxed and slow or full on, hard carving turns, hands almost touching the snow, with very little in between. He said that is because I'm not them. Not sure if it was genius or he didn't understand what I'm looking for. Left a bit frustrated, perhaps I'm thinking too much, and should just relax and enjoy what is a wonderful thing to be able to do
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Was in a chalet in Plagne 1800 a few years back and a fellow guest was an archetypal 'I never had lessons, tha knows, don't need them, waste of money etc etc' bloke. Anyway, he asked if he could join my brother and I the following morning as he had yet to ski the Bellecote area. Anyway, it was tricky, white out, deep snow, cold. We did our best to help him, waiting a long time for him to catch up etc before he told us, after one run, that he had to meet his wife and went down.
We didn't see him at dinner that evening but his wife told us he'd gone straight to the ski school and booked some lessons. All's well that ends well, I suppose.
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You know it makes sense.
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We regularly have lessons. I've not been skiing very long really, the OH has a 20 year head start on me and she has them too. We usually have them when Jnr is having some, we'll probably have them less regularly when he stops coming away with us.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| risb98 wrote: |
| I took a lesson this year in Montalbert, the last one being in Les Karellis in 2008. Boys 17 and 15 are naturals having gone through ESF levels and whilst I can keep up with them, when the conditions get difficult, they look exactly the same, like they aren't trying. I wanted the (ESF) instructor to pull my technique apart, almost start from scratch or point out some fundamental flaw, but he couldn't or wouldn't. Conditions weren't great, snowing, poor visibility, which made it more difficult. He said things were okay, we are all different and asked what I wanted from the skiing. I can ski fast, in control, but I don't look like my kids, I'm either upright, relaxed and slow or full on, hard carving turns, hands almost touching the snow, with very little in between. He said that is because I'm not them. Not sure if it was genius or he didn't understand what I'm looking for. Left a bit frustrated, perhaps I'm thinking too much, and should just relax and enjoy what is a wonderful thing to be able to do |
Sounds like you didn't get the right instructor for what you were looking for. If you ask on here before your next holiday, you'll almost certainly get some recommendations for instructors who can give you the feedback you're looking for.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I think there are some naturals who can become very good skiers with little tuition. I'm not one of them but my younger son is. He had one week's beginner lessons in Austria at 9. He's an excellent skier. When he completely destroyed a ski at the top of the Grande Motte in Tignes he got his cousin to carry the broken one and skied to the bottom of Val d'Isere on the other. He confessed to having found the bumps difficult and swapped legs several times.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I am the best skier on the mountain. How could anybody possibly teach me anything?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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If skiing was any more than a holiday, then I'd definitely consider having lessons. I haven't had any since the late 80s after all. But since I'm only on holiday, enjoying myself, not competing with anyone, not endangering myself or anyone else, then I'll carry on as I am.
Obviously I'd love to be able to ski more often, but there are too many limiting factors.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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The better a "recreational" skier you are, the worse a skier you realise you are. We were lucky enough to spend 4 weeks this Jan in Val D on a course with ICESI being taught by Mark Jones (mainly) ,Rupert Tildesley and Dave Cowell (the "course" as such involved a variety of group configurations, including skiing with BASI 1 and 2 students of varying degrees of ability).
What a great bunch of guys. Fantastic instruction which never made you feel useless. They always had something nice to say, followed by individual feedback about how to improve and what you were doing wrong. Lots of video footage which we could review projected onto the wall over a quick coffee before getting out there again. The changes were subtly built up from the first week, and even though Mark reminded us time and again that Mr P and I had skied so much over the years that it would be difficult to change things, I know we both came back far better, and with a better understanding of what we needed to do to "own" the changes. Things were a little complicated by the fairly wild conditions for weeks one and two, but even that was a learning opportunity. Itching to get back out on the snow now!
I can heartily recommend them.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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If you're happy with your level of skiing and enjoy your time on holiday then you don't need lessons.
Personally having got into off-piste during the last couple of years I want to improve and take on ever more challenging slopes so I've reverted back to taking lessons every holiday. The problem I found with group lessons(through ESF) is that I was stuck in no-mans land between class 3 which(for the benefit of people who haven't used them) is the top piste group that I found too slow and the class 4 group(which is off-piste) that I couldn't keep up with. I ended up just working on powder skiing in between pistes until I was at a level where I could keep up with the off-piste class and then went back to taking lessons.
Despite the many horror stories about them being rubbish, I've for the most part had good lessons from them in Tignes and Val Thorens.
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@risb98, @risb98, ....that sounds terrible, and at complete odds to my experience of the best coaches I have had ... And perty's experience too. The good coaches take time and exercise great patience in understanding both aspirations and problems, and then think hard about solutions, and change course if things are not a help. Your guy sounds very slack.
I had some bad experiences at ESF and ESS many years ago, not dissimilar to your own, and switched to small, dedicated independents like New Gen and Swiss Mountain Sports - and have nothing but praise for them.
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I think "need" is the wrong word (and I'm sure it was chosen by the OP to encourage debate). I think the questions is could a skier, at any level, benefit from working with a good instructor? I'm sure the answer to that is yes, providing you find the right instructor for you (and far too many are not good enough). But whether you should have lessons is another question again, and depends on your ambitions for your skiing. I'd never argue that everyone should have lessons, but if you want to improve as quickly as possible then working with a (good) instructor is probably the most effective way of changing your skiing.
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@rob@rar, well judged and nicely put, with some neat linguistic distinctions. I think that sharing experiences of the good schools and coaches may help to exert upwards pressure on quality.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Considering top racers from World cup still do all sort of drills every single day with their coaches, it proves you always need "lesson". At some point most likely not anymore with instructor from ski school, as their ski abilities and ski knowledge is lower then yours, but there's always something to improve... even if you just won overall World cup 
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Having skied some newly mounted skis with a trad camber and a very stiff flat tail - while I skied like a god on groomed they totally kicked my arsse in the bumps I feel I definitely need lessons. Was going to start a thread on is trad ski design obsolete but I suspect my inability to pivot a long flat tail in the bumps is probably down to me.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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One of the most interesting thing I gathered on my course was an acknowledgment by our instructors that not all drills work for everyone. Sometimes one way of tackling a problem might make you worse, or just confused. How refreshing!
"Needing" lessons is an interesting concept. I could hack down the mountain reasonably well (and even, dare I say, with some style) before our course, but in certain conditions it was a bit of a battle. I'd still go out in flat light, heavy snow fall etc, but it could be a right PIA.
While I can't say my technique is up there with Lindsay Vonn (I wish!) , I do enjoy the feeling that things flow more easily and I'm not fighting the conditions to the point where I'm not enjoying the experience. If improving your enjoyment isn't a reason to admit to your self you "need" lessons I don't know what is!
I would agree though, sometimes it comes down to the quality of the instructor and how they work with you. It can still be frustrating if you feel like the instructor is speaking a different language (even one who speaks English as a native language!). After my early ESF experiences back in the 90s I was very wary, and now I would only go with someone who came highly recommended. I think we also benefitted in January with the consistency of approach...in this case the BASI way I guess, without it being too rigid.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Perty, was that a BASI course leading to a qualification or "just" an intensive 4 week course? Sounds a good way to improve over 4 weeks either way!
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needing lessons and wanting lessons are two very different things.
Ski school and lessons are also two very different things.
The way i see it is booking ski school is something sold to you by your TO, After three years of ski school you are comfortable enough to ski with friends for a week. After a few years of not using ski school and my other halfs first trip i decided to do group lessons again as it was just the two of us, I think i enjoyed the company more than the lessons, to much of a stop start feel to it. A year later i booked a private lesson for the first two mornings of the trip and what a difference the one on one makes. I was skiing completely different with my right foot downhill than i was my left. i was a lot more attacking on my weaker foot  never once was this pointed out to me in a group session, If it was and i felt i was constantly progressing I'd do ski school every trip, Instead I fell i got to a level that the instructors were happy with and was just left to it.
That could be a reason people think they dont need lessons, the dont know any different than ski school
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You know it makes sense.
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@Stecleary84, sounds like you needed to find a different ski school!
IME it's not accurate to say that private lessons = good, group lessons = bad, but it is fair to say there are both good and bad instructors. The skill is ending up with a good instructor who is able to help you make the changes in your skiing to raise your performance and meet your goals.
BTW, welcome to snowHeads!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Stecleary84 wrote: |
needing lessons and wanting lessons are two very different things.
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Dead right. I don't want or need lessons. I'm all about having fun when I ski and I'm at a level where I'm very comfortable skiing everything I want to ski. If I felt that I wasn't enjoying my skiing because I wasn't good enough then I would want lessons for sure. The last time I did have a few private lessons was when moving from traditional long skinny straight skis to modern shorter fatter shaped ones as I felt that my technique needed modifying to get the most out of the newer kit. It was a bit of a new learning curve and that really did make a big difference at the time. But now I don't see any point in lessons, I'd rather spend the time just skiing around and enjoying the terrain. But I do keep an eye on how other expert skiers tackle things and watch the odd tutorial video. But that's more than enough for me at this stage.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| rob@rar wrote: |
@Stecleary84, sounds like you needed to find a different ski school!
BTW, welcome to snowHeads! |
Agreed i often thought that, but to be fair I'd say i'm more the problem than the instructors.
I like speed, i like to progress quickly and get annoyed standing around waiting for others.
for me one on one is more productive
Thanks for the welcome, been around for a while just lurking 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Stecleary84 wrote: |
| Agreed i often thought that, but to be fair I'd say i'm more the problem than the instructors. |
| Stecleary84 wrote: |
| I like speed, i like to progress quickly and get annoyed standing around waiting for others. for me one on one is more productive |
Managing the expectations and differences across a group can sometimes mean compromises are necessary, but there are ways of minimising these. WE will often use "lap coaching" where the instructor sets drills or tasks for each individual in the group, and then stands by the side of the piste so everyone laps around at their own pace, getting individual feedback. Means you get the maximum amount of activity for the group, but the tasks are differentiated according to to individual needs. Works well, although does mean that the instructor needs to work hard to keep focused on each person.
As for speed, sometimes you will get deeper changes if you slow down. We will do this with our more experienced skiers because it more easily exposes their faults, as well as providing a good opportunity to address them. Speed masks faults...!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@risb98, if you want your skiing rebuilding from scratch there are some good ways to do it, whereabouts do you live as one option maybe some targetted indoor sessions.
I think I had my skiing rebuilt (well at least the foundations relaid) by doing some indoor training with these guys http://insideoutskiing.com/ then the BASI L1 course in Leeds.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Stecleary84 wrote: |
| Agreed i often thought that, but to be fair I'd say i'm more the problem than the instructors. |
| Stecleary84 wrote: |
| I like speed, i like to progress quickly and get annoyed standing around waiting for others. for me one on one is more productive |
Managing the expectations and differences across a group can sometimes mean compromises are necessary, but there are ways of minimising these. WE will often use "lap coaching" where the instructor sets drills or tasks for each individual in the group, and then stands by the side of the piste so everyone laps around at their own pace, getting individual feedback. Means you get the maximum amount of activity for the group, but the tasks are differentiated according to to individual needs. Works well, although does mean that the instructor needs to work hard to keep focused on each person.
As for speed, sometimes you will get deeper changes if you slow down. We will do this with our more experienced skiers because it more easily exposes their faults, as well as providing a good opportunity to address them. Speed masks faults...! |
That sounds like the type of lesson I'd like, the really funny thing is i know how hard it is to teach a group because im a cycle coach
Fully agree speed masks faults and slowing things down for me gave me stuff to work on. I never thought i was beyond ski school or anything like it just wasn't enjoying it. I spend so much of my life working up hills i like the let go on my way down as a reward, Skiing is a week of rewards
when it was pointed out to me what i was doing wrong it made skiing even more enjoyable
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
I knew that it was time to do something, not about my skis but about my skills.
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@valais2, very keen observation. Not common though. Most people just spend a load of money on another pair of skis that are supposed to be better for that condition!
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If skiing was any more than a holiday, then I'd definitely consider having lessons. I haven't had any since the late 80s after all. But since I'm only on holiday, enjoying myself, not competing with anyone, not endangering myself or anyone else, then I'll carry on as I am.
Obviously I'd love to be able to ski more often, but there are too many limiting factors. |
The only drawback of lesson I could see is the cost. Other than that, lessons are usually fun and enjoyable if you have the right teachers. So it's not mutually exclusive to have an enjoyable holiday while having some lessons.
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when it was pointed out to me what i was doing wrong it made skiing even more enjoyable
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Stecleary84, I think you mean having your "doing wrong" corrected made skiing more enjoyable?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| primoz wrote: |
Considering top racers from World cup still do all sort of drills every single day with their coaches, it proves you always need "lesson".
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No it doesn't.
All it proves is that there is always something that can be improved.
Most recreational skiers aren't interested in getting the very last possible kmH of speed, as a racer is. And many aren't really concerned about skiing any better than they can. They just want to have fiun on their week's holiday./
But for anybody who does want to improve their skiing, then some type of lesson or coaching will be likely to help them do so.,
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I love lessons, there's so much I'd like to learn and be better at, but they're just so expensive! No I don't need lessons to enjoy skiing safely around the mountain, but I'd need hours of tuition to properly get off the intermediate plateau.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
And many aren't really concerned about skiing any better than they can. They just want to have fiun
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I think it's generally more fun doing something well than doing it badly (unless, I suppose, you're unaware that you're doing it badly).
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| Quote: |
And many aren't really concerned about skiing any better than they can. They just want to have fiun
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I think it's generally more fun doing something well than doing it badly (unless, I suppose, you're unaware that you're doing it badly). |
It's safe to assume many believe they're having enough fun they don't care to have "more" fun.
Let's face it, learning anything is fun in itself. That's why many people are attracted to the challenge.
I don't particularly care to improve my skiing skill or not any more. I think I ski rather well. Still, I enjoy the improvement for the sake of improvement.
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FAQ
, lost my skis and poles and tumbled down some distance to turn round and find my 17 year old son was coming down with my skis on his shoulder and 16 year old daughter with the recovered poles, I realised my job was done and needed to address my own "issues".
