 Poster: A snowHead
|
| ski3 wrote: |
@tomj, unusually the ATS guy is not necessarily wrong.
Basically nearly all road cars are refined during design and testing to err into gentle understeer when pushed too fast into a corner, meaning that it's desirable to have ultimately less grip at the front than rear as the driver at the point of panic when realising they've overcooked the speed of approach naturally takes their foot off the throttle. It's at this point that having more rear grip comes into play to hold the car as far as possible in a transitional state that sorts itself out safely inspite of any driver input.
In your tyre fitment, the primancys should have a slightly higher ultimate grip advantage in general (non winter) use than the crossclimates, so he is on balance a higher percentage correct in this instance.
The conundrum comes if they are used in snow or very low grip situations, then the crossclimates performance eclipses that of the primancys.
Which would prompt different advice.
You can get even more difference front to rear when using chains, so it's not difficult to see scenarios in which you'd have to drive with great care.
All of these probably don't have as much influence as driver attitude when driving in adverse grip situations though. |
In this situation Ats guy was wrong 100%. If in doubt, check cars manual.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Just thinking about the whole chains debate, and what ski3 wrote.
If the one-week-a-year punters like myself fit chains (or socks) on summer tyres, are we actually causing more of a problem than if we kept all four wheels the same?
I guess for going up a hill one would want the grip, on a front wheel drive. But descending must be a different game entirely, for all the reasons set out above.
I know that lots of Snow-heads make their life in the mountains (lucky them!) and no doubt develop a greater experience and skill than the average punter. All advise chains + winter tyres. But I wonder if chains + summer tyres is actually worse than summer tyres alone?
(Or, is the conclusion not to self drive? Unless one can budget for a set of chains and winter tyres, naturally.)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
[quote="tomj"
If the one-week-a-year punters like myself fit chains (or socks) on summer tyres, are we actually causing more of a problem than if we kept all four wheels the same?
I guess for going up a hill one would want the grip, on a front wheel drive. But descending must be a different game entirely, for all the reasons set out above.
I know that lots of Snow-heads make their life in the mountains (lucky them!) and no doubt develop a greater experience and skill than the average punter. All advise chains + winter tyres. But I wonder if chains + summer tyres is actually worse than summer tyres alone?
(Or, is the conclusion not to self drive? Unless one can budget for a set of chains and winter tyres, naturally.)[/quote]
Chains on the fronts (for FWD) and summer tyres is not great. You'll get the risk of oversteer. But choose summer tyres only for a descent and you'll find that you have very little braking at all. You'll be flying downhill totally out of control. Understeer, oversteer, 4 wheel drift, the whole shebang all at once.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
@tomj, the thing is that summer tyres and winter in mountains is a 'no-no'. It is not a matter of one week - I am using winter tyres here in Belgium, and I am ussualy a careful driver without accidents for the last 20 years ... but I know and need winter tyres for that split second when I hit black ice, etc without noticing it or when I see a car spining in front of me and making a sudden manouver etc.
Going uphil and making turns (yes, roads in mountains are never straight!) you will need grip on all wheels. For starting moving you need more grip on the active axel (front for FWD and rear for RWD), but for driving, braking, cornering - you need grip on ALL tyres.
It is quite likely you won't need chains if you have proper winter tyres. If I were using winter tyres on FWD car, then I would just buy socks as they use less space (to show or use if gendarms ask for it), but a good winter tyre is good for most winter driving situations and to keep you safe! I drive 4x4 so I do not even have chains, I actually never had it even in my RWD either (but always very good winter tyres) and had no problems in CH, AT or FR - even when staying in the middle of the mountain in Alpbach
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Stop messing about, you need winter tyres on all four wheels and suitable snow chains available for when conditions are difficult. If you really care about safety (we all should) either consider what chains / tyres are available as part of you buying decision when you buy the car if you know you are going to use it in the mountains or hire something more suitable for that journey. All of us have 'got away with it' but every season we have to help guests up or down the hill because they are ill equipped despite all having received warning emails that chains are required.
Personally I would not drive down a steep hill without chains on the front wheels regardless of where the drive comes from, I have seen too many cars off the side of the road (at least 4 this season) all of which could easily have rolled.
When the poo hits the fan it tends to do so quickly. I know I am in the mountains more than most and drive a reasonably torquey front wheel drive car but last year I had chains on for a solid 4 week block and even this season had them on for a good 2 weeks. The road up from the Inn valley has taken its share of prisoners this season and there has been more than one occasion when I have been pleased to be running spiked tyres this year. The biggest problem is not snow but is ice when show has melted and the water has frozen overnight, spikes help with this but not with packed freshly fallen snow.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
I don't think that @tomj, was given anything but the correct advice by those posting on here, it was all saying that he should match the tyres all round in considering a trip to snowy areas for skiing.
The point I made about the ATS guy was this; the tyres two new tyres fitted were bought through an Internet only provider (Black Circles) but the fulfilment of the order is to have them fitted under contract by a real "bricks and mortar " business, in this case ATS, a competitor to black circles, which is partnered to the original supplier. The ATS guy as far as I can see is an action only part of the chain so he just does as directed by the black circles customer.
I was more conscious that he should not receive a bad review based on that transaction as he's just required to fit \ install tyres and put them on the car, that's it.
My VW Touran manual only states for mixed tyres to fit same type on one axle I.e.a matched pair.
I think you've made a very important point about suitability of vehicles @Chris_n, for what are really fairly basic different on road conditions as some of the tyre and wheels specs being delivered to market currently are frankly ludicrous in needing to be adapted to such a degree for poor weather situations.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hi guys,
OK so I'm looking to make a purchase for either Snow Chains or Snow Socks either today/tomorrow ahead of driving down to Meribel early next week.
I'm taking a Toyota Yaris, front wheel drive, and after digesting all the above it looks like snow socks with do the job absolutely fine. Either Snow Socks or these from Michelin Lifestyle: http://gb.michelin-lifestyle.com/en/michelin-easy-grip-snow-chains-1
Any last thoughts? Now that we're in to March I'm predicting there won't be any more huge snow falls, and as I have all day to take my time to climb up in to the resort and similarly at the end of the week also, I'm thinking snow socks would do the job and save me money.
Any last minute thoughts?
Cheers guys,
DK
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@IamDanKeeley, I think chains are like an insurance policy in that you hope never to use/claim but when you do you hope they work/pay up. So personally I would go with the chains, in that, by the time you decide to get out the car and put them on, you have to. You do get snow in March/April and as its warmer it the slushy slippy stuff and maybe next year you will be driving down in December, ??. My thoughts.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
Well said BergenBergen
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
I'm predicting there won't be any more huge snow falls
|
Well, Meteo France are predicting that it will be snowing just about continuously in meribel for the next week and, especially if you have summer tyres on your Toyota, you could well find the road difficult. Personally I'd always go for chains - but then I have an ordinary sort of car which doesn't require the spending of hundreds of pounds for a little pile of ironmongery. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
If I had summer tyres, and it does what's forecast, I'd want chains and I'd expect them to be on the car most of the week.
Mind you, there's a big gap between where you can use summer tyres and where chains actually help, filled only by winter tyres...
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| Quote: |
If I were using winter tyres on FWD car, then I would just buy socks
|
Think this is mistaken - socks improve traction of summer tyres towards winter tyres they do not improve the traction of winter tyres. If you have winters, socks are pointless.
So socks are a reasonable substitute for winters if you only need them from time to time. They are not a substitute for chains (which can be needed even with winters at times). Except in the sense that there is a window where bare winters would be fine but you would need either summer+socks or summer+chains. There will be other situations when only chains will do.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
