@emmaski, really? They were a doddle when I tried, two mins per wheel. I guess it depends how much clearance you though.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Taken from Autosocks' press release in their FAQ linked to above:
Ces equipements de substitution ne peuvent, en aucun cas, remplacer les chaines traditionelles dans des conditions extremes.
Unless my French has suddenly deserted me... That says that Autosocks are not approved for all conditions so it's
not correct to say otherwise.
To the OP I wouldn't take the chance of maybe being allowed to go up the mountain with socks and just remove all doubt. They work very well in most conditions, but...
I wouldn't fancy your chances of waving a bit of paper out of the window in a blizzard at a surly gendarme who has just pointed you back down the mountain.
I've used both and have nearly 40 years experience of driving in the Alps, and have been turned back a few times when discussion, even in French, was just not allowed.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
A lot of people believe it is snow that is the main hurdle. It's ice and hard refrozen snow. It's not just traction to ascend either, it's roadholding and braking performance. Chains bite into the hard snow & ice in a way a fabric layer can't complete. Good snowsocks will give you a similar level of performance to winter tyres but they don't come close to normal chains in icy winter conditions.
And, though I'm repeating myself, whilst I know some cars can't fit chains easily, for most vehicles I just don't see the argument for having snowsocks if a pair of similarly priced (or cheaper) chains do a better job. For ordinary sort of cars, with ordinary sort of sized tyres, it really isn't a difficult, or time-consuming, job to fit chains.
The Autosock website has prominent warnings against cheaper "knock off" snowsocks.
Their website also says if you can't get your forearms between the tyre and the wheel arch you can't fit snowsocks.
And if you CAN get your forearms into that space you can presumably fit chains.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
At the moment, you can get up our driveway with snowtyres or chains, but not snowsocks (yes at least 2 pairs were auto socks.
When the conditions get worse (they will in a few hours) it will be chains or 4wd + snowtyres. If it freezes overnight it might end up being 4wd + chains only.
I live of a 1/6 incline (not very steep) that only gets cleared by a giant excavator and doesn't get much sun, but we are only at 1000m. It's entertaining watching the French tourists who "think" they can drive
Worst so far this weekend - 4wd + snowtyres, but BMW, started sliding, booted it and promptly slid 2 wheels over the side of the drive, the belly of his car was less slippery than his tyres + useless traction control so it saved him from a full Italian Job style ending.
If you are attempting moderate hills on snow covered but well cleared roads, snowsocks are better than plain summer tyres in inexperienced hands but are no match for snow tyres, let alone chains.
Snow socks and winter tyres worked for me today. Lots of road signs saying "special equipment obligatory" but no Gendarmes checking. It wasn't blizzard conditions though.
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Did you have to use the socks, @FIRSTOFTHEGIANTS?
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
I probably could have managed fine without them, but I'm seriously cautious so I thought I'd put them on anyway (and a tight back bottom, so I wanted to use them). Very comfortable, but I can't say whether it was the tyres or the socks, I'd say tyres most probably. Putting them on was a doddle, 5 minutes.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Snow socks and winter tyres worked for me today. Lots of road signs saying "special equipment obligatory" but no Gendarmes checking. It wasn't blizzard conditions though.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
What's the point of putting snow socks on winter tyres when winter tyres perform better?
Snow socks are for people with summer tyres, Shirley?
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Not sure what happened with the double post there.
Erm, you may well be right. The videos and reviews I'd read led me to belief that socks plus winers were better than just winters. But as I said, I'm very cautious, plus I wanted to actually use them. I'm in resort, and happy.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I've used snowsocks and chains. Snowsocks would be better than summer tyres but imho if winter tyres are struggling then chains are better. I wore my snowsocks out after a descent and then motorway journey where there was snow and no snow in fairly short order.
Don't agree about rear wheel drive being a problem. I would prefer a rear wheel drive car to a front wheel drive car as long as it had winter tyres on as it's far more controllable.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Winter tires + chains.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Chains for sure in really extreme conditions, but I find the socks are fine 90% of the time. I have been doing it twenty years and I still hate putting chains on!
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
ski3 wrote:
I've looked at a couple parked near me and they even have more ground clearance than my VW Touran that we use chains on, so no real issues there either.
I think he's got the wrong sort of clearance. I think he's talking about the clearance between the wheel and the car, whereas the issue with an MX5 will be the ground clearance, between the engine sump or the front cross member and the er... ground.
I have an MX5 Mk2 and have been driving it in the alps since 9 years. It has winter tyres and chains in the boot, though I only ever used them once, the day I was caught in snow with summer tyres, which was pretty terrifying until I got the chains on and even then, pretty hairy. I have driven it in all weather, in up to 15cm of unploughed snow. With winter tyres, I have never needed to use my chains, even in deep snow. However, all the roads I drive are never very steep, like a some alpine driveways. They're the usual mountain roads.
Regarding your snowsocks vs chains question, there's no question, in my opinion. If you're going to be driving an MX5 on snow, the wheels are going to be slipping and spinning a lot, because the car is very light so snowsocks would get shredded very fast.
I would not drive an MX5 in winter in the Alps on summer tyres, even in March, unless it was in the middle of a very warm day. If there's no snow, you won't have your chains on, but there's still too much ice around, even in spring, when the snow will melt, water will pour across the road and then re-freeze. Anyway, you're going to need to carry chains. Mine was just too terrifying without winter tyres. Imagine yourself stopped, on a mountain road, on newly fallen snow, fully locked up, with the car slipping slowly sideways just on the camber of the road towards the cliff. It was like that, and that was in April on the road from the Grand St Bernard tunnel.
If there is a significant amount of snow that is either unploughed and heavy or rutted and iced up, you're also going to have issues of ground clearance. You can't get a floor jack under the front cross member on mine and it hasn't been lowered or tinkered with. The time I drove in 10cm of unploughed snow it was coming over the bonnet as I drove, but the snow was very light powder and I only had 300m to go to get to my garage.
A lot also depends on whether yours has limited-slip differential (LSD) which provides a lot of extra traction up hills. Some early MX5s don't.
In summary, a lot depends on the weather at that time. With winter tyres and LSD, you'll be fine unless there is unploughed or deeply rutted hard snow/ice. An MX5 is very tail happy, will spin very quickly and the versions pre Mk3 have no roll bar or support from the windscreen, so if it rolls into a ditch, it's over for you. I wouldn't drive an MX5 on summer tyres in the Alps in winter unless it was scorchio, late in the season, in the middle of the day, with no recent snow on the roads.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
IamDanKeeley wrote:
Hi guys,
So I posted a separate thread on driving to Meribel in March, but I wanted to focus in on anyone's feedback about whether Snow Socks will do the job (with summer/normal UK tyres) when approaching the windier roads up in to Meribel?
Has anyone had any experience of using Snow Socks rather than Snow Chains and if so how were they? How did they perform? Did they do the job? How were the conditions when you had to use them? Did you have to keep taking them off? Were they easy to fit etc.?
All feedback welcome!
Thanks guys
I have used Snow Socks on a FWD VW with winter tyres during the original "Snowmageddon" of Dec 27th 2014 between the Cluses peage and Flaine , c 20-30 Kms and 1700m of altitude, peak 1900m.
I was stopped by a Gendarme roadblock at the base of the hill and the officer was satisfied with the Snow Socks.
Observations. I had driven that morning in snow and slush from around Saleve on the Geneva ring road and I doubt that I would have got up the incline from Annemasse without winter tyres on. I saw another car that had spun into the central reservation coming from the other direction. The Autoroute was effectively closing down to on lane at this point. If I had summers on then I would have had a further 25km or so to do on the socks and that would have been much more difficult - I wouldn't conclude therefore that the valley roads will necessarily be snow free all year round. Obviously you are more likely to be "lucky" in spring.
The socks performed fine during the 45 minute climb to the resort (always a smirk going around an Evoque and a Disco stopped struggling with chains higher up) - controlled steady pace around 30 mph is the answer. I might have been able to take them off for a short (3-5km) stretch but it wasn't really worth it. (the Winters cope fine with packed snow and ice other than steeper inclines and freeze/thaw slush).
I use them primarily because they are very very easy to fit. I dont fit chains as a matter of course so I can't give you the relative stopwatch times. Mine take 3-5 minutes with most of the time spent looking for the gloves, mat to kneel on etc. Caveat ; I also carry chains in the alps as back up but haven't ever had to use them.
Hope that helps!
(PS - in your case - I wouldn't go summers and Socks, I might go winters and Socks but with chains as back up)
I've never had to use them in anger but liked the fact that they're more chain-like than socks and are (according to the website) "Homologated for European alpine use, TUV/ONORM approved"
We have and in their very first use they quickly ripped open BOTH brake circuits. We survived without further damage but it was pretty hairy trying to stop going downhill, on snow, with the handbrake alone.
There is no adjustment in them. Make sure they are exactly the right size and fit snugly.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
What is supposed to be the advantage of the Michelin Easy Grips? Just ease of mounting?
After all it is free
After all it is free
Quote:
What is supposed to be the advantage of the Michelin Easy Grips? Just ease of mounting?
I think its a combination of ease of fitting and better grip than socks offer but as I haven't used socks or the Easy Grips in anger I can't comment from experience.
Quote:
We have and in their very first use they quickly ripped open BOTH brake circuits
Good Grief - The ones Iv'e got are the right size and quite a snug fit. There doesn't seem to be any clearance issues so hope they'd be OK if needed to be used
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@snoozeboy, I did mean the clearance under the lowest point of the car, our VW is really quite low, just that the MX5 looks like it has more clearance. As you say with the MX5 though, I have to drive my VW onto wood planks to get a floor jack under it and you have to be really careful on any uneven ground not to scrape the crossmember just behind the engine that supports the undertray.
Agree about carrying chains though as if your car is ok to use them then I've never had a problem getting them on and off and I've just never had it stuck going up or down when they're required.
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
Quote:
I have to drive my VW onto wood planks to get a floor jack under it
Golly. How do you manage if you have to change a wheel by the roadside?
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@pam w, the car has its own fairly flimsy jack to use out on the road that is low enough to get under the edge of the car, but the irony is that it was supplied by VW as a seven seater with no provision for carrying a spare wheel of any type!! So you're completely stuffed really anyway.
At home I use one of those garage floor jacks on wheels (trolley jack) for general maintenance, so that's the one requiring contingency.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@ski3, apologies, I stand corrected that you meant ground clearance. Incredible that a seven seater VW has the same ground clearance as a two-seater roadster, albeit of the hairdressing variety.
Like you, I have to drive my MX5 up on planks too to get the trolley jack underneath to flip the tyres each season and for general maintenance, and yes it has a flimsy side jack for punctures.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@ski3, ah yes, I remember now why I rejected the Touran - no spare. I paid a little extra for a full size spare which I can carry in a cage under my Zafira. The supplied jack is indeed pathetic, but I was able to use it to change the wheel, up a mountain in France, a week or so ago. The jacking was the most difficult part of the exercise, although thank goodness I was on a firm surface. I have been wondering about getting a better jack, but it'll probably be a long time before I have another puncture!
I've never had to use them in anger but liked the fact that they're more chain-like than socks and are (according to the website) "Homologated for European alpine use, TUV/ONORM approved"
I also have the Michelins and did use them in anger on the road up to Flaine on 13th Feb. They were a bit of a blighter to get on initially, but after the first fitting they stretched and it was much easier. After a first failed attempt to fit them, which involved almost straining my wrist tendons and also ripping the flimsy polythene gauntlet things provided, I had another go with the following preparations:
- removed wristwatch to give better reach under wheel arch
- wore some marigolds on top of my woollen liner gloves
- heated the "chains" a bit with a hairdryer
- made sure I had good light (take head torch in case of night time fitting)
They went on fine after that. The key is to get the elastic gaiter thing flattened out and around as much of the far side of the tyre as possible then they will more or less centre themselves (but still worth a couple of checks and adjustments). Fortunately I went through that bit of pain at home and fitting them on the mountain was no bother.
Performance-wise they were pretty good. I have winter tyres which were coping well enough in the fresh snow, but the roads in and immediately before the resort were compacted and glassy and I was glad of the chains there, they didn't let me down, while all around Frenchmen were slithering their small Peugeots into the nearby parked cars. They also seem to be pretty hard-wearing - I span the wheels a bit getting up a steepish, icy, car park exit immediately after fitting them and I also drove a few miles on only slightly slushy road during departure and there was no discernable damage.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
quick question on chains, do you need them for all wheels or just the front ones on fwd ?
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
just the fronts
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
thanks
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
At a risk of extending this thread to far, what is people's experience of winter rated tyres on the front (driving) wheels and summers on the rear?
I've just put some Michelin CrossClimate tyres (with the mountain/snowflake symbol) on the front of our family bus, to replace Primacy 3 Summer tyres which were due to be changed. The rears have the same tyres, loads of tread on them (and if I don't have to spend another couple of hundred quid this month that would be great). I am sure that the best practice would be to have winter tyres front and rear, but just for the moment it's a mixture.
I don't have a huge amount of experience of driving in snow, mainly on flattish roads in the inch or two of occasional snow in southern England. My guess is that the driving and turning wheels are where grip is needed most? But what about grip at the back end?
@tomj, not much experience arround as those who do it must either be in hospital/grave or prison ... Honestly, one of the most stupid thing you could do. Mixted tyres = uneven grip ... Imagine situation when you are driving and press on breaks. If the road is slipery, then the back of the car will try to overtake the front ... Those coming your way at best would have brown trousers alert (if lucky), otherwise just a quick prayer and a trip to hospital. PLEASE, never drive a car on slipery roads in such combo!
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Quote:
what is people's experience of winter rated tyres on the front (driving) wheels and summers on the rear?
my experience is a 180 degree skid on a gentle bend taken very cautiously. I had winter tyres just on the front on the advice of a tyre salesman in France (from whom I'd happily have bought 4 tyres, if he'd recommended them).
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@tomj, it's very difficult \ unwise based on your own appraisal of knowledge and skill to advise you to do anything other than fit the same tyres to the rear wheels as well.
You are right that you need grip, traction etc for the front driven wheels but the rears play an equally important role in giving the vehicle a very vital stability particularly during braking and cornering or both together. When ultimate grip levels go down this balance is ever more critical to safe driving.
It may be helpful if you get new rears ad well to so this in future. I run them on our family car to about 10,000miles and then switch fronts and rears as they then get to the lowest tread depth all at the same time so if you switch type you don't have to waste them.
A friend has just put those michelin cross climate tyres onto his car and driven up from Spain to Sweden, reports they are really good so far.
Have you tried someone like Blackcircles for a tyre quote? they offer decent price and service.
After all it is free
After all it is free
@ski3, yes I use Blackcircles checked against other sites they usually come out well on price.
I'm less impressed with the ATS fitter who didn't proffer any advice regarding the danger of mixing tyres.
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pam w wrote:
Quote:
what is people's experience of winter rated tyres on the front (driving) wheels and summers on the rear?
my experience is a 180 degree skid on a gentle bend taken very cautiously. I had winter tyres just on the front on the advice of a tyre salesman in France (from whom I'd happily have bought 4 tyres, if he'd recommended them).
He was wrong.
Exactly that. A slow speed 180 deg spin as the rear overtook the front, and I managed to hit the same ice wall with both the front and rear bumper. The insurace assessor clearly didn't believe me, thinking I was trying to get all the minor dings on both bumpers fixed on one claim.
Before driving away from the tyre fitter, I'd asked him the same question as the OP, and he assured me it was fine
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
@tomj, unusually the ATS guy is not necessarily wrong.
Basically nearly all road cars are refined during design and testing to err into gentle understeer when pushed too fast into a corner, meaning that it's desirable to have ultimately less grip at the front than rear as the driver at the point of panic when realising they've overcooked the speed of approach naturally takes their foot off the throttle. It's at this point that having more rear grip comes into play to hold the car as far as possible in a transitional state that sorts itself out safely inspite of any driver input.
In your tyre fitment, the primancys should have a slightly higher ultimate grip advantage in general (non winter) use than the crossclimates, so he is on balance a higher percentage correct in this instance.
The conundrum comes if they are used in snow or very low grip situations, then the crossclimates performance eclipses that of the primancys.
Which would prompt different advice.
You can get even more difference front to rear when using chains, so it's not difficult to see scenarios in which you'd have to drive with great care.
All of these probably don't have as much influence as driver attitude when driving in adverse grip situations though.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
Good Grief - The ones Iv'e got are the right size and quite a snug fit. There doesn't seem to be any clearance issues so hope they'd be OK if needed to be used
