 Poster: A snowHead
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| sparklies wrote: |
| We were in Tignes last week and some teenage borders in the chalet were talking about how they were planning on going off-piste and down closed runs and couldn't see the problem. I showed them the various posts on here about what happened and they looked suitably sobered. I think they had it in their minds that you only get caught in an avalanche if you're miles from anywhere. |
Well done sparklies on educating them.  You may just have saved them from injury or worse...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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It's Wednesday afternoon- loads of PE and other teachers take the kids skiing. They're not qualified.
I am so angry. From the reports they were on a closed piste at Avalanche risk 4. You don't do that.
You don't take children in your care anywhere near it.
Even if they didn't trigger it and the Ukranian guy did, they shouldn't have been on that slope. This was all avoidable. It didn't have to happen.
Those children won't ever be going home because some absolute idiot thought they knew better.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Bellecombe is a difficult black at the best of times. Many I times I have been in the chair lift that goes over it and seen skiers and boarders struggle. The closed pistes in LDA are very obvious but people seem to know better. I saw many people last year go down Diable when it was shut, later that week a man died doing just that. He lost control and hit some rocks at the bottom. Terrible tragedy and my thought area with everyone.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Weathercam wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| ......I'm sure some of the "powder fever" that I saw all afternoon in Les Arcs was replicated across other resorts.... |
Trouble is it's so easy to get caught up in the "fever" and I'm sure many of us have been guilty of that when maybe we were less aware of the dangers, or were young and invincible.
If one particular chair had been open today, and not closed due to technical issues, there would have been powder hounds a plenty, many with no idea or gear, or all the gear and no idea.
I wouldn't be surprised if there are immediate decisions with a view to closing lifts that enable people to venture into dangerous terrain, but where do you draw the line? |
Yes, it's difficult to find the right balance. Getting trained, a little, in off-piste management reminded me how dumb I'd been before I knew anything. Now I'm mostly aware of how little I know, so my margins of safety are significantly larger the the used to be. But there is always pressure to ski a line while it's fresh, so trying to avoid the temptation is key. I was on a line this afternoon that began to worry me, so I traversed out to shallower terrain. Ten minutes later there are three guys skiing it, possibly following the tracks I left to the top the pitch. What can you do...?
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Super sad news. My thoughts to all involved and the families.
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| shefmarkh wrote: |
| One thing I noticed is they don't always put the large piste ferme notice up. Just some yellow and black piste poles. Maybe people don't know what those mean. One blue run that looked closed just had blue piste markers across its entrance. We decided being unsure not to risk it. I can imagine others just assume it's fine though. |
I ended up accidentally on a closed piste over Christmas because it wasn't clear at all. I followed some people down but it became clear halfway that there was poor snow cover so I ended up on rocks and grass. Caught a lift back to the top of the run and saw that there was a small sign saying closed, but it wasn't obvious as you approached the piste as you got off the lift.
Easy to speculate on whether they were hunting powder or just plain lost, but as others have said it doesn't change the outcome  A tragic reminder to take care on the mountain.
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Horrible news. Thoughts to all concerned. Should wait til all facts come out before the blame game starts.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@shoogly, +1
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I've been taken down runs closed due to avalanche risk on several occasions by a guide. Each time we've been shown where the avalanche danger lies, where safe passage can be found, or, sometimes, an off-piste route that avoids the danger.
Every time, we've seen other skiers follow in our tracks. They've have no guide, no gear, no idea. They hurtle straight through he avalanche risk, mindless of the danger they place themselves in.
I wonder if something similar happened here. First tracks get laid by someone who understands the risks. Others follow naively, then...
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This is so sad... and so many getting swept away as well...
very sobering indeed.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| rjb wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
Skiing on a closed piste at Avy 4  |
+1 Shocking!
I'm out in Val Thorens at the minute and the 3V links have been closed for 3 days now, warnings everywhere at base of lifts and arrival stations
I've still seen plenty of people ignoring warnings, and I don't mean just dropping off the side of a piste either |
The world is off piste and on closed pistes in Val T currently, hundreds if not thousands of people... They won't open anything high or any links because they can't trust people not to go off. We struggled on a drag which they had to open (because of an error on the VT Les Menures link) half of it was pisted, the other bit on a very steep pitch had knee high powder..... 5 people at least came off and had to track down a steep pitch with 1m+ of fresh snow purely beacuse the down link was opened incorrectly and they couldn't open anything high apart from a half arsed effort to get a low drag open.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Wed 13-01-16 20:49; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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It's probably a fairly dumb question but what's the risk when skiing on an open piste? I've always assumed on piste = safe and closed is for a reason.
Love to those who are affected by this tragedy.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@andybomb1, depends who / what is above you, a slide hit a piste in Soelden last Jan. 2 in the slide died, no one hit on piste bug it crossed it (just)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I was in Deux Alpes today.
Having dumped it down for the last 48hrs the sun came out and there were fresh lines to be had everywhere. Conditions were perfect.
I went up the Bellecombe chair a couple of times throughout the day and despite being closed was well skied.
From the location of the Avalanche debris I can't understand how or why you would end up there if you weren't skiing the closed run.
Looking at photos it appears the slide was quite long which terminated off the run itself.
Truly horrible and is a hard wake up call to heed ski patrol advice (high Avalanche risk, closed run, etc.) despite locality to lifts and how good it looks.
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So on piste is safe on piste 99.9% of the time but we know it's a mountain and bad things happen?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Skiing itself is an inherently risky activity but you'd be unlikely to get avalanched on an open piste because part of securing the pistes is considering where a slide would go, releasing it if possible or closing the piste if not. You'd have to be exceptionally unlucky.
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| cammyammy wrote: |
| Truly horrible and is a hard wake up call to heed ski patrol advice (high Avalanche risk, closed run, etc.) despite locality to lifts and how good it looks. |
Or if there are already tracks on it.
As I'm very much at the beginner end of the skiing (not ventured any more than 50 feet off the side of a piste) it's a bit of a warning. However I can fully understand why people go around the 'closed' sign to find fresh powder. I hope that when I'm good enough to ski that kind of thing that I remember incidents like this and don't just charge down the slope.
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Terrible news . . .
@cammyammy, looking at the piste map that black exits onto a green run . . .did the slide make it that far . . ?
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From what you can see on the photos the slide does not go onto or near the runs that go along the valley, it released from the side of the face above the Bellecombes black run ( which is in a gully/couloir) and cut across it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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BBC news reporting all members of the group have now been accounted for. If correct then a small relief that the toll was not higher, and fingers crossed that the injured make a full recovery.
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| belette wrote: |
| Skiing itself is an inherently risky activity but you'd be unlikely to get avalanched on an open piste because part of securing the pistes is considering where a slide would go, releasing it if possible or closing the piste if not. You'd have to be exceptionally unlucky. |
I agree that you would have to be exceptionally unlucky, but unfortunately it does happen, albeit very, very occasionally.
There was an on-piste avalanche fatality in Les Arcs a couple of years ago, I know that it has also happened in Val Thorens, and possibly in Solden. Today there are reports of 3 people skiing on piste in Avdriaz who were caught, fortunately no injuries.
But having said that, there are significantly greater dangers on piste from other things (crashing in to people in your group, strangers crashing in to you, skiing drunk and being stupid, innocuous falls, etc, etc).
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Very sad news indeed. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Thank you Rob & Belette
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| Jonny Jones wrote: |
| I've been taken down runs closed due to avalanche risk on several occasions by a guide. Each time we've been shown where ... safe passage can be found... Others follow naively, then... |
I realise this isn't directly relevant to this incident, and that your text needs to be read in context. But I'd say that's very unprofessional in a guide:
- they should teach their clients to respect the rules
- they could easily kick something down onto less "experienced" people who are in the wrong place
- they are encouraging those other people to follow them
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On this one, well I guess I'm not "devastated" that breaking safety rules has consequences.
5 people will have also died on the UK roads today, but that won't stop many people breaking the speed limits.
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You know it makes sense.
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How awful
I don't know enough about avi conditions personally (which is why I only ski off piste with an expert and actually as a result haven't taken the time to educate myself… that's going to change and fast) so don't feel in a position to judge until more information becomes clear.
| Nadenoodlee wrote: |
| It's Wednesday afternoon- loads of PE and other teachers take the kids skiing. They're not qualified. |
I guess you're in a much, much bigger area than us and so things will be different - here, Wednesday afternoon PE lesson is always with a local qualified person. Always. The non qualified teachers ski with kids but the terrain and activity is always set by someone qualified.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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We hear about the avalanches that take people's lives throughout the season. For some reason I feel this incident may be different and may change things, be it the culture or in laws .
I'm unsure why. Maybe it's because it's not so much off piste as a closed piste - or because it was children being led by another person.
A terribly sad day. We shouldn't be carrying children off mountains. We have to learn.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| philwig wrote: |
| Jonny Jones wrote: |
| I've been taken down runs closed due to avalanche risk on several occasions by a guide. Each time we've been shown where ... safe passage can be found... Others follow naively, then... |
I realise this isn't directly relevant to this incident, and that your text needs to be read in context. But I'd say that's very unprofessional in a guide:
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That was my thinking as well when i read it.
| philwig wrote: |
On this one, well I guess I'm not "devastated" that breaking safety rules has consequences.
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I'm not sure what you mean by this though. No-one deserves to die, particularly children. I assume I'm taking you up worng.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Wed 13-01-16 22:20; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| miranda wrote: |
How awful
I don't know enough about avi conditions personally (which is why I only ski off piste with an expert and actually as a result haven't taken the time to educate myself… that's going to change and fast) so don't feel in a position to judge until more information becomes clear.
| Nadenoodlee wrote: |
| It's Wednesday afternoon- loads of PE and other teachers take the kids skiing. They're not qualified. |
I guess you're in a much, much bigger area than us and so things will be different - here, Wednesday afternoon PE lesson is always with a local qualified person. Always. The non qualified teachers ski with kids but the terrain and activity is always set by someone qualified. |
Around here teachers do the FFS formation (which I believe is a one week course for the first level). This allows them to lead a class of children, but is totally limited to on-piste activities. One other point worth making is that lots of people skied that piste today. Back in the day when I was still climbing, there was a reason for an 'alpine start'. Risk is minimised in the morning when everything is frozen solid. To be on a slope like that in the late afternoon...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'm going to stop you there
| philwig wrote: |
5 people will have also died on the UK roads today, but that won't stop many people breaking the speed limits. |
Because exceeding a limit is not the root cause of most road accidents, only about 5% of road accidents are, inattention is the biggest factor by a factor of about 10.
Still this was an obvious risk which they took, many of us do & have done I'm sure in the past & many will do in the future.
However a very avi high risk was clearly advised, I don't think the pistuers will be to blame by any means.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| cameronphillips2000 wrote: |
We hear about the avalanches that take people's lives throughout the season. For some reason I feel this incident may be different and may change things, be it the culture or in laws .
I'm unsure why. Maybe it's because it's not so much off piste as a closed piste - or because it was children being led by another person.
A terribly sad day. We shouldn't be carrying children off mountains. We have to learn. |
Reminds me of the Cairngorm disaster in 1971. That had a big effect on outdoor pursuits in the UK.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| belette wrote: |
| Skiing itself is an inherently risky activity but you'd be unlikely to get avalanched on an open piste because part of securing the pistes is considering where a slide would go, releasing it if possible or closing the piste if not. You'd have to be exceptionally unlucky. |
I agree that you would have to be exceptionally unlucky, but unfortunately it does happen, albeit very, very occasionally.
There was an on-piste avalanche fatality in Les Arcs a couple of years ago, I know that it has also happened in Val Thorens, and possibly in Solden. Today there are reports of 3 people skiing on piste in Avdriaz who were caught, fortunately no injuries.
But having said that, there are significantly greater dangers on piste from other things (crashing in to people in your group, strangers crashing in to you, skiing drunk and being stupid, innocuous falls, etc, etc). |
I think there was a fatality on piste in Ischgl over last few years also? I think the point is you rely on the pisteurs to manage the ski area so its safe and hopefully (and obviously in the vast majority of cases) they do their job very well. Must be big pressure on resorts to open lifts and runs, particularly when there might be refunds if they don't. Always respect when they make a very unpopular decision.
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| Nadenoodlee wrote: |
| It's Wednesday afternoon- loads of PE and other teachers take the kids skiing. They're not qualified. |
I guess you're in a much, much bigger area than us and so things will be different - here, Wednesday afternoon PE lesson is always with a local qualified person. Always. The non qualified teachers ski with kids but the terrain and activity is always set by someone qualified.[/quote]
Around here teachers do the FFS formation (which I believe is a one week course for the first level). This allows them to lead a class of children, but is totally limited to on-piste activities...[/quote]
I am so surprised at this, it seems at such odds to the whole battle against ski hosting and the need to pass the ET etc.
If any group of skiers should ski with a properly qualified instructor, surely it should be children!
Such a very sad day.
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Simply terrible. Latest French reports suggesting 3 dead, the piste was closed but plenty of tracks from previous users today. Health and safety obsessed Britain much maligned, often quite rightly, but French school teachers have very different duty of care and approach to the British. Thoughts and prayers with the families.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Belch, that's such a sad photo. Body recovery going on in to the night
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| JamesHJ wrote: |
Around here teachers do the FFS formation (which I believe is a one week course for the first level). This allows them to lead a class of children, but is totally limited to on-piste activities. |
Where is "around here" James?
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