 Poster: A snowHead
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, Forgive me, I have little time to get my teeth into this, but from my limited perspective, I'd say that for the majority of skiers the equipment is better than their skills and that a skilled skier will be able to overcome a ski's limitation and still enjoy the piste (competition excluded). So a lot of the argument is moot.
The concept of 'high-end/expert' defines that they are able to take any equipment and use it to its best. There is enormous ambiguity in both the equipment and the delineation of the user.
This is posted by someone who is described as a danger on the piste so you have to take that into account.
A lot of what I'm seeing in this thread is 'bog wall marking' to no-one's benefit.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Masque, i must be a little tired, think we are agreeing here but can't be sure.
Imagine you had never skied, put you on a world-cup ski until you can ski. I don't think it would slow down your progress, until someone came over to say hey those aren't the right skis for you, then you start to attribute your learning curve to your equipment. I prefer to sell skis as if this were the case. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
| Imagine you had never skied, put you on a world-cup ski until you can ski. I don't think it would slow down your progress. |
That's an interesting theory.
So, you are saying that someone could learn as quickly on WC skis as they could on something softer and more forgiving?
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Thats fairly Philisophical, but for me, yes. I'm suggesting all other skis other than W/C skis don't exsist to test this point correctly. If there was just one type of ski for everyone. This is how i learned to ski and without sounding bigheaded, it didn't take me long to learn.
I'm suggesting that if people weren't aware of softer skis, they may just get on and learn. As we have nothing but our own perspective how are we to say if it is the ski holding up our progression, or just our minds?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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But since other skis do exist, do you believe that a skier only allowed to ski on WC skis would get to a reasonably advanced level of skiing as quickly as someone who could use softer and shorter skis to star off with, and change up skis as their ability improved?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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As myself as an example, i could say yes, however speed was/is my motive for skiing. As a rule sure, shorter lighter and softer skis will punish less, your mistakes, however i like to be punished, i learn more quickly. I can only give you my opinion, to many i'm sure, a blinkered one. I have put newbee skiers, this year, on Dynastar Ski-x 11's with no adverse problems and in some cases improved their skiing, however again we are unable to say what may have happened, good or bad had they skied something more forgiving.
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I come from a time in skiing when you either skied a slalom ski or a gs ski, and with that you skied in them in bumps, pow, ice or whatever the conditions were. Models used to change just about every season, and it was a relatively easy process to buy a new pair of skis, but now it seems as if marketing/PR people are trying to wring every last cent out of skiers . Do boarders get so many constant changes to their gear ???? I haven't noticed it if they do, Head for example were sprouting off about Itelligent fibres acouple of seasons ago, now it's liquid metal (both products are yet to be fully proven as working). We are being fed crap by these marketing types pure and simple.
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I think SZK's theory about the ability to learn just fine or better on high end equipment makes a lot of sense. It will hold for a large amount of people. However there will be a group of people where the more direct feedback will cause these people to be too scared to learn easily, only for these people more forgiving equipment is a true benefit.
PS:
These ideas are based on my experience with rowing, another highly technical sport, I own my own Worldchampionship worthy boat.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I got on some B2's (a softish advanced ski) on my 5th day of skiing and they were a revelation to me. As a lighter weight bloke I found them fantastic. But other learners had a more cautious approach, they seemed to prefer the beginner skis (as Ronald said). I prefer in most sports to get on decent kit asap.
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Interesting, so start everyone in WC skis, forget about anything else (such as fat skis).
Is it the same with boots - that everyone should start in race (plug) boots?
Personally, I believe it is better to teach people to walk before you teach them to run. If you only teach them to run, they lack the control to walk properly.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Scarpa,
Big difference between a B2 and a WC ski!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Wear The Fox Hat, but I like them long! Actually, I didn't know that. The slightly out of date FIS documentI read wasn't that clear. Maybe it'll be 180s then!
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Wear The Fox Hat, I am with you.
I can't recall learning to ski, although that experience backs up SZKs argument, in that I learned on whatever was put on my feet, from 110cm Fischer Blue Masters in 1971 to 203 Dynastar Course SLs in 1985. (Learning curve changed around then, and ski technology was about to step change). I didn't once think I needed different skis and it doesn't seem to have done me any harm (you are entitled to differ).
However! Things have moved on. I think you could teach someone from scratch on a pair of 185 (or 180?) WC GS skis, but why would they or you want to do that? There's kit out there that will make the whole process more efficient, effective and economically rational. (Assuming good instruction in both cases).
Likewise boots. My first pair (discounting the welly boots I used first time out) had two sets of laces and had to be dubbined after a weeks holiday. One could start out in a pair of plugs, but why?
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You know it makes sense.
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| David Murdoch wrote: |
| Wear The Fox Hat, but I like them long! Actually, I didn't know that. The slightly out of date FIS documentI read wasn't that clear. Maybe it'll be 180s then! |
The one I was looking at said that 180 was the FIS standard regulation, 185 is only for WC. Here's the 2004/05 sheets. which I think are worded badly, as it states 185cm - 5cm!
From the FIS
...and here is the 05/06 sheets from the USSA.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| David Murdoch wrote: |
However! Things have moved on. I think you could teach someone from scratch on a pair of 185 (or 180?) WC GS skis, but why would they or you want to do that? There's kit out there that will make the whole process more efficient, effective and economically rational. (Assuming good instruction in both cases).
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I'm thinking, what would the instructor say if on your first day on snow, you turned up with full WC GS skis.
If the instructor was any good, once he'd stopped laughing at you, he'd probably suggest you change your skis.
There is good reason why even professional skiers don't ski on full WC skis all the time, and why instructors tend to teach on shorter, softer skis.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Wear The Fox Hat, There is a major difference between Quality gear, crap gear and Uncompromised WC gear. I'm fairly sure SZK did not mean to teach on WC gear, but Quality gear. It sure is what I meant.
Just like I do not row the stiffest oars out there (likely the exact same reason WC racers don't full time the WC skis), but I do use high quality oars all the time.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Ronald, I totally agree about people learning better on quailty gear than the cheap 5 year old rentals some shops like to push on them, but there is a big difference between quality gear and
| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
| ...put you on a world-cup ski until you can ski. I don't think it would slow down your progress... |
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
Interesting, so start everyone in WC skis, forget about anything else (such as fat skis).
Is it the same with boots - that everyone should start in race (plug) boots?
Personally, I believe it is better to teach people to walk before you teach them to run. If you only teach them to run, they lack the control to walk properly. |
Foxy, calm down, this was a Philisophical descussion, can't see why we have gone back to fat skis again, are you familiar with the Dynastar Pro Rider and Rossingnol B4 squad, these are world cup construction skis.
If i had three weeks with each of my clients, yes i would put everybody in a Plug Shell and an injection liner. At times they would difficult to put on and take off, but i'm sure everyone would have more control.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Sun 15-01-06 15:17; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
Interesting, so start everyone in WC skis, forget about anything else (such as fat skis).
Is it the same with boots - that everyone should start in race (plug) boots?
Personally, I believe it is better to teach people to walk before you teach them to run. If you only teach them to run, they lack the control to walk properly. |
Foxy, calm down, this was a Philisophical descussion, can see why we have gone back to fat skis, are you familiar with the Dynastar Pro Rider and Rossingnol B4 squad, these are world cup construction skis.
If i had three weeks with each of my clients, yes i would put everybody in a Plug Shell and an injection liner. At times they would difficult to put on and take off, but i'm sure everyone would have more control. |
If you can run well, where are you going to walk?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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beanie1, Yup - totally agree. Much better suited to learning than a WC from my point of view. A learning ski needs to forgive mistakes a little.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
| If you can run well, where are you going to walk? |
When you are not in a rush, or when there are others around you, and it is safer for them if you walk, and also because running isn't the be all and end all, and by running you can miss a lot of what's going on around you.
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snowskisnow,
I thought a ski holiday was meant to be fun!
Though saying that, if you put off newbies that means quieter slopes for the rest of us
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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David Goldsmith, Mmmmm - some very nice artwork on some of those. But I'd best a) Save some money, and b) Learn to ski on last years skis first 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Dynastar skis and Lange boots for 2006-7 have been unveiled. There are notable changes to ski construction and the integral bindings system.
This report from FirstTracksOnline.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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David Goldsmith, You like the graphics, alot of work has been put in for the British Market.
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David Goldsmith, So what that's saying is Dynastar is making Metron B5s in the USA with idiot proof binding systems . . . sounds about right 
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