 Poster: A snowHead
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@ajc2260626, Jean-Yves Lapeyrère, lawyer, mayor of the resort of Mijoux, fully qualified ski instructor and head of the trade group European Confederation of Outdoor Employers.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sat 15-08-15 21:56; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@laundryman, cheers so I think that we can safely say he should know his sh*t..... 
Oh deary me....... I think an email to basi might be the order of the day on Monday lol
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Gerry wrote: |
| Steilhang wrote: |
| Teacher wrote: |
So can anybody answer me this then please,
Andrew Lockerbie CEO of BASI Does not have his Eurotest but has his Carte Pro & MOU stamp.
Don Bates Does not have his Eurotest but has his Carte Pro & MOU stamp. and sits on the BASI Board.
Both these individuals have their full ISTD and sit both work in Megève, France and both have something to gain by putting Simon Butler out of business.
So my question is this,
SIMON BUTLER PASSED his ISTD before these two individuals, way way before, so why can't he have his MOU like everyone else? |
This was exactly the question I was asking. What exactly is this MoU and how come some of the other old guys, with all the qualifications, get it and others selectively don't? Who makes these decisions and on what basis? Also, by what right does BASI think it can dictate to the Italians whether or not it can issue an MoU to someone who has the appropriate qualifications? |
Crock of sh*te ain't it? |
When the eurotest was introduced circa 2002 all existing top level BASI instructors were able to apply for exemption as part of the deal.
There are many older french and UK instructors who never sat a euro test.
Why simon butler never applied back then seems odd.
My guess is that under the agreement struck with french he wouldnt have been able to continue employing other lower level instructors ?
So he rebelled by refusing to sign up, thus I am told subsequently missing the cut off date in 2005.
I have sympathy for SB, and respect for his belief.
..... but outsiders should remember he has a clear political agenda.
As in any argument there are 2 sides to every story.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| Gerry wrote: |
| Steilhang wrote: |
| Teacher wrote: |
So can anybody answer me this then please,
Andrew Lockerbie CEO of BASI Does not have his Eurotest but has his Carte Pro & MOU stamp.
Don Bates Does not have his Eurotest but has his Carte Pro & MOU stamp. and sits on the BASI Board.
Both these individuals have their full ISTD and sit both work in Megève, France and both have something to gain by putting Simon Butler out of business.
So my question is this,
SIMON BUTLER PASSED his ISTD before these two individuals, way way before, so why can't he have his MOU like everyone else? |
This was exactly the question I was asking. What exactly is this MoU and how come some of the other old guys, with all the qualifications, get it and others selectively don't? Who makes these decisions and on what basis? Also, by what right does BASI think it can dictate to the Italians whether or not it can issue an MoU to someone who has the appropriate qualifications? |
Crock of sh*te ain't it? |
When the eurotest was introduced circa 2002 all existing top level BASI instructors were able to apply for exemption as part of the deal.
There are many older french and UK instructors who never sat a euro test.
Why simon butler never applied back then seems odd.
My guess is that under the agreement struck with french he wouldnt have been able to continue employing other lower level instructors ?
So he rebelled by refusing to sign up, thus I am told subsequently missing the cut off date in 2005.
I have sympathy for SB, and respect for his belief.
..... but outsiders should remember he has a clear political agenda.
As in any argument there are 2 sides to every story. |
Politics? You're in the wrong thread, sunshine. Outsiders? We pay, we call the tune. 
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Sat 26-09-15 15:54; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Thanks for the unnecessary abuse cOck sucker.
Last time I try and make a genuine contribution to this thread.
If you think Simon Butler is the victim and BASI are the evil empire then you have got your head in the sand.
In reality both sides partly to blame for current situation.
It takes two to tango.
As I said in the second post only real winners will be the lawyers.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| Why simon butler never applied back then seems odd. |
That's an assumption (which I believe is wrong).
The MoU had not been invented way back: the ISTD had, and SB got one (via grandfather rights), which he still has. Then, much later, when the MoU was invented, SB got one of those too, along with other people with exactly the same qualifications, including BASI CEO Andrew Lockerbie and BASI director Don Bates (coincidentally, Megève/St Gervais competitors of SB). Now BASI has decided it gave SB's MoU in error (but not AL's or DB's).
The Court of Session in Edinburgh will have its say on these dealings in the autumn.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Sat 15-08-15 22:13; edited 2 times in total
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@Haggis_Trap, there are indeed always two sides to any story but there will always be only one legal version and that is the one that we all want to see come out...... Regardless of who ever it favours.......
But according to the chap in the video it would appear that SB and his crew are correct and BASI and the ESF guys have being pulling the wool (at best) by peddling a myth to suit their own means
Not sure what you mean for his own political agenda? I would have thought it was more a simple business decision..... ie he had a business model that utilised instructors that weren't euro test / lvl 4 basi etc; this business ran successfully until he was prosecuted for breaking a law when in fact it would appear that he wasn't breaking any law, this threatened his business so he took them to the European Commission?
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@Haggis_Trap, whoa man i don't think anyine was having a pop mate.....
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@laundryman, when is that hearing by the way? Any idea?
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@ajc2260626, October 1st/2nd.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| Why simon butler never applied back then seems odd. |
That's an assumption (which I believe is wrong).
The MoU had not been invented way back: the ITSD had, and SB got one (via grandfather rights), which he still has. Then, when the MoU was invented, SB got one of those too, along with other people with exactly the same qualifications, including BASI CEO Andrew Lockerbie and BASI director Don Bates (coincidentally, Megève/St Gervais competitors of SB). Now BASI has decided it gave SB's MoU in error (but not AL's or DB's).
The Court of Session in Edinburgh will have its say on these dealings in the autumn. |
There was a cut off date for the so called grandfsther rights.
Other BASI memebers who missed it, for what ever reason, subsequently had to do euro test.
As for the MOU, i am not sure.
Though it does seem BASI either made a mistake or deliberatly with held.
Neither of which looks good for them.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@laundryman, what are the possible outcomes? Judgments or ciukd it be kicked down the road?
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@Haggis_Trap, how did SB get his ISTD without grandfather rights?
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You know it makes sense.
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@Haggis_Trap, great website by the way loving the pics!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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The guy in the video, jeans yves, has clearly political agenda to get the euro test aboloished.
Good luck to him, but its a bit like a party political broadcast.
There will be legal outcome eventually when edin and brussels eventually have their say.
But my own guess is that euro test in some format is here to stay.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Sat 15-08-15 22:22; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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@ajc2260626, I think the court has rolled two cases into hearing, for reasons of efficiency: BASI's appeal against the court's interdict (injunction, in English law terminology) which overturned BASI's expulsion of SB; and SB's suit for damages concerning BASI's failure to renew his MoU stamp. I guess both issues could go either way, so there are four possible outcomes. (Beware, I am not a lawyer!)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| laundryman wrote: |
| @Haggis_Trap, how did SB get his ISTD without grandfather rights? |
All old grade ones were converted to L4 when the basi system changed.
However in those days the euro test didnt exist.....
So french exemption had to be applied for before 2005.
As you say, the courts will decide the answer to your question now.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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There is a fundamental flaw in jeans yves argument. He said that a qualification to teach in any EU country applies in all. Well there is no requirement for any qualification to teach skiing in the UK.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Haggis_Trap, it was very forthright I must agree..... I am not sure what political axe he could have to grind though? Unless he's had a fall out with someone in the esf?
@laundryman, I look forward to seeing what happens
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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And just to confirm, none of this has any bearing on the legal position in France, though perhaps the current state of French proceedings will be taken into account in Edinburgh. As far as I'm aware, some of SB's convictions (and those of his staff) have been overturned on appeal, while the other convictions have been suspended, pending a decision of the Administrative Court as to whether the French administration broke the law in its handling of SB and staff's declarations.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@ajc2260626, I'm speculating, but it could be that JPL would like to employ his own stagiaires (trainees), but cannot qualify as a Centre de Formation (as no-one could based in a single small resort).
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@Haggis_Trap, I've no idea where this 'French exemption' idea (also deployed by TTT) comes from. It's up to BASI to decide who gets grandfather rights, not any French body (I'd have thought). He has an ISTD (through grandfather rights) and I'm not aware that any French organisation (or anybody else) has a veto on endorsement of a ISTD card with an MoU sticker, for which no further qualification is required (or Lockerbie and Bates wouldn't have one). I'm also sure that there are people who have passed the same exams as SB, AL and DB, with ISTD and MoU, who've never been anywhere near France.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sat 15-08-15 22:35; edited 1 time in total
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Don't be surprised if you see a few of Simon's team driving around in Aston Martins very soon, especially Mark Gibbs & Alex Casey who were locked up in French cells for doing nothing more than their job, Teaching Skiing.
These guys are going to get huge payouts after all this is settled.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
The guy in the video, jeans yves, has clearly political agenda to get the euro test aboloished.
Good luck to him, but its a bit like a party political broadcast.
There will be legal outcome eventually when edin and brussels eventually have their say.
But my own guess is that euro test in some format is here to stay. |
And not to the benefit of the paying customer.
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| Teacher wrote: |
Don't be surprised if you see a few of Simon's team driving around in Aston Martins very soon, especially Mark Gibbs & Alex Casey who were locked up in French cells for doing nothing more than their job, Teaching Skiing.
These guys are going to get huge payouts after all this is settled. |
Good for them. They can claim one free beer from me any time.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| @Haggis_Trap, I've no idea where this 'French exemption' idea (also deployed by TTT) comes from. It's up to BASI to decide who gets grandfather rights, not any French body (I'd have thought). He has an ISTD (through grandfather rights) and I'm not aware that any French organisation (or anybody else) has a veto on endorsement of a ISTD card with an MoU sticker, for which no further qualification is required (or Lockerbie and Bates wouldn't have one). I'm also sure that there are people who have passed the same exams as SB, AL and DB, with ISTD and MoU, who've never been anywhere near France. |
The french stipulated a cut off date for exemption.
This was part of the deal when euro test original came into place (satolas agrememt)
Some snowboarders also got exemption round about the same time.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| @ajc2260626, I'm speculating, but it could be that JPL would like to employ his own stagiaires (trainees), but cannot qualify as a Centre de Formation (as no-one could based in a single small resort). |
Very good guess, I would say.
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Well, one thing (among tons of other things) that I am still not sure on is the 'right/freedom to work'.
The videos' emphasis is on this freedom.
So it is pretty clear that as an experienced teacher or qualified teacher (with my little Austrian Anwaerter) I can approach a French ski school and be employed within their training system; and have a right to do so as it were.
But it is clear that this is on the decision of the 'dossier' I produce to create a position for me on an equivalent level within their system; which for me would be pretty low down!
So, if a top level French instructor with their diploma is the only qualification that allows them to employ and manage other teachers within their own ski school environment, and to gain this level requires the Eurotest, it seems quite clear to me that ones 'dossier' must contain this piece of evidence to match your competition/colleagues.
And this is where the whole thing gets messy IMO.
A head of a french ski school needs a eurotest. So any european wishing to set up a ski school must also have one to prove equivalent.
....but, i hear you cry painfully into your hands, the highest diploma in France is issued along with an ISTD cert, and SB has one so they are surely equivalent?!? (where's the interrobang when you need one?)
And this is why leaving the ISTD is helpful for the French; it creates a clear French pathway to their highest level which includes the eurotest.
I guess this is the whole mess that they have all got themselves into.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| laundryman wrote: |
| @Haggis_Trap, I've no idea where this 'French exemption' idea (also deployed by TTT) comes from. It's up to BASI to decide who gets grandfather rights, not any French body (I'd have thought). He has an ISTD (through grandfather rights) and I'm not aware that any French organisation (or anybody else) has a veto on endorsement of a ISTD card with an MoU sticker, for which no further qualification is required (or Lockerbie and Bates wouldn't have one). I'm also sure that there are people who have passed the same exams as SB, AL and DB, with ISTD and MoU, who've never been anywhere near France. |
The french stipulated a cut off date for exemption.
This was part of the deal when euro test original came into place (satolas agrememt)
Some snowboarders also got exemption round about the same time. |
So how come SB has an ISTD? The MoU wasn't invented at the time of Satolas. Besides which (it's a digression, really) an agreement between BASI and a French trade union has no legal standing.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@jbob, not really.
He mentioned the 'unqualified' teachers in Portugal.
And the bit about whether something is 'regulated' or not.
Technically you could create a dossier with enough evidence that you have a right to be equivalent to the ISTD / French diploma thingy etc.. etc.. without ever taking a single examination or had a single part of training but that is up to the specific countries regulating body (that you are applying to) to decide... good luck with that one 
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Poster: A snowHead
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@flangesax, I only watched two of the videos maybe I missed something. My thoughts were forgetting about skiing for a moment, my niece is Spanish, and is a qualified social worker in Spain, she is at the moment applying for the right to use her Spanish qualification to be a qualified social worker in the UK. My thinking was that as there is no requirement for a qualification of any sort to teach skiing at any level in the UK the equivalence EU rule would be hard to apply/enforce.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@jbob, I think the idea is that foreign qualifications must be accepted where the training (as augmented by an individual's experience) has 'no substantial difference' to that given for the legally required local qualification. I'm not sure that the legal status of the foreign qualification in the foreign country has any bearing. In a 2006 court case, the French authorities could not demonstrate that such a substantial difference existed for SB and his staff, and they worked unmolested for several years thereafter.
Complete coincidence: my nephew's Spanish wife is working as a social worker in the UK with her Spanish qualification. Let me know if you would like your niece to be put in touch.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@laundryman, thanks for the offer, I'll ask her when I speak to her next. I guess my line of thought needs to go in the red herring category.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Steilhang wrote: |
@waitrose,
| Quote: |
| I suspect that the Italians would have been duped by Simon showing them his now defunct old MOU stamp which they would not have known had been rescinded and hence thought they were obliged to issue the same. Simon Butler has persistently and for many years tried to get around the rules and the law. The fact that he has tried yet again to get around the system and gain an MOU stamp from the Italians is just another one of his 'scams'. |
Fairly serious allegations to be directing at a professional on an open internet forum. You have proof of any of this? |
Simon Butler was found guilty of these "serious allegations" in a court of law.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@waitrose, guilty? When?
Will you answer other questions about ET and all the grandfather rights?
Or do you just like trading bad facts?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@gilo, I understand the theme of what you are saying but I am talking about the general principle of instructors adhering to the rules whether they agree with them or not. There is a lot of criteria that has to be gone through in order to obtain a licence to teach skiing and I think it is right that ski instructor associations ensure that licence holders have gained theirs properly out of respect to all of the other instructors that have obtained them properly. So it doesn't matter whether the licence in question is for a level 1,2,3 or 4 they should be gained properly and BASI and other countries' associations should endeavour to make sure this happens and hence BASI are supporting the vast majority of its members who have gained whatever licence they have via the correct means.
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@waitrose, are you TTT resurrected? Your rhetoric seems curiously similar.
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@Dunk, I am sorry to say that most of the rhetoric on this thread and on other forums about the Simon Butler case is factually incorrect. People get half the facts make an opinion comment on it and pass it on and so it is like Chinese whispers where over a period of time the facts get distorted so much they bear little or no resemblance to the actual facts. About 75% of the comments on the last few pages of this thread are factually incorrect, no doubt for the reasons I have stated. The stuff I am reading here now I have seen over and over again and frankly I am tired of it so I will leave it to you guys to carry on. If you or anyone else wants my opinion please send me a PM and I will happily engage with you (please don't think that I have said that due to an overbearing sense of self importance it is just that I have learned that on a forum such as this it is useless trying to state the facts because in a very short time they become diluted or misunderstood etc. Many people enjoy this and just see it as good banter but unfortunately I don't and find myself shouting at the screen, ha ha!) Thanks for your input.
Hi @ajc2260626, I think I read, although I cannot find it now that you were asking for my opinion. As I believe I explained a few pages ago I don't want to engage in this issue anymore so if you want to PM me I would be happy to exchange thoughts if you wish. (I don't know how I got sucked back into this again anyway, I am always a mug for punishment, ha ha) 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Good grief.
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| thecramps wrote: |
| Good grief. |
Yep, watch out everyone, incoming teddy from direction of waitrose's pram. It appears he or she has run out of arguments and doesn't want to play any more.
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FAQ
