How dangerous is skiing? (... not very, I'd say...)

A snowHead

So, prompted by a comment elsewhere I had a little look.

What I found quickly were stats from the Swiss Council for Accident Prevention. Interesting reading. http://www.bfu.ch/en/research-and-statistics/statistics

So for Switzerland alone, it looks very much as though the sport hasn't become any more dangerous at all in the last ten years. Head injury rates haven't changed - although by observation helmets are work much more frequently by many more people.

And the death rate is 1 per 1.4 million ski days. (Also more or less unchanged over 10 years).

http://genevalunch.com/2015/02/25/ski-injuries-gravity-and-rate-unchanged-in-10-years/

A snowHead

@under a new name,
Its pretty safe these days largely thanks to mobile phones and other equipment.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

bit of a meaningless question though, isn't it? "How dangerous is swimming?". Quite, if you like wild water after a few sherberts and take no notice of the red flags. Hardly at all if you do a few lengths of breast-stroke in the local pool. And, from the linked article, significantly higher than 1 per 1.4 million ski days for off piste skiing (and lower for piste skiing) though they don't attempt the calculation.

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https://www.skiinghistory.org/history/ski-helmets-how-we-got-here

These stats would suggest something different on head injuries.

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Interesting table at the bottom of this link. Stats can be misleading though. Bingo has a lot of fatalities.......

http://www.medicine.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/booth/risk/sports.html

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This one's interesting, particularly the comparisons between boarding and skiing. Boarding seems to have more injuries but that may be due to the difference in age demographic and the fact that boarders seem to like snow-parks and jumps etc.
http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2013/dec/30/is-skiing-the-worlds-most-dangerous-sport

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I feel it's far to easy to make sweeping statements about the safety of skiing. You really need to look at the different areas. Example, a blue run back down to the resort in late afternoon could have more accidents than a black run first thing in the morning. Does this mean the blue run is more dangerous. Not really, it's more lightly that there are more people on the slopes who are tried/bit tipsy. Look at the black first thing and you will have better skiers on fresh legs. This is just an example but I feel that you need to look at why the statistics are the way they are.

In my experience the worst injury I've seen was on a wide red runs where people come from either side at speed and collided. Now skiing off piste a lot seen a few scary moments but to me it seems that people going off piste (and this is Defiantly not always the case) are more experienced and can fall better.

I know these are general examples but my point is that different areas of skiing have different risks. It would he very interesting to see a breakdown of injuries relating to age, type of skiing and if they ski of board

After all it is free

@cameronphillips2000, interesting, good links, thanks. First, a quick recap from elsewhere, ((NB this is not a relighting of the helmet debate!!!)

"I went on two school trips as a sixth former and helmets were not offered. In the 80's very few wore helmets and then a wave of helmet wearing came in, led by the Americans.

I think the benefits of a mobile are obvious really. Our ski group split on quite a few occasions on the Birthday Bash and text messages to check if everyone was OK and without our phones we'd never have known if everyone was OK and re-meet. A quick phone call from a missing person can save rescue teams an lot of unnecessary work, leaving them free to work where needed.

The stats on helmets speak for themselves really: From 1995 to 2010 ski helmet use rose from 5% to 76%. Serious head injuries dropped by 65% in the same time. The debates are now more about which helmet? rather than helmet?"

Addressing these first,

I started in 1970 and by 1975 my siblings and the friends we skied with all wore helmets. Many kids did. Mostly it has to be said, to protect against being hit and lacerated by loose-cannon heavy wooden t-bars. Per the Swiss stats, it's pretty clear that by their methodology, helmets really only went mainstream in the last 10-12 years and don't appear to have changed the stats on head injuries.

(& @T Bar) I didn't have a mobile phone until (I guess) 1994. I and everyone I knew managed to organise themselves without one. We just made sure everyone knew what the plan was and didn't get lost. And had fairly well defined RV points if someone did get lost. Just what everyone did, really... I will grant that there are - especially in off piste situations - events where mobile comms make a difference, but I suspect on piste it's at most marginal. I don't see how mobile phones can be a major contributor to snow safety...

@cameronphillips2000, first link. Yep, interesting. My initial guess would be that (methological differences aside) there is a big difference in terrain between North America and Europe. There is a lot of "proper" tree skiing and at almost any speed, intimate bark munching involving a head impact is going to be serious. There is not nearly so much tree skiing in Europe, although that Morzine/Pleney seem to have instituted "glading" - which is great, but will have its consequences. c.f. http://www.ski-injury.com/prevention/helmet

And that's enough about helmets!!!

@under a new name,
Apologies I should have put in an emoticon I had just read the other thread and was being facetious, that thread was not one on which to be facetious.

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@T Bar, ah, got it snowHead

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Just like motoring, there are many serious accidents involving male 17-25 year olds A combination of youth and testosterone which overrides sensible decision making. We've all been there. When I was 17 I drove and skied well beyond my capabilities probably endangering others. As parents we can only hope to pass on wisdom to our children and equip them to make them as safe as possible. What has come out of the stats for me is that most fatalities and life changing injuries are down to head injuries. The helmet is a no brainer.

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You know it makes sense.

Skiing holidays attract higher insurance costs than normal holidays - so it looks like the insurance holidays take the view that skiing is a risky activity. And looking at modular insurance, where one pays against a menu of what you want to be insured for, such as BMC insurance, ski touring is decidedly risky. True, the cost of getting you back to a hospital must be a lot more expensive than recovering you from a piste. But that also applies to scrambling which can involve climbing on limited holds in very remote, exposed places. And last time I looked, that incurred lower insurance premiums than cover for ski touring.

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@cameronphillips2000, a well organised off piste week will likely involve more risk than an on piste week, by nature of where you are. But I (personally) don't feel the marginal risk to be off putting. Also, depends just what sort of off piste is in mind...

A snowHead

@cameronphillips2000, I think that the point about different people doing different things are at very different levels of risk is a valid one and young men pulling stunts in terrain parks are likely to have a far higher accident rate than my own rather sedentary progress down a slope.
I must say though that my own reading of all the statistics is that for me wearing a helmet far from being a no brainer is a no matter, it is almost certainly of a far greater safety issue as to whether or not I chose the charcuterie as my lunch when I'm away skiing.

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@cameronphillips2000, the article the OP linked to says

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Well personal experience:

Cycling = fractured skull! broken collar bone! broken hand and numerous other injuries
Hockey = two broken hands and numerous hospital trips for serious cuts
Skiing = light bruising

Yep skiing way safer

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ouch.

cycling = dented chin (still dented 25yrs later), most teeth chipped, and several stitches to hold chin in one piece (show me a helmet that'll protect that)
hockey = a ball dead centre of forehead flicked directly from a bully-off (so about 1m range)
skiing = 1ft diameter bruise once that was very picturesque in an abstract art kind of way

After all it is free

Personal experience:

1 (probably) broken little finger - caught in boot of car
1 x tibial plateau fracture, ruptured meniscus and damaged MCL - accident in the flat in Austria involving night storage heater, surgery and repatriation
1 x cracked rib - skiing, fell and landed on phone in jacket pocket.

Insurance paid out for TPF, €5000

I think "dangerous" holds a pretty wide definition. Very anecdotal (like the examples above) I know, but having been on a football tour where virtually everyone on a few buses (so a couple of hundred people) returned with little more than sore heads/hangovers. Yet the queue for check in on my last ski holiday resembled a queue for the fracture clinic on a Tuesday morning - there was a fair amount of crutch, brace and strapping action going on!

Yet my own experiences tell me that I've fractured my ankle, snapped my humerus in two and tore ligaments in my ankle (the first two were in the space of 6 months) from playing football. Skiing, I've had an achey shoulder and a bruise on the back of my calf (from having crap technique and sitting back too much). Of course if I compared the skiing hours against football playing hours the football playing hours would go in to many thousands even though I've not played competitively for about 11 years.

If anyone has read the Freakonomics series the on/off piste, helmet/no helmet debate could we be something that would interest the authors, as conclusions from statistics are very rarely as clear cut as they would seem.

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I do love (no really I do!) unscientific anecdotal analysis Happy

Mountain biking: lots... too many to mention but including a couple of hospitalisations and one requiring 6 weeks off work
Boarding: crack ribs (the old phone in pocket trick), cracked patella, some massive bruises
Skiing: some big bruises when I got flattened by a mate 30 years ago. And I did a "game keeper's thumb" on the Sheffield dry slope once.

But activity levels are massively different - ranging from MTBing at nearly once a week for the last 30 years (on and off) to boarding which is a total of maybe 5 weeks activity. My perception is that boarding, if not actually dangerous, definitely hurts; I take most risks MTBing because I do it a lot; but skiing seems really safe wink

PS I was a relatively early adopter of skiing helmets because I was used to wearing them for other things and I was fed up with whacking the back of my head catching a heel edge boarding!

On a more serious not I know (and know of) a lot of people who have seriously injured themselves cycling, but I also know a significant minority who've had serious long term injuries from skiing (ie knees). I'd also consider off piste skiing on a similar level of risk to winter climbing - but that's my perception from my personal experience which is from the safer end of the spectrum (ie mostly on the piste or on ice-free rock). I do consider all these risks more since becoming a parent of.

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@Jonny Jones, it is interesting that you make the point that the skiers involved were English speakers. Again anecdotal... an instructor I had just over a week ago (a local from Hinterglemm) was talking about the avalanche risk and those who have been killed in Austria in recent years. He was saying that by far most incidents/deaths are local/Austrian ski tourers who seem to have grown up in the mountains, know what they are doing (presumably with the kit) but take the risk. No idea whether this is true or not.

@Jonny Jones, thanks for trying to get thread back on track. Getting pretty boring reading people boasting about their injuries. Not really interested

You know it makes sense.

@peanuthead, people aren't "boasting about their injuries" - they (me) are offering a personal experience that skiing injuries are not at all serious when compared to other injuries sustained, so skiing is not as dangerous. If you aren't interested then don't read it.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

@hammerite, on reflection, it's no surprise they spoke English. Val D'Isere sometimes feels like an Alpine extension to the Home Counties. French skiers are an endangered species there.

A snowHead

Speed & blinkerd death skiers

=

Carving skis & helmets

Have made the slopes far more dangerous! Shocked

A snowHead

@stanton, you forgot skiing apps where people spend the week trying to up their max speed and posting it on facebook. Anyway, I agree with you.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@peanuthead, personal experience is important here, as although it's completely useless in itself in understanding risks it illustrates how people get their perception of the risks. This in turn influences their behaviour - ie deciding to go somewhere or do something risky isn't usually based on studying actual stas, but on someone's individal perception of the risk (be it real or not). This in turn will influence the stats as those who don't appreciate the real risks might be more likely to become casualties.

What is interesting is that you can see two routes to risky behaviour in this way. For instance to follow up to the two stereotypes mentioned you get Brit skiers under estimating the risk of avalanche as they have no personal experience of that risk and limited experience of the environment, but you also get local ski tourers, who understand the risk of avalance and have lots of mountain experience, but put themselves in risky situations in a "it will never happen to ME" way. So they've become blasé to the risks in their own back garden, whereas the naive Brit skier probably never had a grasp of the risks in the first place.

Please excuse the massive generalisations!

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Insurance companies are actually quite good at computing risk - it is, after all, their business, and a competitive one. There are good reasons why cover for extensive skiing, especially off-piste, carries high premiums. I know quite a few people who have been injured on ski holidays - as we all do, probably. I do think MTBing is dangerous, too, as is football (in terms of injury, if not death) but most people are doing those activities at home rather than on holiday so the insurance issue is unlikely to be relevant.

But in everyday terms a family holiday skiing on piste with care and attention is not a dangerous business, despite the occasional horrendous accident which (unlike equally tragic road deaths) hits the headlines.

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Skiing is not that dangerous but in my experience walking in ski boots on a wet wooded deck/floor is. Slipping on a wooden deck gave me my worst holiday skiing injury, broken hand and a night in Bourg hospital!

I also recall reading some years back that for holiday skiers it was more dangerous to go tobogganing at night than skiing during the day, according to insurance industry figures Confused

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@tarrantd, it is waaayyyy more dangerous to go tobogganing - day or night - than skiing. Especially if, as tragically happened a few years ago - you choose to toboggan using the crash mats that were put at the bottom of the slope in case you crashed into them on a toboggan rolling eyes

After all it is free

Worst injury in our family was toboganning - son smashed his ankle on a fence at the bottom of the slope, in Alpbach. That was at night, and with his girlfriend also on the (not very big) toboggan. rolling eyes

Ankle operated on in Innsbruck.

Extraordinarily, through the haze of pain, he vaguely recognised the voice of someone who came to the rescue and, with the girlfriend (who was merely concussed) helped him back to the nearby chalet we'd all been staying in a couple of weeks previously, where the chalet boy, who had become a mate, called an ambulance.

The rescuer turned out to be someone he had often chatted to in a pub they both frequented, in Portsmouth. I met him too, when he happened to fly back on the same plane, still helping with the wheelchair and baggage. I gave him a lift back to Pompey.

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So glad MTBing turned out to be mountain biking

Help!!

How dangerous is skiing? (... not very, I'd say...)

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