 Poster: A snowHead
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| Weathercam wrote: |
For those that have not read the LG thread in "weather report - snow conditions" few weeks back I was in tiny resort where we came across a couple of the original La Grave pioneers with Pele at Skiers Lodge - and they had moved to this place and were very annoyed with our guide for taking punter clients there for fear of their little paradise being both found and skied out! |
I don't suppose that was a little Italian place that recently dispensed with grooming (and has a very attractive lift pass price)?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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No not that one 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Zero_G, agreed. no such thing a s stupid question, only a stupid answer. If you think the question is stupid, think about *why* you think that and provide some useful feedback and information to the OP - as has happened here, the OP now knows what the problems are
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I'd make a couple of observations here.
1) There is more B/S talked about La Grave than any other ski destination. The risks of skiing there are slightly different - I'd be worrying more about the consequences of navigational error, falling and glacial hazards more than I usually would. I'd also be aware that the degree of skier compaction in most of the easily accessible stuff tends to reduce the avalanche risk significantly in many circumstances. But it is not much different to skiing off piste in any other big mountain environment. It is unique more because of the culture and atmosphere of the place, rather than because the terrain and hazards are different.
2) The real question here is not "can I ski this place safely?" It is "how do I become a safe off-piste skier?" I'm not sure that saying "if you have to ask" is particularly helpful. It should steer people away from killing themselves inadvertently but doesn't really help them with the underlying issue. Getting to a place where you can do interesting things unguided is possible for UK based recreational skiers but it's a long term project and it is time consuming. It also requires a degree of risk taking - as you cannot really learn anything new without making mistakes. Indeed the real trick in the mountains is making the mistakes you need to make in order to learn and doing so without dying. Giving people an idea of the commitment, the risks and the training required might be more helpful.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Zero G - there are questions, and questions...
1) can anyone suggest a good guide book / website to La Grave or a guide/professional who knows it well that I could contact? I am doing some research in advance of a possible future visit and I want to know what's what.
2) where's safe in La Grave...
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@hum3, the Vamos guidebook for the area works well and is available in English. It is weak on the "road runs" but I would not want to navigate those based solely on the contents of a guidebook in any case. It needs to be used alongside the relevant 1:25,000 map.
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| hum3 wrote: |
| 2) where's safe in La Grave... |
Easy, the pisted sections at the top 
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| gorilla wrote: |
| Getting to a place where you can do interesting things unguided is possible for UK based recreational skiers but it's a long term project and it is time consuming. |
Disagree. But perhaps it's true for Southern England based skiers.
| gorilla wrote: |
| It also requires a degree of risk taking - as you cannot really learn anything new without making mistakes. |
Agree. Although making mistakes is often not an option.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Gorilla / AAT - sorry, you misunderstand (my fault, for not being clear / quoting what I was referring to). I was referring to Zero G's comment (now on the previous page) about 'having to ask questions'. My point being that all questions are not equal, and the question can reveal a lot about the person asking it.
Although I am interested in skiing La Grave, I will probably look at your suggestion in future when I am actually planning a trip, alongside the map, and advice from people I trust!
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| Weathercam wrote: |
| few weeks back I was in tiny resort where we came across a couple of the original La Grave pioneers with Pele at Skiers Lodge - and they had moved to this place and were very annoyed with our guide for taking punter clients there for fear of their little paradise being both found and skied out! |
if it helps ill always think off U as a punter skier 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| hum3 wrote: |
| My point being that all questions are not equal, and the question can reveal a lot about the person asking it |
What do you think the OP's question reveals about him?
What do you think that your judgement of the OP (because he asked if there are any safe routes that don't need a guide instead of asking for the names of guides or guide books) reveals about you?
Despite thinking that the OP is a nutter for skiing/boarding a primarily off piste domain with loads of exposure and objective hazards that he has never ridden before and was thinking of doing it without a guide, the fact that he has asked if there are routes he could takes safely tells me that he at least has thought – to some degree – about the risks involved. Maybe not enough to come out of the experience unscathed but that's his choice.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@moffatross, after about five hundred hours or so of unguided off piste to be feel comfortable making judgement calls in avalanche terrain. That included two week long courses with a focus on avalanche hazard and mountaincraft.
That excludes time spent learning from people on here (in particular I remain indebted to Haggis Trap and BobinCH for various things) and time spent reading theory. Others may learn at different rates but for me it was a project that took just over a season to acquire a basic level of competence.
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| moffatross wrote: |
| gorilla wrote: |
| Getting to a place where you can do interesting things unguided is possible for UK based recreational skiers but it's a long term project and it is time consuming. |
Disagree. But perhaps it's true for Southern England based skiers.
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Being able to ski safely off piste is a set of skills, skills that can be learnt like any other skills. It doesn't matter where you live all that's needed is an open mind and a willingness to learn it's not rocket science. I've been skiing off piste/touring for nearly 35 years I've only ever skied with a guide once that was 10 years ago, never again. I've not skied La Grave, I've climbed there in summer and managed to find my way around all the hazards without coming to any harm as I have on my many ski trips. Just because you're not comfortable in the mountains on your own doesn't mean other people will feel the same.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Zero_G wrote: |
| I find the "if you have to ask" statement rather specious. If you don't have enough info/knowledge then you do have to ask – nothing wrong with that. |
+1
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| gorilla wrote: |
I'd make a couple of observations here.
1) There is more B/S talked about La Grave than any other ski destination. The risks of skiing there are slightly different - I'd be worrying more about the consequences of navigational error, falling and glacial hazards more than I usually would. I'd also be aware that the degree of skier compaction in most of the easily accessible stuff tends to reduce the avalanche risk significantly in many circumstances. But it is not much different to skiing off piste in any other big mountain environment. It is unique more because of the culture and atmosphere of the place, rather than because the terrain and hazards are different.
2) The real question here is not "can I ski this place safely?" It is "how do I become a safe off-piste skier?" I'm not sure that saying "if you have to ask" is particularly helpful. It should steer people away from killing themselves inadvertently but doesn't really help them with the underlying issue. Getting to a place where you can do interesting things unguided is possible for UK based recreational skiers but it's a long term project and it is time consuming. It also requires a degree of risk taking - as you cannot really learn anything new without making mistakes. Indeed the real trick in the mountains is making the mistakes you need to make in order to learn and doing so without dying. Giving people an idea of the commitment, the risks and the training required might be more helpful. |
Great post thanks gorilla
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Poster: A snowHead
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@gorilla, I get you now. Yours was binge learning in a season, which must have been fun In that context, accumulating so many hours of experience in UK mountains with taught days etc is defintely a long-term project over many winters of weekends. I've skied a bit with Haggis Trap, he's learned some hard lessons I hope I never have to learn, and I value his knowledge too.
Safe glacier travel OTOH is not something we can learn effectively in the UK's mountains.
@OwenM, not quite sure of your meaning, or who you were posting at, but I think we probably mostly agree with each other. I definitely wouldn't say 'never again' to a guide though.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@gorilla, as a "punter" living out here with LG just over the Col I am forever learning and gaining experience be it actually skiing or navigating finding new routes etc
In the summer we go hiking with the main purpose of discovering new routes.
To a certain degree as has been alluded to it can be about confidence as to how comfortable one feels, not so much being in an exposed situation (don't fall here etc) but being a long way from anywhere and the "what if" question going through the back of your mind - and as I've mentioned before made all the worse if out on your own.
Over confidence can be very dangerous and I learnt my lesson the hard way going off a cliff and smashing myself up quite badly, hobbling around for the last three weeks of the season. Was a lesson learnt though.
I still really enjoy being with guides, especially in new areas would love to do more but is a tad expensive, and only have a guide when a group of mates come out from the UK, which might be a couple of times a year, though I do get the odd day or so as an invitation every now and again as payment for other stuff I do.
Anyway all mildly irrelevant at the moment as conditions are not good and just seem to be getting worse, what with lack of snow low down and strong winds up top. See that LG at the top was shut yesterday. Spring touring is going to involve a lot of walking to get to the snow line 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
Agree. Although making mistakes is often not an option.
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You know, that depends. Doing new stuff you WILL make mistakes. Really the judgement is about not taking on too much - not putting yourself in positions where you HAVE to get things right before you have the skills/experience to be highly confident that you WILL get things right. That doesn't mean you cant ski off-piste unguided until you have spent a season focused on avalanche safety but it does mean cutting down risk. An expert may well be able to make good decisions about which 40 degree slopes are safely skiable on a level 3 day, or which shallower slopes with nasty runouts are worth skiing. I don't have confidence in my judgement of these things so I stay on shallower angles and avoid terrain traps - it reduces the expertise I need to stay safe.
We all know that the experts get it wrong too sometimes. There are no guarantees. This does mean that you do need a bit of risk appetite/tolerance to ski off-piste. But you could certainly say the same about climbing or sailing. Personally I find managing risk sensibly to be one of the rewarding things about all these sports. The risk I took as a young man climbing (including in the Alps) dwarf anything I do skiing off-piste. And I wasn't hardcore in any sense.
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@jedster, your post reminds of something that I meant to put in - that is many with a climbing / mountaineering background tend to be better at risk assessment etc and feel more comfortable in majority of off piste situations and as you say have probably experienced more situations up a face than when skiing!
Think many a Scottish skier is at an advantage here over the majority of English skiers - though obviously there are English climbers as well !!
If I'm over in LG I might well end up hearing more Scottish accents than English, especially around the ice climbing season.
Now a days I might be chicken on skiing certain slopes, but at least I'm an alive chicken - and I often have my OH with me who is the sensible one asking / demanding "is this a good idea" !
My buzz is getting the climbing route right when ski touring in new terrain, or when dropping off the back and successfully ending up where I actually hoped I'd end up 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@jedster, This echoes my younger years climbing most of the peaks in and around Zermatt with limited (at the time) experience, put ourselves several times in places we wish we weren't, but luckily survived and learnt from it......
I would also say that mountaineering is far riskier than off-piste skiing, not to undermine the dangers in that though!
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An accident today in the Orcières illustrates some of the issues. A skier fell 300 vertical meters i the couloir and was killed. Now I'm a way from la Grave so don't know the exact local conditions however we had high altitude rain early in the week then a lot of wind, this has left a lot of slopes hard and icy and this may have been a factor in this accident.
As others have said though, these kind of issues are present off piste in a lot of places. However if I were skiing tomorrow then I'd sooner be in l'Alpe d'Huez than la Grave. Start with Grand Sablat in the morning then move around to the south facing slopes at midday etc.
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@boardiac, oh my what a great post and what a selection of replies.
I'm not sure I'd ski there without a guide now (47, wife 3 kids, a good income, deteriorating fitness and limited time). But I'm pretty sure I'd have skied it with mates when I was 18-25 : hard up money wise, fit, had the same level of skiing as I do now ( which I didn't then). When I did lots of things without guides.
Vallons is by far the least risky route, but misses the delights of the Chancel hut. Unless you are very experienced elsewhere and with fantastic skills don't even think about doing any of the couloirs and be very careful that you don't ski beyond the marker rope at the top of the cliffs.
It is relentless with no let up. The easy bits are hard.
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| ed123 wrote: |
@boardiac,
It is relentless with no let up. The easy bits are hard. |
Best comment and how true.......
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
Pic Blanc du Galibier
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Did that last year on my EMS exam - I think there are EMS exams on at the moment, which may explain the amount of traffic....
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@stevomcd, Steve up there week in week out it's the Ski Randonee equivalent of the M25 which I've commented on before, all the local randonee clubs from the cities head up there along with guided groups.
I usually stay well clear and do either routes to the right and left of this pic (loads of options) - Trois Evaches , Col du Galibier . Tete Noire to the right out of picture. As well as the N facing slopes of the Combeynot from the Lautaret.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Yeah, there were loads of bodies when we did it too. We actually dropped off on a different line (north facing? can't remember) from the peak and got some really nice, untracked snow down into another wee valley or two, then skinned back out and dropped into the main line for the last part of the descent. Nice tour.
Think we did the Combeynot too, although I'd need to look at a map to refresh my memory.
[EDIT - looks at map...]
Yeah, we did the Combeynot, although we actually stopped just short of the Breche and headed down as one of the guys in my group was having vertigo issues (leading to kick-turn issues...)
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Thanks all for the replies.
As for whether I'm a numpty for asking the original question: Whilst I am a good snowboarder and being aware that the place is dangerous, it seemed like a sensible thing to ask. Of course there are hundreds of alternative possible questions, but given I also have to work for a living, I thought something more general (and immediately practical) than which book to buy for future research was sensible.
It would have been good, for example, to have known that there are actually pistes at the top.
We have just come back from L2A and - because of the replies at the start if this thread - we decided not to go over to LG (or drive around with the hire car). The reason was that (as I expected) my buddies did not want to pay for a guide, and I refused to go without a guide. At least we got to ski and ride together, and had awesome weather.
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You know it makes sense.
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@boardiac, I wasn't suggesting that you were a numpty, my comment was made precisely because you were obviously worried enough to be concerned about it in the first place. There is only one (very short) marked piste on the glacier.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@boardiac, wise decision.
There are pistes at the top, but they're pretty pointless. Nice enough pistes, but pretty short compared to the massive vertical of La Grave and they only allow you to lap the top T-bar.
To be honest, if there's not been fresh snow, it's easy enough to potter your way down La Grave, but what's the point? You go to la Grave for freeriding, not following the tracks down monster moguls.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Zero_G wrote: |
| I find the "if you have to ask" statement rather specious. If you don't have enough info/knowledge then you do have to ask – nothing wrong with that. |
There're information that would help a decision.
But then, there're decision that based largely on prior experience. So if you have to ask... you don't have what it takes!
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FAQ
