We are going out there this weekend (with avi gear...) - it has been somewhere I have wanted to go for YEARS. But getting a bit nervous now - any parts/routes that we should avoid (anywhere with crevasses, for example, would be bad)?
Any routes that are relatively safe?
We are planning on going without a guide
Thanks!
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I've been there 3 or 4 times and wouldn't go without someone who knows their way. There are relatively safe routes but they're not really marked. There are lots of potentially lethal routes.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
There are two basic but unmarked routes - Vallons de la Meije, and Chancel. They are quite serious - both have exposed elements but most skiers who can handle serious black, sometimes quite exposed descents seem to cope OK. I would not go down without a guide, though. Conditions can vary, and it would be all to easy to go astray into areas which are quite extreme.
I've been there once and definitely wouldn't go without someone who knows the way - well. Even in good vis it would be easy to go wrong and in bad vis you could be up there for a v long time.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@boardiac, You can find your way... but you'll need to have good weather. I'd stump up for a guide and enjoy the day.. once you know your way around a bit you can be more adventurous. LG does have places (cliffs, crevasses etc) which are not signposted, marked etc.. you don't want to get stuck....
if you go on your own make sure you know how to contact mountain rescue
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I am not sure going without a guide on your first trip (or even your second) is wise at all. The fact you have had to even ask the question says it all.
After all it is free
After all it is free
This is a quote from davidof's website pistehors.com
Quote:
Two things should be remembered about la Grave, apart from the couple of drag lifts at the top it is an off-piste ski domain and a lot of the skiing is on glaciated terrain. Now you may have skied glaciers over the hill at les Deux Alpes or elsewhere and think, "so what?". Well those ski areas were secured by the pisteurs. Crevasses are filled and dangers are marked with signposts and fences. So long as you stick to the pistes you are pretty much safe. At la Grave, along with the avalanche risk you have the complications of a high mountain environment: variable snow conditions, crevasses, rimayes, stone, ice and sérac falls. The snow conditions can vary from day to day and season to season. A 40 degree slope with ice is very different from one with powder. The locations of crevasses can change and the glacier can move making slopes steeper or exits impossible without a rope. Unless you are very familiar with this kind of environment we recommend hiring a guide who will also be able to find the best conditions.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
boardiac wrote:
We are planning on going without a guide
Contenders for the Darwin Awards.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
ouch. OK, point taken re guides. So there are no "safe" routes down then?
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
2 or 3 of us have said above that there are. It's making sure you find and keep to them that's the issue. If you don't want the expense of a guide there are half/full day group trips arranged by L2A ski schools which are very reasonable. I'm sure there must be that sort of thing from LG too.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
boardiac wrote:
ouch. OK, point taken re guides. So there are no "safe" routes down then?
as Claude says, the main routes should be ok in good weather but they are not extensively marked. The problem is, a couple of days after fresh snow they can be horrible to ski with cut up refrozen crud. If you hit fresh snow, but not too much they can be great.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
And snowball's comment near the end of that thread is weirdly pertinent
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Snowheads spent a day at La Grave last week ... 2 instructor led groups did the standard Vallons and Chancel routes down and one group of 8 skiers with 2 guides did the Chirouze decsent followed by top to bottom Vallons descent.
I have skied a few other days at La Grave and personally would be comfortable in good weather and snow conditions doing the standard routes down without a guide. But there are significant hazards to watch out for .... some of the serac falls on the Vallons side are spectacular ..... and when you ski over huge slabs of ice hundreds of metres away from the glacier you realise the risks.
I would not do the Glacier descents without a guide .... on the day we were there a snowshoer died in a crevasse fall .... and we needed to be roped down for a short steep traverse/step section with little snow.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Neither Vallons nor Chancel are especially dangerous if you know where you are going, the avalanche situation is favourable and the weather is good. The route finding is also fairly obvious. If you are used to navigating off piste without a guide then you should be fine. By that I mean comfortable skiing something like the back of the Mont Fort unguided. If this does not sound like you then it is guide time.
As Davidof mentions, if it hasn't snowed for a while the conditions on the main runs may be awful. Think big icy moguls for 2000 vertical metres. The skiing is almost always better in AdH in those circumstances.
If you ignore all of this then the 1:25 map (I think Meije Pelvoux is the relevant sheet) and a chat with the duty guide at the bottom of the lift will be invaluable.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
gorilla wrote:
Neither Vallons nor Chancel are especially dangerous if you know where you are going, the avalanche situation is favourable and the weather is good. The route finding is also fairly obvious. If you are used to navigating off piste without a guide then you should be fine. By that I mean comfortable skiing something like the back of the Mont Fort unguided. If this does not sound like you then it is guide time......
Go along with that........
I'm always amazed when I see French families skiing La Grave, with back packs only holding their pack lunch, but many of these people have been skiing there with their parents / elder siblings and know the main routes down.
I'm pretty confident skiing there on my own and do ski off the glacier linking up to Chancel - I know how to cross over the Breche from Chancel to Vallons etc and have taken the OH down Bannnane and Lac. Also routes down from P2 through the trees and eventually down to P1 both sides of Vallons.
I do know how to get to Patou and also Les Freaux but would not do those on my own, but I have been skiing there at least once a year since 97 !
I've had skied it in bad viz and that was not an enjoyable experience - I also question at times how good it actually is as the main routes can get pretty skied out very quickly with loads of groups lapping - there's often more fresh to be had up in Chazelet!
I was going over there this week, but today have seen how busy it is every where with all the South on holidays and know from speaking to a mate in a shop today how many have LG on their bucket list this week.
Also feckin UCPA groups of nigh on 12 in a group today it seemed trashing a nice area we skinned up to thinking we'd be on our own, shouldn't be allowed (rant over)
Think I'll wait till things quiet down.
Should also imagine with the rain we had yesterday and I know in La Grave too, as I rang a friend up that down to P1 will not be a lot of fun as we found out today dropping back down into Monetier.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Quote:
shouldn't be allowed
indeed. Frightful, isn't it? Should only be the crachach allowed up in those areas.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I think Les 2 Alpes is the safe part of La Grave ?
After all it is free
After all it is free
It's the poor dogs I feel sorry for. The last time there I spotted the tariff for the canine season pass but I'm not sure if they need a photo. Presumably 'guide dogs' get a discount
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@Haggis_Trap, the worst collisions I have seen have all been in LDA. I'd rather take my chances with the seracs...
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
...just opened this thread.
Is this OP a troll?
If not...it's one of those contexts where 'if you have to ask the question then the answer is evident..'
La Grave:
you need
the right gear - particularly if you could stray off-route
knowledge of the routes or high competence in backing off and retracing
knowledge of what you are skiing/boarding into (note the La Grave deaths of snowboarders traversing slopes on boarding boots)
a high level of general alertness to Alpine risks - from experience, not heresay, assumption or books - eg seracs are not cheese but unpredictable menace
I'd avoid the bit on the left just after that rock...
Dude - seriously, we are talking about a huge domain and you're asking for directions on the internet? Of course there are safe bits but there aren't many where you can't get in trouble no matter how hard you try
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
To get to any terrain in La Grave where there are seracs and all the gnarly stuff you see in videos you have to be going seriously away from the recognised routes even on the glacier where there are two pistes !!
Yes there are many crevasses and the most dangerous ones are those you can't see.
When the link is open from LDA many will come over sans guide, take the pistes and end up at P3 then follow the main routes down.
When they do open the links then the main routes are pretty safe and tracked out as is probably the case this week with the South being on holidays.
I was thinking of popping over there this week, but had a call from a guide mate there asking me what the conditions were like here as he's getting stretched finding enough for his group this week following on from the rain of Sunday / Monday and he thought reading the forecasts that we might get more snow overnight this morning than there - that is certainly not the case
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Quote:
Also feckin UCPA groups of nigh on 12 in a group today it seemed trashing a nice area we skinned up to thinking we'd be on our own, shouldn't be allowed (rant over)
I think our instructor said UCPA SC has 7 dedicated off piste groups every week. 8 to a group plus the instructor. That's a LOT of people noseing about for the fresh snow...
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@kat.ryb, and some times way more than that over in LG especially on a Friday - hence the appeal of slack country skinning - only trouble is this year not enough snow to do some of the stuff we were doing last year to avoid em all - usually large groups don't do trees as can be a bit of a recipe for disaster with clients lost
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Quote:
We are planning on going without a guide
surely one day with a guide to get a sense of the place would be a good investment?
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@valais2, Great video, really sums up the whole ethos of La Grave, I particularly liked the comment about the birds soaring in the mountains carrying the souls of lost climbers and skiers..............
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Quote:
usually large groups don't do trees as can be a bit of a recipe for disaster with clients lost
Yeah you spend the whole time doing the 'rolly' rather than getting to ski properly.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Although not an avid off piste ski, I have skied for 20 years and have driven past La Grave on way to Serre Chevalier, I wouldn't fancy the last 500 yars of vertical drop never mind the whole route without someone showing me the way.
@KenX, glad you like it - I return to this vid when I feel glum in the summer and back comes the feeling of February in the high hills ... The smell, the light ...
And Arno ... Also spot on ...
There are trips where you push yourself to learn new things about the mountains.
There are trips when you have 'epics' which provide great hut and dinner stories
And then there are trips which should never be embarked on...
I think a guide would be a good idea - phoning the Skiers Lodge is a good place to start
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
2 thoughts...
1) Mountains are dynamic and ever changing environments - this is why asking where the "safe" zones are is a little dumb.
2) For moderately experienced off-piste skiers it is certainly not irresponsible, dangerous or naive (as some have suggested) to ski La Grave without a guide. However if you have to ask.....
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Haggis_Trap wrote:
However if you have to ask.....
That's what they always say and it makes a lot of sense. However it is always good to sound people isn't it? The OP now knows that the two main routes are relatively ok but are not pistes, that route finding is difficult on these routes if the weather is poor, they get skied out quickly and for anything else you need to be with a guide or someone experienced. If the weather is poor it would be sucky not to have a guide who could take you down one of the couloirs where you could at least have some visibility.
In any event have a mobile phone with you that works, the PGHM/CRS in Briançon run an almost daily taxi service to collect skiers who are stuck in one or other of the couloirs because they don't have ropes. I'm surprised they haven't got fed up with this but I guess it is good training when the weather is ok.
To respond to Gavin's somewhat rhetorical question "how good it actually is", it depends on a lot of things. If you want some kind of unique adventure then there are only a few places that offer that on that scale in France: la Grave, Chamonix, Pic du Midi in the Pyrenees but because Chamonix and la Grave are such off piste magnets you may, probably almost certainly will, get better skiing elsewhere. I'm an hour a way by road, more or less, from la Grave but it is not on my radar as somewhere to visit but for an American visitor it really was a "must do" trip of a lifetime. No one would give a s**t to hear he'd skied the N face of the Coulée de Grand Bronze, for example but all his buddies back home know la Grave. The snow may have been a bit ropey but with a guide he got to do one of the big couloirs, the guide handled all the ropework and route finding and my friend just had to concentrate on skiing and his go-pro. It's like Alpe d'Huez for cyclists, everyone wants to ride it and the Ventoux.
After all it is free
After all it is free
davidof wrote:
..............It's like Alpe d'Huez for cyclists, everyone wants to ride it and the Ventoux.
Very well put
Today must be fun, howling winds here in Serre with many lifts up top shut, but LG surprisingly is open but with minus 33 windchill predicted at the top, will be a long ride in the cabin today.
For those that have not read the LG thread in "weather report - snow conditions" few weeks back I was in tiny resort where we came across a couple of the original La Grave pioneers with Pele at Skiers Lodge - and they had moved to this place and were very annoyed with our guide for taking punter clients there for fear of their little paradise being both found and skied out!
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
I find the "if you have to ask" statement rather specious. If you don't have enough info/knowledge then you do have to ask – nothing wrong with that.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
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