 Poster: A snowHead
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And mountaineers are regularly killed in avalanches!
As a (mainly) former mountaineer, who now skis offpiste, and tours I think in some ways trudging through the snow at low speed gives you more of a feel for the snow conditions than skimming across the surface on skis. You certainly have far more time to evaluate conditions, and in deep snow the best routes for ascent are the rocky ridge lines which less prone to avalanche.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Not sure I agree with the general point of view. It depends how you define off piste. In my opinion skiing on the traditional near piste routes in many resorts is relatively safe. These routes are skier compacted into a near piste state over the season and allow the avoidance of sometimes busy and dangerous pistes. However you need an awareness of the terrain above, the general avalanche risk on a particular day and local knowledge. However these type of off piste routes and avoiding them in deep fresh snow etc probably for many on this forum defeats the object of off piste skiing! Sure I could get kitted out every day but then I may be tempted to push my self imposed boundaries.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Thanks for the useful replies. Yes like Shimmy said, often in lessons instructors take you a bit off piste when there's fresh snow and that feels safe enough - presumably is otherwise they wouldn't, but you also hear about avalanche training, buying all this gear and learning to use it - which makes it all sounds quite risky, clearly if you do that you need a guide or enough experience yourself, so I was wondering if there's off piste (meaning anything off the piste) where's it relatively safe and doesn't need all that stuff and training.
Or putting it simply - is it possible to enjoy fresh powder without much training, equipment or a guide without putting your life (or others) at risk? I'd assume it is but willing to hear from those more knowledgeable.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Pedantica, thanks - very useful.
Something I forgot to add was how realistic is it to hire a guide, without having done full avalanche training first - I'm guessing that needs to booked in advance and takes a day?
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| Quote: |
is it possible to enjoy fresh powder without much training, equipment or a guide without putting your life (or others) at risk?
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I'd say, hmmm, sort of, yes, it is possible... but the lack of training would mean that you probably can't spot what's likely to be safe or not. Although sticking to gradients <25 degrees (with nothing likely to catch you out from above) is going to be a start. Mind you, you wouldn't want too much fresh powder, and it would have to be pretty light.
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| Quote: |
Something I forgot to add was how realistic is it to hire a guide, without having done full avalanche training first - I'm guessing that needs to booked in advance and takes a day?
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Very realistic. Guides generally have zero expectation of their clients' ability to rescue them in the event of an avalanche and take decisions accordingly. The transceiver is mainly for your benefit (or the rescue teams for corpse recovery  )
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| Quote: |
| Alpine climbers almost always carry avalanche kit. |
That's a bit misleading. In my experience it's incorrect as stated.
What a lot of boy scouts.
No you don't, but if you have to ask, then I'd suggest that on piste is probably where you should be. So long as you're aware of the risks of driving to the slopes of course.[/quote]
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| zebedee wrote: |
Or putting it simply - is it possible to enjoy fresh powder without much training, equipment or a guide without putting your life (or others) at risk? I'd assume it is but willing to hear from those more knowledgeable. |
Well....
There are many places where - assuming recent snow - you can ski powder with no avalanche danger. Ie stuff like this (though I don't think you can embed instagram videos?): http://instagram.com/p/y4cBVfTJlp/?modal=true
There are also places right next to a piste where you could be in real danger. Ie here - where someone died last season:
It doesn't have to be that hard to identify where is safe, but you do have to be aware of what's going on around you.
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@clarky999, nice video!!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| zebedee wrote: |
| Or putting it simply - is it possible to enjoy fresh powder without much training, equipment or a guide without putting your life (or others) at risk? I'd assume it is but willing to hear from those more knowledgeable. |
yes - North America - inbounds off piste which is avalanche controlled
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| zebedee wrote: |
Or putting it simply - is it possible to enjoy fresh powder without much training, equipment or a guide without putting your life (or others) at risk? I'd assume it is but willing to hear from those more knowledgeable. |
Well....
There are many places where - assuming recent snow - you can ski powder with no avalanche danger. Ie stuff like this (though I don't think you can embed instagram videos?): http://instagram.com/p/y4cBVfTJlp/?modal=true
There are also places right next to a piste where you could be in real danger. Ie here - where someone died last season:
It doesn't have to be that hard to identify where is safe, but you do have to be aware of what's going on around you. |
That's an interesting picture. Just to show my ignorance why is the area indicated by the red and blue arrows dangerous to ski? I probably wouldn't because it wouldn't pass my first test ie no one else had skied it. But in an effort to learn please explain.
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| zebedee wrote: |
| Is ok to go off-piste without avo kit? |
On the contrary. Yes.
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You know it makes sense.
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@halfhand, the red arrow shows the path the skier took probably. It's dangerous as the path lead into a steeper piece of terrain which has obviously avalanched, you can see the crown by the furthest left arrow. The skier in this case was buried and died. I'd guess the blue line is pointing to the tracks where the majority of people seem to have skied down which may even be a piste?
To sit in my armchair for a second if you look to the left of the crown but before the tracks coming down you can see that there is an obvious wind lip/cornice which probably extended along the where the avalanche was triggered which is a classic sign of wind loading and potential hazard.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@halfhand, @meh, the person wasn't actually skiing at the time - their ski slipped from by the lift and they walked down to get it. The the mini windlip collapsed, and they were killed - in the exact debris in the photo.
I don't know what the blue arrow is - you normally ski down to that lift from out left of the photo (skiers left from the top of the drag lift), and join the lift whilst travelling in the opposite direction of the blue arrow.
I was actually looking for this photo, but stumbled across that one first. In this one (below) I guy with full equipment was buried for 13 mins right next to the piste:
(Photo from Freeride Center Stubai, but I had to dowload it then upload it to Flickr as you can't embed FB photos).
Both Photos from Stubai, two seasons in a row, btw.
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So yeah, you can ski offpiste safely without kit right next to the piste, apart from the bits you can't... So you need to be able to look at the terrain and judge it for yourself.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Here is a detailed look at the avalanche risk for where I do most of my skiing. http://arc.lib.montana.edu/snow-science/objects/ISSW14_paper_P3.04.pdf
There has been a grand total of 3 deaths from avalanches there since 1939. I feel pretty confident in skiing trees and between pistes and indeed ranging out of range of piste markers without imminent fear of death from avalanche, and do so all the time without anything much. I'm much more worried about breaking a leg or smashing myself off a tree than i am about avalanches to be honest. My personal risk profile says that 3 deaths from however many million of skiier days have taken place since 1939 says i can chill out about avalanches risk, and worry instead about other things.
However, i'm dead keen on doing a proper off piste safety course for extending my off piste skills for when i ski the alps, i would be extremely cautious about venturing anywhere off piste in the alps this winter. So whats the point of my post? I guess that I don't think there is any one size fits all for this stuff, there are places the avalanche risk is so small as to be negligible.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@coddlesangers, in risk terms most off-piste skiing has a low mortality rate from avalanche, there have only been 70ish deaths Europe wide so far for the huge number of skiers. It's high for the year but not a giant number to compare against off-piste skier days. The problem is that statistical risk is not a good razor for judging the immediate risk. After all each of those 70ish people was statistically unlikely to be killed but died anyway. As said above the slopes are safe except when they're not and it's being able to make a good judgement about that in the immediate situation to hand that's the key. It's also one of the reasons why local knowledge can be a heuristic trap, lots of areas have common 'safe' places to ski when the danger is high except when they're not and people can make poor judgement calls because they are used to it being generally safe. Then there is the obvious point that lack of deaths doesn't mean a lack of avalanches or injuries.
If you actually read the paper the majority of the tours looked at were in Variable and Complex terrain the definitions of which definitely involve applying knowledge of how to judge avalanche risk to safely navigate. It's not quite the rosy picture looking at one statistic paints it as.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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It's a funny one as people will say don't let the gear make decisions for you but then will say if you don't have the gear don't risk it, and I don't mean that towards anyone in this thread just in general, so what are you to do because as posted above all very good words but you can have all the gear and ski something that looks fairly innocuous and still be buried 5m from the edge of a piste for 13 mins or worse, and I think if anything these 2 pics above show just how difficult it is to judge because neither look particularly troublesome at first glance, so it's always a risk but do you really want to put yourself in a known risk without the best chance of survival?
That all said I have skied of piste without anything plenty of times especially in between slopes and lots of Scottish ski days and will continue to do so
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| Karl Marx wrote: |
| zebedee wrote: |
| Is ok to go off-piste without avo kit? |
On the contrary. Yes. |
We agree then.
(Read the question in the post)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| zebedee wrote: |
| Do you ALWAYS need full airbag, shovels, probes etc to go off-piste? |
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| geeo wrote: |
It's a funny one as people will say don't let the gear make decisions for you but then will say if you don't have the gear don't risk it, and I don't mean that towards anyone in this thread just in general, so what are you to do because as posted above all very good words but you can have all the gear and ski something that looks fairly innocuous and still be buried 5m from the edge of a piste for 13 mins or worse, and I think if anything these 2 pics above show just how difficult it is to judge because neither look particularly troublesome at first glance, so it's always a risk but do you really want to put yourself in a known risk without the best chance of survival?
That all said I have skied of piste without anything plenty of times especially in between slopes and lots of Scottish ski days and will continue to do so |
I think in general people have been hinting that it's knowledge you should take with you. 
The reason you always carry the gear is to mitigate the possible consequences of a poor judgement call. Given you can't in this situation make perfect judgements it is at least a poor decision to ski off piste without the kit to rescue or be rescued given the statistics surrounding companion rescue and survival.
I don't really see the controversy of saying don't ski off piste without the right gear and don't let the presence of that gear unduly influence your decisions of what to ski as you can die and be seriously injured in an avalanche even with it.
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@meh, @clarky999, Ah yes thanks guys. I see the red arrows seem to be following the tracks of the skiers (I was focussing on the red arrows and not the tracks) and that depression is a bit of a give away now you've pointed it out  . Bloody scary. There's lots of tracks below the blue arrow on what does seem to be a piste, which crosses the lift?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@halfhand, those tracks below are from people skiing offpiste to skier's left of the lift, and that's where everyone cuts right to get back onto the piste. The tracks above (by the red arrows) are where I believe rescuers went to help the guy.
I was there the next day, and it was seriously  sobering seeing where someone had died less than 24 hours before.
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| @halfhand, I was there the next day,. |
What lift is that off?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@geeo, the Windachferner drag lift
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I have full kit, practice with it regularly, have been hit by a couple of slides in the past and also have an avi bag. Yet some days I ski locally in forests on my own, on occasion with no kit. I feel very safe doing this but never venture out without reading the forecasts and taking a look at the local conditions regarding snowpack myself.
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| Scarpa wrote: |
| I have full kit, practice with it regularly, have been hit by a couple of slides in the past and also have an avi bag. Yet some days I ski locally in forests on my own, on occasion with no kit. I feel very safe doing this but never venture out without reading the forecasts and taking a look at the local conditions regarding snowpack myself. |
I think what this and other posts demonstrate is that:
Yes you need full avi kit in some circumstances
In those circumstances where you don't need full avi the decision is multi-factorial but ultimately your own?
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You know it makes sense.
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@halfhand, Spot on. And if you are unsure about the conditions then you definitely should be in a well equipped group or hire a guide.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Your decision, however dumb, is always ultimately your own. The Darwin Awards exist to celebrate that fact. 
@halfhand, how do you know what circumstances you do and don't need the kit? Calling it multi-factorial is just a clever way of saying "I don't know" and saying that it's your own choice is just a means of abdicating responsibility to find out.
If you're sure about conditions you should be looking for indicators that it's not okay. If you're not sure about conditions you should be doing the same. If you don't think you're able to make those judgements on the mountain you should hire guide. Guides will make you take the kit. Just take the kit.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@meh, no i dont know, which is why I asked about the picture above but it seems to me to be a combination of personal ability, general knowledge of how and why avis happen, local knowledge of the terrain you plan on skiing . So there's 3 factors to consider, which makes it multi-factorial by my definition. As I stated I'm not a big off pister and when I ever dare venture off then I consider myself to be ultra cautious and I don't necessarily think Darwin comes in to it. I'm happy to show my lack of knowledge by asking those who appear (from reading here) to be more knowledgeable. Always ready to learn from my betters
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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yea I should have added in the
| Quote: |
The Darwin Awards exist to celebrate that fact.
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And bolded the
I'm not having a go at meh far from it just saying in a perfect world you always have your gear but we don't live in that world and sometimes make a judgement call be it crossing the street without the green man or being an amber gambler at traffic lights, these things don't mean we want to further evolution with our stupidity
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@geeo, of course I have but I don't think it was necessarily a clever thing to do. At the same time I'm doing a three day avi course as refresher next month which I do think is a clever thing to do.
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| meh wrote: |
| The problem is that statistical risk is not a good razor for judging the immediate risk. After all each of those 70ish people was statistically unlikely to be killed but died anyway. |
I'm not sure what point you're making. Approximately five people die on the UK's roads each day. Each of those people was statistically unlikely to be killed but died anyway. What conclusion are you inviting us to form?
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@James the Last, its in the very next sentence. To reiterate it's not a case of whether or not you're statistically unlikely to become a casualty that is important its judging how likely the slope you are about to ski is to slide and the potential consequences if it does. Most people trigger the avalanche that kills them so making good decisions about what to ski is paramount.
As an analogy the low chance of dying whilst driving isn't a good reason to not wear a seat-belt.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| meh wrote: |
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As an analogy the low chance of dying whilst driving isn't a good reason to not wear a seat-belt. |
It is a reason to use a car/bus if you happen to need one but a seat belt is not available.
As has happened to me on many occasions in other countries.
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@T Bar, right and should I ever get in the position where I need to ski off piste and have no other option than to do so without avi kit or knowledge on how to assess the conditions I guess I'll have to take a chance too. I'm not sure either of those italicized criteria apply here though.
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FAQ
