 Poster: A snowHead
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Do you ALWAYS need full airbag, shovels, probes etc to go off-piste? Or is there riskier off-piste where you need that and safer off-piste where it's not necessary?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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No
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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If you can't identify where *might* be safe without kit by yourself, yes you do. Plus someone who can identify where's safe, as the kit doesn't guarantee anything.
I wouldn't say an airbag is ever *essential* though; jsut REALLY nice to have.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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clarky999, including airbag!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@zebedee, avalanche safety gear doesn't make anything safer.
If you need to ask the question... 
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@zebedee, people have been skiing for decades without all this safety gear and you never hear a single moan or complaint from anyone who has been caught in an avalanche about wishing they had the kit.
Fill yer boots i say and prove dawrinism.
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No but apparently illegal some places in Italy.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@TTT, yes, Piedmonte at least.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@moffatross, 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Personally I prefer to ski off piste on days when transceivers are not required 
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You know it makes sense.
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I've had lessons with ESF where, being only one or two of us in lessons, the instructor has taken us off piste a little bit. I think the OP has a valid question that deserves non wee wee take answers.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Don't forget your avalanche ball!
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Poster: A snowHead
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In all seriousness I've only done a bit of off piste and not too far from the piste at that or bits between pistes but only if already well tracked or underneath chairlifts. I don't possess any of the off-piste equipment referenced by the OP and I probably won't ever.
The only time I've worn an avi tranceiver was when we hired a guide to take us down the Vallee Blanche and I don't recall receiving any training in its use (it was 13 years ago).
So putting the popcorn down for a minute I'd say it depends.................. If I was thinking of doing something like the pics that BobinCH or Weathercam and others post then yes; all OP kit and expect some training in being able to use it. If I'm going to continue in my little side piste and under chairlift forays then no, no specialist kit.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Shimmy Alcott, when your instructor took you 'off piste a little bit', and if they & you had no plan or provision for self-rescue, the route they took you on would certainly have been safe from avalanche risk. Clearly there are many circumstances when 'off piste' is not going to incur risk of avalanche (as per photo). The stock answer to people who want to starting venturing unguided is to go enjoy some winter walking and/or light ski touring to get a feel for it yourself, and get safety training with instructors, and practice search/dig with buddies. Learn to read and understand bulletins, how they relate to the map, its aspects and its contours. And if you're venturing on a route you're unsure about, have an escape plan, an alternative route or be prepared to retreat (which might involve climbing back uphill). And also avoid skiing with people who think they've got nine lives. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Shimmy Alcott wrote: |
| I've had lessons with ESF where, being only one or two of us in lessons, the instructor has taken us off piste a little bit. I think the OP has a valid question that deserves non wee wee take answers. |
The answer is that there are plenty of places where you can safely ski offpiste without kit, but you have to know enough to be able to identify them - and if you have to ask the question you probably don't...
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Wed 11-02-15 22:03; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Would you f@ck someone who may have an STD without protection?
Darwinism will see you right in the end ....... 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
Would you f@ck someone who may have an STD without protection?
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The human race would come to a pretty quick halt if anyone except two virgins of immaculate conception were only allowed to shag with a condom on.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@PaulC1984,
Yes, but the point is also that just as one can be of very low risk of having an STD one can also be in places off piste at very low risk of avalanches.
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Indeed but it's all about what level of risk you are prepared to take yourself and what level of risk you'd put anyone else in. I'd never ski without safety kit, nor would I ski with anyone who didn't have it, regardless of the avi risk. I've seen far too many instances of slides set off by people just skiing off the side of the piste or in conditions that were supposed to be safe. I don't think for one second my kit makes me take more risks, quite the opposite I fact - it reminds me Mother Nature is a bitch
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@PaulC1984, huh ?  Mother Nature is not a 'bitch'. 'Mother Nature' brings us our snow.
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@moffatross, all bitches have two sides
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| moffatross wrote: |
| @Shimmy Alcott, when your instructor took you 'off piste a little bit', and if they & you had no plan or provision for self-rescue, the route they took you on would certainly have been safe from avalanche risk. Clearly there are many circumstances when 'off piste' is not going to incur risk of avalanche (as per photo). The stock answer to people who want to starting venturing unguided is to go enjoy some winter walking and/or light ski touring to get a feel for it yourself, and get safety training with instructors, and practice search/dig with buddies. Learn to read and understand bulletins, how they relate to the map, its aspects and its contours. And if you're venturing on a route you're unsure about, have an escape plan, an alternative route or be prepared to retreat (which might involve climbing back uphill). And also avoid skiing with people who think they've got nine lives. |
Can't believe this, but hey ho.
I agree with shimmy.
It depends on what the OP meant by "off piste".
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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If you do it alone, sure. If you do it with other people who don't have the gear either, sure. If you get killed because you weren't carrying the gear, that's your problem, though worth explaining to your family you are taking a significantly bigger risk because you weren't prepared to spend 250 quid and carry 5kg of kit.
Of course if you want to ski off piste with me, or anyone else I've been off piste with, you need the gear. I can't see any argument against carrying it, even on days you don't expect to leave the piste.
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| thecramps wrote: |
Can't believe this, but hey ho.
I agree with shimmy.
It depends on what the OP meant by "off piste". |
Which bit, thecramps ?
Are you thinknig that Shimmy Alcott's instructor was negligent because they hadn't equipped him/her with a transceiver/shovel/probe/airbag and/or ensured that he/she was already carrying them and knew how to use them ?
Or that off piste skiers needn't learn some 'mountain craft', take classes, learn to understand risks for themselves or practice search & recovery regularly ?
Or disagreeing with me that 'off piste' can sometimes be without avalanche danger ?
Or that route planning with a map, in conjunction with an understanding of a bulletin isn't important ?
Or that retreat and escape routes shouldn't be considered ?
These are messages I've received from four different trainers at dedicated day classes.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
Or disagreeing with me that 'off piste' can sometimes be without avalanche danger ?
Or that route planning with a map, in conjunction with an understanding of a bulletin isn't important ?
Or that retreat and escape routes shouldn't be considered ?
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There is always a risk, when was the last time you skied and the avalanche risk was 0, last time I did was Hemel, or chillfactore
Yes, route planning, education, and pre determined routes etc are the most important aspects of avalanche safety, prevention is better than a cure. But what happens if you come across another group in the backcountry who require assistance and you have no kit?
What if you are caught in an unpredictable slide triggered by someone else who didn't plan like you did?
We had a 9 person death from a slide a few years back in resort in an off piste area that is normally very safe and skied constantly.The group that became victims was 12 people, and thought they were safe, a group came in above another on a rarely skied access point. They came in on a cornice that collapsed and triggered a slide burying 9 people below them, all 9 never came home. The 9 had no transceivers as they thought the area was safe and didn't know people could ski above where they were!!!!
In answer the OP, the general rule our ski school applies here is if you are more than 10 Meters from a Piste you are required to have full safety kit, Here they insist on Shovel, Probe, Beacon and Airbag! I would consider this a fairly sensible approach in most resorts Now that said this will vary on the piste and its location etc. But as a general rule of thumb its not bad. The simple advice is IF YOU DONT KNOW, DO NOT GO
Personally I think the airbag is a choice thing rather than an essential. I wear one as a resort is 90% off piste and slides happen, plus this time of the year (Holidays) when a lot of people in resort are being ahem silly!!! Its an extra layer of security
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I have only ever been 'off-piste' once and that was with Easiski (an instructor extremely well regarded by SnowHeads). Descending the glacier at Les Deux Alpes, we ducked the rope on the right-hand side and skiied the slope to join to the Signal piste about 3/4 of the way down. At most, we may have been 400 yards from the piste. There was about a foot of fresh snow and none of us had any specialist avi gear AFAIK.
However, we were with an instructor with an intimate knowledge of the area whose judgement, IMV, will have meant we were at virtually zero risk from avalanches.
As stated above, you need to be able to tell if it's safe before you venture off-piste - and that requires experience. My conclusion is that, if you (or someone else in the group) have that experience,there are occasions when you can ski 'off-piste' without the need for all the avi gear.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Fattes13 wrote: |
Yes, route planning, education, and pre determined routes etc are the most important aspects of avalanche safety, prevention is better than a cure. But what happens if you come across another group in the backcountry who require assistance and you have no kit?
What if you are caught in an unpredictable slide triggered by someone else who didn't plan like you did? |
i don't think anyone is saying it's ok to wander into the backcountry with no kit; popping off to the sides of the piste can be OK but you ought to understand why a particular area is safe before doing so
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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And do not forget that 8 people were killed in an avalanche in Lewes, Sussex and IIRC 2 climbers killed in an avalache within the boundaries of Greater Manchester.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Arno wrote: |
| you ought to understand why a particular area is safe |
Exactly, it's up to the skier to understand it. If Shimmy Alcott didn't understand why an area she was led onto was safe, but had asked his/her instructor for an explanation, he/she would have got an answer and at least built themselves a little knowledge. Similarly, easiski with her intimate knowledge of L2A, and who wouldn't do anything to put clients in danger's way, would be delighted to explain her thinking.
@Fattes13, there is never a day when an avalanche risk is '0' because the bulletin scales start at '1'. Clearly if there'd been a bulletin for East Sussex on the day of the Lewes avalanche that johnE mentioned, the risk would have highlighted that long, wind loaded 30-40 degree slopes may release naturally.
Anyway, what I'm reading is anecdotes used as arguments against 'safe' in circumstances when risk was clearly present. What's the point in that ?
Haggis Trap made an observation ... "Personally I prefer to ski off piste on days when transceivers are not required" which was clearly meant to be as cheeky as my picture was. And as I'm sure you know, a common message at safety classes is that it's on 'moderate' days that most people get caught out.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Thu 12-02-15 11:45; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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^ yip - at the end of the day its all "mountain".
the factors which dictate avalanches are slope aspect, altitude and pitch. not proximity to a piste.
the only thing that makes geographic proximity to a piste a little safer is regular skier traffic *usually* consolidates the snow.
if you have made an assessment that the chance of avalanche is close to 0% then skiing without gear is not particularly irresponsible ?
indeed skiing a potentially suspect slope just because you have a beacon / airbag is arguably more irresponsible ?
however : those holiday makers cutting the corners between pistes <etc> are often the least experienced / able to make this call ?
in places like Verbier or Val D'Isere accidents do happen just a few 100m from the piste boundary each winter.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Thu 12-02-15 11:49; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@moffatross, indeed
Have to say that the area described by Red Leon (if it's where I think it is) is somewhere I'd approach with a bit of care. But easiski is up there every day so has a much better idea of how conditions have developed than I would as a tourist. And the area overlooks a piste, so I assume they won't open the piste unless they are comfortable with the stability of the slopes above it
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Have to have ago at this. To stay safe, you need not to be caught in an avalanche. All the avi kit provides some mitigation if you are caught in an avalanche - but does nothing to prevent you being caught in the first place. Avi kit does not make it safe.
Experience, courses, judgement, and avi kit make it safer, but not safe.
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@johnE, mountaineers generally spend less time on open snow slopes - they get their fun from rocky ridges, gullies etc - so the risk is a bit different. also, the amount of ground they cover is miniscule compared with a skier - so a skier can hit multiple avalanche prone slopes in a day but a mountaineer might hit one or two. i'd still wear a beeper though (and have done on the dedicated mountaineering trips I have done)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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^ Alpine climbers almost always carry avalanche kit.
UK climbers tend not too...
Partly because (they claim) that in Scotland it is usually easy enough to access the climbs without crossing open snow fields.
... And higher grade winter ice climbs (grade IV / 50 degrees+) are too steep for avalanches or snow to accumulate.
Generally skiers actively seek out open snow slopes.
Mountaineers / climbers avoid them and focus on ridge lines or steeper pitches <etc>
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Thanks @Arno, and @Haggis_Trap, Yes choice of line is important and you are covereing less ground so have more time to assess it. Keeping weight down is also more important for climbers who generally carry more safety equipment (bivvi bags etc)
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