Legs getting tired too quickly Warning pink pants

A snowHead

For in-resort fitting find a place that handles a variety of skiers; racers, freeriders and tourers etc. A good fitter that concentrates on racers should also be able to provide a great comfort fit as long as you emphasise that that is what you want. These people are specialists though, you may have to book well in advance. The guy I found works with a lot of the podium WC skiers, I fully put my trust in someone that they back.

A snowHead

OHGODMAKEITSTOP!!!

Fer fook's sake, if the OP thinks that sticking his bum out past the tail of his skis is a skiing 'position' then the first thing he needs is the impossibility ofpinker pants and some decent instruction and NOT a mechanical aid to his own idea of what he should look like in a schuss rolling eyes

Sliding is dynamic, with a large range of motion in the legs along with stresses from extreme to negligible, your muscles, if fit and conditioned to the specific activity, will respond with limited fatigue until their fuel reserves are depleted. . . but a picture of yer bum stuck out over your heels will yes . . . confirm that your legs are gonna hurt and bloody quickly too if you think that this is anything to do with skiing.
All the talk of ramp angles, canting, cuff alignment etc. ranging in truth to utter bollux will do nothing until you have a good understanding of the basic physical requirements and for that you need qualified observation, feedback and response . . . add to that better muscle conditions to the sport itself. Yes we can exercise and strength training, that helps enormously, but if you work to achieve a goal that is counter to skiing as a sport you are just gonna get hurt.

Go get some decent instruction from someone like Rob and stop listening to the apres bar micturate circling this wee urinal. THEN decide if you need to get mechanical adjustment to correct a real physiological issue rather than just crappy (as in squat and wipe) styling.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

hmmmm . . . posting whilst mindfooked and grumpy, perhaps not the most temperate of ideas . . . but having spent the last two weeks with the office in the NE of the US and still keeping a 53mph average (I can fit 4 sets of chains in less than 10 min. now and my chains weigh more than a family of 4's luggage allowance (with skis)) perhaps I can justify a bit of mardy Twisted Evil

Designer156, The ski industry goes to great lengths to produce a 'vanilla' product for their punters. Kit that will fit and suit the majority of bell enders on the curve. But then we have us as individuals . . . our posture, strength, fitness . . . our work, our lifestyle . . . the shoes we habitually wear, the number of pillows we use. Our 'average' runs from ramrod straight guardsman to shambling ape in flip-flops. Skiing (and boarding) works when we are able to control when and where a force is placed through our equipment into the snow surface. To do it well requires quite subtle and often gentle input from a body that is essentially relaxed and in control of itself. That rarely comes from personal insight but more often from the interaction with a better skier who can communicate and work with you to achieve the level of relaxed competence to allow you to ski all day without fatigue.

Until you can be assessed in action and you yourself have applied and tested your actual technique any talk of equipment adjustment is just piddle circling the drain.

That's not to say that a visit to a good bootfitter should not be first on the list to ensure that your boots do actually fit properly . . . but grinding here, cutting there and wedging that are secondary to actually attempting a good technique. There are plenty of geriatrics sliding around all day and comming off the hill with enough energy to party and dance all night . . . some of them are snowHeads

wink

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So I'm half way through my week in Meribel. 3 days skiing and 3 mornings of instruction. Been working hard to stand a little more up right and bring the pelvis forward. Also the instruction has focussed maily on weight positioning so very little back seat skiing going on. Up shot is unfortunately still fatigue in the thighs which makes skiing after the two hour lesson hard going. And, something I think I forgot to mention before, very sore calves. This is something I've had every year too.

It feels like typical DOMS (delayed onset muscle soreness) you get after working out a new muscle in the gym. Just to reiterate I'm not a couch potato - lots of varied exercise for the last 4 months - a mixture of strength training, cardio, body weight training, lots of squats and lunges etc.

The more I read from you guys and the more I think about it. The more I think my calves are forcing my knees too far forward forcing more leg bend (tiring the quads) and putting too much pressure of the front of the foot causing the calves to work more than they perhaps should. Especially when I try to straighten up and lift my pelvis, I really feel the calves having to work. I thought the ideal was edit more over the middle of the foot, with maybe a slight bias forward?

Tempted to rip the heel lifts out tomorrow as it seems they might be forcing my weight further forward (although lessening the amount of ankle fkex required).

Have dropped CEM an email, but he's unsurprisingly very busy. Not sure I'll be able to get to him before my next trip in March.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

I'd get advice from someone before removing the heel lifts. I'm pretty sure doing that contributed to me tearing right calf muscle.

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Opted to leave them in. Instead swallowed a decent dose of ibuprofen. That helped significantly. But clearly just a short term solution.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

@Designer156, try the guys at boot lab in meribel, they should be able to flare the cuff of the boot back for you

After all it is free

@CEM, Thanks. I've just emailed them to see if they can fit me in.

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@Designer156, This is all so exciting. Does the winner of this particular bio mechanics analysis competition get your (unwashed) pink pants as a prize?

Well it will make a change from selling them on eBay!

You know it makes sense.

@ben76, I think you offered your sister Doris back on page 2.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

So, some interesting developments today. On @CEM's recommendation I went along to the Boot Lab in Meribel. Saw Tom, I believe. Very knowledgable guy. The place was tiny, but full of people and the two boot fitters were juggling so many customers at the same time it was very impressive.

Tom started by examine my boots (I presume looking for custom footbed etc) and recognised my custom beds from profeet, which was encouraging. He then had me stand in them and agreed that I was too far forward as a result of my large calves. But he was more concerned about the flex (100) he said I was basically bending the boot in half when I tried to lean on the front and that this was one of the major issues - the boot should support me to allow me to rest when needed, but it just flexed too far forward placing more strain on the quads.

His concern was that even by straightening to boot (making the cuff more vertical) the boot is too flexible for a guy of my size (110kg). And I won't be able to put enough force through the boot when skiing. I'm surprised profeet didn't pick this up - they seemed more concerned about about a comfy fit.

However, I'm was keen to see what impact on my endurance straightening the boot would have (I'll worry about the flex later) so he's going to modify them tonight ready for the morning.

I suspect this will help significantly, but that I'll end up shelling out for a stiffer boot later on this year.

Can anyone recommend any stiff (120-130) boots that might accommodate a large (18.5") calf? Tom was struggling to think of many, although he had one in mind (a Hawk??? Maybe).

Looking forward to seeing what tomorrow brings.

A snowHead

so, the answer is either to lose weight or to buy stiffer boots. Or both..... wink

A snowHead

@Designer156, http://strolz.co.uk/

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@pam w, He could always turn to the darkside Shocked

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I would be wary of getting a boot with a very high flex number. Weight is only a small factor in how stiff a boot you need. 100 is plenty for a 5-6 week skier even at 110 kilos because boot has to be flexed with an ankle movement not by throwing weight on it. Also in the first picture there is no way you are too far forward, you are sitting back. In the second picture your stance is very good and it seems boots don't get in the way at all - when boots are wrong this stance is not achievable

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

@Designer156, that makes a lot of sense. Glad you are making progress. It may not feel like it now but at some point you will be glad you sorted this out early in your skiing career. It will free you up to take instruction and make progress. But it is a pain.

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@Designer156, not seen your feet but there is a new hawx manga 130 coming for next season, about as upright as boots come and higher volume than the standard hawx, (equally the standard one might be just fine) you will probably still need the cuff flaring back as well

@never summer, sorry disagree completely about being stiff enough..... 110 kg will crush a 100 flex boot. ankle movement or not the shell needs to support the weight being applied to it

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

One of the most common problem is that people ski in boots too stiff for them not too soft. Yes it's good when a boot can support your weight should you require just to park your shins and drive, but I don't think this is what a 5-6 week skier needs to be concerned too much about. It's more about working the position when you have a good control without over-reliance on boots and putting strain on muscles. His current boots don't prevent OP from being in the position as in photo number 2 so I can't see why he has to change them. If the OP's idea of skiing position is like in photo number 1 then I can't see what a stiffer boot will do to help it. Engaging core to keep straighter may help but a straight and stiff boot??? Anyway he wouldn't be the first person throwing money into new equipment to solve what seems to be a typical early-intermediate skier problem.

After all it is free

@never summer, It is not just about the weight of the skier it is the weight of the skier with the forces generated from skiing a boot with too soft a flex for the skiers weight, ability and skiing style will be crushed just as one that is too stiff will inhibit the skier ability to progress and improve.

I have seen plenty of people skiing in boots way too soft they could not drive the ski all they could do was skid the ski especially as the snow conditions became firmer. Yes I have seen people ski in boots too stiff for their weight, ability and skiing style as well. Some because they have all the money and non of the brain and though a beginner think more expensive is better and/or well the WC skiers use that so thats what I will buy. Some because of poorly trained shop staff.

@never summer, in pic 1 his centre of mass looks as if it is, more or less, over the middle of his boot - the problem is that he has to take a back seat stance to achieve this to compensate for the ankle angle the boot forces him into.

This has been done to death now: He's had a week's worth of lessons to try and correct it, to no avail. Two well respected boot fitters have said that his boots need tweaking to allow a more upright lower leg, and also that they are not stiff enough for a bloke of his size - 110kg is a big bloke. I think that they could be correct with this one.

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Well, what can I say? A revelation! Picked up the boots from The Boot Lab just before lunch and had a completely pain free afternoon of skiing. Felt I could have skied forever. Never before have I managed to ski for so long without having to pull up and rest. Absolutely brilliant. I cannot wait to return in 3 weeks time and not be plagued by fatigue.

Time will tell if the flex is an issue. Tom has added a couple of bolts into the back of the boot too which seems to have stiffened everything up a bit anyway. At least now when having lessons I can concentrate more on technique and less on wondering if I can make it to the bottom of the run.

I'll get some pics up as soon as I can.

Thanks so much to all you have contributed thoughts, ideas, and suggestions.

One thing that was particularly funny/stroke embarrassing was when I went to collect the boots from The Boot Lab this morning and I mentioned to the other boot fitter that Tom had been butchering my boots overnight, a pretty lady also being tended too said "I know you - you're the guy off snow heads". Quite awkward coming face to face with someone you've never met before but has seen you stood in your pink underwear!! Embarassed

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And just for clarity as I can see there is still some debate - photo 1 I thought was the correct ski position because my mass was centred. Photo two, I appreciate (now) looks like a better ski position, but my centre of mass was way forward - all my weight was on my toes which is why I was getting a lot of pain in my calves too. I was actually having to arch my back a little so not to fall forward.

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Glad you managed to get it sorted at last, at least before the boys' ski holiday anyway.

I believe that @gorilla and I have won the internet. Thank you and goodnight. wink

Designer156, excellent, a good result!

Though, don't be surprised if this thread continues for another page or two while people continue to rehash the debate about whether it's your boots or technique or biomechanics wink

You know it makes sense.

Lol, I won't be surprised. I'm sure all three have a big part to play, but for me at least, I had to resolve the boot angle to give me the opportunity to improve my technique. I'm sure I would have progressed much further with my lessons this week if I had adjusted the boots beforehand.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

getting back to the original question. A useful exercise to help get the old corpse to use the glutes rather than the quad is the Cook Hip Lift

http://youtube.com/v/aAeBTkzpXDs

A snowHead

@ben76, I got the dorsiflexion thing wrong. I thought he was probably gping to struggle to pressure the cuff rather than bending the thing in half. So I lose points for that.

@Designer156, I'm really pleased you got it sorted out. Now take some lessons.

A snowHead

Here'a couple of pics of the modified boots:

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Designer156, the new pics are meaningless without context. We need to see pics of you wearing them and the pink pants for true comparison to the original pics Toofy Grin

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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Subtle difference in the shape of the boot - about 7 degrees more vertical - but it feels massive. The right hand image is with my weight centred. To stand like that before my weight was over my toes.

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great work.

I'm about the same weight as you, but I'm 190 cms. I have been in the hawx 120 for the past few years, and they have been great. Although, as I am skiing alot these days and have improved greatly the past 2 seasons, I'm noticing that I can seriously flex them now....so maybe a stiffer boot in a season or 2's time for me.

I have added a world cup booster strap, and that has seriously tightened things up. If you are happy with the boots now, I would consider adding a booster strap. the difference was immediate for me.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

What is a booster strap? An extra Velcro strap?

After all it is free

A beefier strap to replace your existing one.

http://boosterstrap.com/

Hi, I've not read the whole thread - glad you are happier with the boots now.

In general, I agree with some of the posters at the beginning... I reckon you are more back seat skiing (ankles underflexed, knees overflexed so bum sticks out backwards, then body tilted forward to maintain balance; essentially broken in the middle with no core stability) than you think. The later pictures with the black shorts are better, though I wonder if you are still a bit bent in the middle.

I would get some tuition with good video analysis. It really is amazing what this adds.

Sorry if this has been said before - just call me Jonny-come-lately if you like Shocked

Have fun!

C

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@Designer156, stoopid question... are you still wearing the same socks?

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Legs getting tired too quickly Warning pink pants

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Help!!

Legs getting tired too quickly **Warning pink pants**

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Legs getting tired too quickly Warning pink pants