 Poster: A snowHead
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| davidof wrote: |
| As for MS persuading people to buy helmets, I can't think of a worse example. |
Yes, and this is where analysis of the tragedy to Michael Schumacher has hardly begun:
- Was a helmet-mounted GoPro a factor?
- Where was the impact damage to his helmet?
- Is it conceivable that he took a risk because he was wearing a helmet? (probably very hard to determine)
- Is it conceivable that the shell of the helmet set up reverberation into his skull, causing the brain damage?
- Is it conceivable that the impact was glancing, with increased volume of the helmeted head (via the helmet shell) being instrumental?
The last point is related to helmeted heads being hit by chairlift safety bars, when normally there would be no impact.
Has anyone really analysed this accident fully?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
- Is it conceivable that the shell of the helmet set up reverberation into his skull, causing the brain damage?
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Sorry, what?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Well OK, if you don't like that question ...
- What exactly did Michael Schumacher's helmet save him from?
- Is it conceivable that he'd currently be in full recovery or not injured?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| Quote: |
- Is it conceivable that the shell of the helmet set up reverberation into his skull, causing the brain damage?
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Sorry, what? |
Can't hear you. Too much reverb from my helmet. I do have it turned up to 11 though.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
- Is it conceivable that the shell of the helmet set up reverberation into his skull, causing the brain damage?
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Is this what happened to you?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
Well OK, if you don't like that question ...
- What exactly did Michael Schumacher's helmet save him from?
- Is it conceivable that he'd currently be in full recovery or not injured or dead? |
FIFY
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Well ... mock as you will ... but sooner or later the Ski Helmet Club is going to have to come up with explanations as to why serious head injuries aren't declining, while helmet sales are booming.
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@Comedy Goldsmith, Your source? Where are the numbers, real numbers from reliable sources with no axe to grind and not trash from the red tops or the Daily fail, real stats that are per person skiing based, not just totals. You keep spouting this stuff but whats it based on?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| Well ... mock as you will ... but sooner or later the Ski Helmet Club is going to have to come up with explanations as to why serious head injuries aren't declining, while helmet sales are booming. |
Why do I need to explain it? Why can't I just wear a helmet because I prefer to?
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| thecramps wrote: |
| @Comedy Goldsmith, Your source? Where are the numbers, real numbers from reliable sources with no axe to grind and not trash from the red tops or the Daily fail, real stats that are per person skiing based, not just totals. You keep spouting this stuff but whats it based on? |
Fair question. I always first refer these questions to the site (ski-injury.com) of Dr Mike Langran, Cairngorm ski patroller and doctor, who wears a helmet but provides impartial information.
http://ski-injury.com/specific-injuries/head
So ... the two key issues ...
1. The incidence of serious head injuries while skiing
Here are Dr Mike Langran's words, concerning the incidence of a serious head injury while skiing:
| Quote: |
| If you look at the incidence of head injuries on the slopes, most studies show that they constitute about 10-20% of all injuries. Given that overall a ski or snowboard injury occurs once every 300 days or so, we can extrapolate and say that for every 10,000 people on the slopes on any particular day, no more than three people will sustain a head injury requiring medical attention. Fortunately, out of all these people with head injuries, the majority (90%) of the injuries are minor - i.e. cuts, abrasions, and minor bumps. That leaves the remaining 10% having what's known in the business as a Potentially Serious Head Injury - hereafter known as a PSHI. This class of injury includes all episodes of loss of unconsciousness, (suspected) skull fractures, bleeds in and around the brain as well as major open head wounds (including penetrating injuries). |
In other words, 10% of 10%-20% - i.e. 1% to 2% - of all ski injuries comprise 'potentially serious head injuries'. And you have to ski for approximately 33,000 days - if I've interpreted the data above correctly - to experience one of these serious head injuries.
There's then the issue of how effective the helmet is going to be in protecting you from that '1 in 33,000' risk on any particular day.
2. The incidence of serious head injuries vis-a-vis increased helmet sales
There was an influential article on this in The New York Times one year ago ...
Ski Helmet Use Isn’t Reducing Brain Injuries
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/01/sports/on-slopes-rise-in-helmet-use-but-no-decline-in-brain-injuries.html?_r=0
| Quote: |
The fact that Michael Schumacher was wearing a helmet when he sustained a life-threatening head injury while skiing in France on Sunday probably did not come as a surprise to experts who have charted the increasing presence of helmets on slopes and halfpipes in recent years. The fact that the helmet did not prevent Schumacher’s injury probably did not surprise them, either ...
... But growing evidence indicates that helmets do not prevent some more serious injuries, like the tearing of delicate brain tissue, said Jasper Shealy, a professor emeritus at Rochester Institute of Technology.
Shealy, who has been studying snow-sports-related injuries at Sugarbush resort in Vermont for more than 30 years, said that could be because those injuries typically involve a rotational component that today’s helmets cannot mitigate. He said his research had not found any decline in what he called P.S.H.I.’s, for potentially serious head injuries, a classification that includes concussion, skull fracture, closed head injury, traumatic brain injury and death by head injury.
In fact, some studies indicate that the number of snow-sports-related head injuries has increased. |
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Abstract Taken from "Snow-sport helmets: injury prevention, rate of wearers and recommendations", publisher: bfu - Swiss Council for Accident Prevention, May 2014.
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On the one hand, the protective effect of a snow-sport helmet involves dampening the impact force on the head, on the other penetration resistance against objects. The helmet reduces the risk of injury to the skull and the parts of the head surrounded by the helmet. It is important that the helmet fits as snugly as comfort allows and that the chin straps are always tightly fastened. Scientific studies prove that depending on the design of the study, a snow-sport helmet has a protective effect of 15 to 60 %. On the basis of these studies, it is impossible to state whether primarily minor or serious injuries can be prevented.
However, it can be assumed that wearing a helmet does not present an injury risk to other parts of the body (e.g. neck). It is often postulated that protective articles can lead to a change in behaviour because of a heightened sense of safety. Snow-sport participants can be lulled into a false sense of safety because of wearing a helmet and thus take more risks. Based on analyses of various studies, it can be stated that wearing a helmet has very little influence on risk behaviour and that risk compensation is unable to outweigh the protective effect of a snow-sport helmet. |
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Richard_Sideways, thanks for that. Perhaps something's been lost in translation, but two aspects of that paragraph don't seem to make sense ...
| Quote: |
| a snow-sport helmet has a protective effect of 15 to 60 % |
What's that a percentage of? What does it mean? Seems very loose language for a scientific study.
| Quote: |
| Snow-sport participants can be lulled into a false sense of safety because of wearing a helmet and thus take more risks. Based on analyses of various studies, it can be stated that wearing a helmet has very little influence on risk behaviour and that risk compensation is unable to outweigh the protective effect of a snow-sport helmet. |
Those two sentences appear to be directly self-contradictory.
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@Comedy Goldsmith, The NY times article clearly implies that skiing behaviours (more people free skiing and using snow parks, etc) have changed considerably in the last decade or so, thus adding to casualties and makes no mention of how many more skiers there are now, so the stats shown are just numbers, with no comparison possible. They are in essence meaningless with regard your argument without being given as a ratio or percentage of total skiers and boarders.
In it's essence, while you can cherry pick exerts to suit your argument, I found the article indicated my choice to wear a helmet was better. I have no illusion that it will save me in all circumstances, but I never did have.
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You know it makes sense.
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@thecramps, I've never disrespected individual skiers' decisions to buy and wear helmets. What I find totally unacceptable is the industry-led deception of skiers by the helmet industry and those willing to act for it.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| clarky999 wrote: |
| Quote: |
- Is it conceivable that the shell of the helmet set up reverberation into his skull, causing the brain damage?
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Sorry, what? |
Can't hear you. Too much reverb from my helmet. I do have it turned up to 11 though. |
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Comedy Goldsmith, The way you put forward your views imply that I believe everything I read and am unable to make reasoned judgements of my own. I would be against compelling people to wear helmets, but after that, just what is your problem?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@halfhand, but it says it is only 10% of those 3 in 10,000 head injuries which are anything more than cuts and bumps, ie 1 in 33,000
I think ...
I may have been one of those three when learning to snowboard, trying to go at my skiing speed, and caught an edge. No piste patrol or other intervention necessary*, but spent the afternoon lying down in a dark room when the obligatory tweeting birds circling. Not something I want to repeat, so now enjoy the warmth and comfort of a helmet.
* Of course, as a result I wont appear in any statistics either...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Good Link, thanks! 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Snow-sport participants can be lulled into a false sense of safety because of wearing a helmet and thus take more risks. Based on analyses of various studies, it can be stated that wearing a helmet has very little influence on risk behaviour and that risk compensation is unable to outweigh the protective effect of a snow-sport helmet. |
Those two sentences appear to be directly self-contradictory. |
Not if you include the sentence before the first you quoted (at least how I read it).
The first sentence in your quote jsut clarifies the one preceeding it in the full text. The second states that it's cowdoo. Which it is: you'd have to be monumentally stupid to gain any sense of invincibility when you put a helmet on; it's not like they feel as if you've just donned a full-body forcefield!
The only thing that slightly iritates me about the 'helmet industry' is the certification standards and tests, which are very low and all but useless. There are plenty of helmets out there I really think would have almost no benefit in an accident, then there are some (Sweet Protection, POC) that I'm quite confident (and know, in the case of Sweet) are a very good thing to have between your head and a rock.
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Helmets are more comfortable than a beanie. They adapt to a wider range of temperatures than a beanie. They don't mist up your goggles like a beanie does. They last longer than a beanie. They look cooler than a beanie. Snow doesn't stick to a helmet when you face-plant in powder or go out in a blizzard. Helmets don't need to be dried out at lunchtime like a beanies does. Helmets cost scarcely more than a beanie unless you buy a big brand name in an expensive resort boutique. Best of all, helmets give you a rush of pure malicious pleasure when you realise just how upset a bunch of boring old farts become when they see you wearing one.
There is a vanishingly small chance that wearing a helmet might save your life. But it really, really isn't the reason that I or most people wear one.
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| Jonny Jones wrote: |
| There is a vanishingly small chance that wearing a helmet might save your life. But it really, really isn't the reason that I or most people wear one. |
Well said. I'm fairly sure it does me no harm to wear a helmet, and I agree with all of your reasons for wearing one. Quite why it's labelled as "a shame" that some people choose to wear a helmet is beyond me. But there we go. Most reasonable people can accept both sides of the decision to wear one or not.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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All of the above, plus...Helmets also have a secure strap, ensuring they don't fly off your head when travelling fast or on a windy day.
The instinctive movements caused by losing your hat at speed can be enough to cause a wipeout, and of course the long walk of shame back up the hill to retreive the aforementioned headgear. Or worse, having to gratefully accept the retrieval of the troblesome hat from some grinning, helmet-clad snowboarder.
Why would anyone not wear a helmet?
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| Jonny Jones wrote: |
Helmets are more comfortable than a beanie. They adapt to a wider range of temperatures than a beanie. They don't mist up your goggles like a beanie does. They last longer than a beanie. They look cooler than a beanie. Snow doesn't stick to a helmet when you face-plant in powder or go out in a blizzard. Helmets don't need to be dried out at lunchtime like a beanies does. Helmets cost scarcely more than a beanie unless you buy a big brand name in an expensive resort boutique. Best of all, helmets give you a rush of pure malicious pleasure when you realise just how upset a bunch of boring old farts become when they see you wearing one.
There is a vanishingly small chance that wearing a helmet might save your life. But it really, really isn't the reason that I or most people wear one. |
Bought my last and current beanie in les arcs in 2007 for €12, still going strong. Never come off my head whilst skiing and if it's too warm i can take it off and never been cold enough too feel the need for that around warmth i might get with a helmet. Don't have a problem with helmets, but struggle with goggles. Absolutely a helmet might one day save me from a severe headache or worse. Both my children and Mrs Ansta1 wear them now, but I choose not to, mainly because I don't get on with goggles. I don't give a stuff if anyone thinks they look cooler with a helmet or without one for now it's my choice.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Comedy Goldsmith Your links/evidence seem to be all in terms of 'serious head injury' (i.e comas etc.) but what are the statistics for helmets reducing instances of concussion, cuts and bumps?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I wear sunglasses with my (Lidl) helmet because I'm not keen on goggles unless the weather is really bad. So I don't like goggles isn't necessarily a valid argument.
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@tarrantd, sunglasses with a helmet?!
Yesterday I reached out to you with the Sotonian branch of comradeship, but I may have to retract it in light of such revelations 
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You know it makes sense.
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@ansta1, my helmet has never been so warm that I've needed to take it off - even on South facing slopes at Easter. If necessary, I simply open the vents.
As for glasses vs goggles - I can understand why someone might prefer sunnies on a warm bright day, but is it really possible to ski without goggles in heavy snow, at temperatures below -10C or in strong wind? I moved on from sunnies 15 years ago during a numbingly-cold mid January trip to Breckenridge when the mountain was literally unskiable with European style ski gear. Of course, if you prefer to head for a cafe on days like that, it really doesn't matter what you wear on your eyes.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@tarrantd, @Dav, I think we can make the helmet and sunnies look work. Be strong, my friends.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I wear Uvex Sunnies and Helmet together. Can't see an issue wih it myself.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Arctic Roll, Ah yes perhaps I read it wrongly (was in a rush, my excuse). The Hobbit was very good BTW. Plenty of helmets on show. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| tarrantd wrote: |
| (Lidl) helmet |
Can't think of a more convincing lid brand
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I can't see how a helmet can be more comfortable than a beanie ???
I have never been cold when wearing a beanie, but I have been too hot when wearing a helmet.
I have never hit my (6' 3") head on a chair lift/gondola but I have several times hit my helmet on one, including terminal damage (helmet not head).
I don't think that helmets cause problems with peripheral vision, but freely admit that goggles might.
Finally, I have skied for the last 2-3 seasons with goggles and a (Lidl) helmet for 2 reasons:
A) Mainly because I prefer my children to wear a helmet too even though I haven't seen any compelling evidence as to why I feel that way. Anybody who has seen junior ski in trees might understand what I mean 
B) I can't think of a good reason not to, and Mrs M nags a lot.
3) Much as I used to enjoy skiing in sunnies, goggles are actually better.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| musher wrote: |
I can't see how a helmet can be more comfortable than a beanie ???
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Beanies itch. They grab hold of your hair and hold it in uncomfortable positions. They either cover your ears and stop you hearing or they leave your ears cold. When I wear a beanie to the football, I rip the wretched thing off as soon as I can. When I visit a cafe wearing my bike helmet, I often forget to take it off, it's so comfortable.
I really, really hate beanies.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
This thread is all about the fact that Mr Goldbore doesn't want to wear a helmet. Rather than just not wearing one and going about his life like a normal person, he seems to feel the need to convert everyone else to his own point of view. He is a very strange man. |
Funny how you read every word of every forum thread that you then denounce as a "bore".
You are an utterly ridiculous person who only wears a helmet as protection from being bopped over the head with a copy of Le Dauphiné libéré - just one source of decent journalism ... as is this thread.
The Michael Schumacher accident - tragic as it is to himself, his family, friends and his entire fanbase - is a pivotal one. We know hardly anything about the effectiveness of his helmet in relation to his brain damage, whether wearing one may have accentuated his risk-taking, or whether the outer design (and presence of GoPro?) had anything to do with this.
Why don't you talk about that ... instead of all the personal crap?
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@Comedy Goldsmith, Probably because you insist on making things personal by describing someone as "utterly ridiculous". Pot, Kettle, Black.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
You are an utterly ridiculous person
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The only ridiculous people are those that are preaching to others that they should / should not be wearing a helmet,
The risk of head injury whilst skiing is relatively low but some aspects of snowsport such as snowboarding, parks, jumps, being small etc increase the risk of head impact and wearing a helmet is more useful in these circumstances.
The risk of head impact is, never the less, always there and if you do hit your head then a helmet is likely to reduce the consequences and if you do not find discomfort or inconvenience in wearing a helmet, then it makes sense to wear one.
I absolutely hated skiing with a helmet on, so choose not to wear one, I have survived 28 years of skiing with no head injuries by luck or good judgement, so consider the risks to be lower than the dislike of wearing a helmet. I've never worn a "Beanie" either and would probably find one as irritating as a helmet.
The "You must wear a helmet" camp do annoy and worry me if they get their way and helmets become compulsory, I think it is the threat of mandatory helmets that causes so much passion in the helmet debate.
| Quote: |
Why would anyone not wear a helmet?
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It's attitudes like this that are the most annoying, from people that cannot accept that others do not think the same way as they do, rather like saying "I love tomatoes, everyone should eat them"
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I love tomatoes, everyone should eat them.
As for helmets make your own choice i say.
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FAQ
