 Poster: A snowHead
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@Jonpim, Is that bloke in red at the head of the line a ski instructor or a childminder?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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He used to be a rat-catcher in Hamelin and part-time musician.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| TTT wrote: |
| Generally though there is too much the customer knows best these days. The dilemma for most instructors is giving customers what they want or what they actually need to improve. Customers don't know best. How could they otherwise they would not be customers. Improving skiing is all about making changes and adapting. |
You had better not end up instructing me old boy. I bloody well do know best. If you are not up to teaching me what I want to learn you can go back to sitting on the bench and someone better can take your place.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| admin wrote: |
Indi ski schools must deliver at least a half decent service to survive. ESF schools deliver a decent service if they choose to. |
Interesting that following the hosting fallout the TOs all seem to be backing non-ESF schools. Wondering if that will affect business, whether the standards need to be as high to get the customers in, or whether some deal has been done based on profit for the TO...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I think that is to stick it to esf as many were publicly pro the clampdown on hosting, and the tos don't want them to show an uptick in lessons as a result
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@Super Chap Great Bloke, don't worry I only do requests. On what basis do you know better than an instructor? I will only ever have a fraction of the knowledge, skills and experience of my instructors. The notion of me telling them what is best for me is utterly laughable. Personally, I'm not so arrogant to think I know better than my instructors. Yes they always ask the question for forms sake and then we both ignore it and they do what is best for me: Get a good experienced instructor and don't question other than to clarify your understanding and just get on with it is the best way otherwise you block your own learning process. A good instructor can very quickly assess where you are at, what you can and cant do, what you need to work on and the best way of achieving that. In truth a lot of people say they want to get better but in reality they just want to do there own thing and are not willing to learn.
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| TTT wrote: |
| @Super Chap Great Bloke, don't worry I only do requests. On what basis do you know better than an instructor? |
Well anyone has X years of living with themself knows how they do and don't learn best, whether they want to hear lots of technical chat or just be shown what to do, knows what their own motivations are re skiing, knows whether they like drills or learning on the fly, whether skiing that black run is the aspiration for the week over nailing a beautiful carve on a blue. An instructor has to work all that out which in a large group, who may not be all articulating this, probably doesn't happen.
I think the "instructor knows best" model is the reason that there are many poor ESF experiences - it's pretty easy giving a "follow me " lesson - simply a matter of being able to count to 12 or 24 or whatever and occasionally shout out a general tip like Bend Ze Kneez. At the other extreme the American positive reinforcement "guest experience is paramount" model where every run is "awesome" is also tiresome. A lot of BASI instructors and the more customer focused indies seem to realise that there is a happy medium and that pace, cadence, reflection and consolidation are all parts of the learning experience.
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I had absolutely no concept or understanding of how I learnt best until I did some instructing and I think that goes for most instructees. I've seen plenty of very good skiers come out of the French system so the problem is actually with the customer who does not understand the learning process and thinks they know best based on no knowledge or understanding. The problem may well be that instructors don't spend enough time educating customers about the learning process. But one of the best pieces of advice I got was to just do what the instructor says rather than analysing the process and assessing the instructor. Good instructions depends on a receptive instructee more than the instructor. The instructor can't ski for me. I have to do it so ultimately it is down to me. People just like something else to blame and sometimes that is the instructor when in reality the problem is the instructee.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Or maybe people learn in different ways? 
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@Ms Panda: As Admin said, not every ESF is the same, and in Tignes there are 2. ESF lac and ESF Val Claret are two different schools, with different number of clients in one group ( groups in Le Lac are smaller) There is no such thing as "The ESF"
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@rade, there is such a thing as "The ESF" otherwise what is to stop me setting up a business in Tignes called ESF with nice red jackets and instructors pootling around the mountain? I am quite sure that somewhere there is someone in charge of the thing, either selling the right to use the name, or controlling things centrally somehow. If they chose to put rules in place, like max group sizes, some control over what local entities chose to do, then we might see a new and improved ESF in time. Perhaps with the TO standoff and potential harm to business we might see this happen to try and retain some of the customers they have now.
I quite agree that not every ESF is the same though.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Mistress Panda wrote: |
I quite agree that not every ESF is the same though. |
...but some are more different than others 
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I know an awful lot about the field I work in. Does that make me qualified to instruct in it? Absolutely not. The problem is that many ESF instructors are like me except they are actually teaching people for money. Not a few have no concept of how people ought to be taught. Why do you think it takes so long to get any decent teaching qualification. Until the primary qualification to be able to teach skiing is how to teach and not being able to achieve some pointless racing time that will never change.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@fullenglish, well you did have me worried i might be about to get an writ from ESF claiming denigration.
However, on close inspection i reckon i'm safe after all.
All those kids are wearing a Club Med vest.
But the chap at the front is definitely La Plagne ESF:
So you are right: he is essentially just acting as a Child Minder - can't be any real tuition going on.
But i bet their parents think their kids are on Ski School, not a kindergarten.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Jonpim, I can see why people would treat it as such. Correct me if I'm wrong but I hear a week's childminding can easily be 700 Euros+. A week of ESF 9-4.30 is less than 500.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I've never had any really bad feedback from anyone about ESF at Val Thorens, I still feel from rugby playing experience that the best sportspeople make the best coaches. Pretty nearly every top level rugby team is coached by someone who played at the highest level of the game. Just because someone is good at something doesn't mean they can't teach it properly whereas the other does apply.
If you look at the French success in alpine skiing then ESF teaching can't be that bad as most of the French competitors have gone through the system.
Given a choice between a brit and french instructor, I would go for the French.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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There's a difference between coach and instructor though. A top level team is gonna have players who just need some tweaks, not major instruction.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| martinm wrote: |
| There's a difference between coach and instructor though. A top level team is gonna have players who just need some tweaks, not major instruction. |
Some of the people I played with barely knew which way to run.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| emwmarine wrote: |
| Some of the people I played with barely knew which way to run. |
Wot - in a top team ? 
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@martinm,
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@martinm, every side has got two props 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| TTT wrote: |
| People just like something else to blame ... |
That's pretty much true in every aspect of life. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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We booked a training piste in VT through a fully accredited local French ski school, where a couple of fully qualified, Carte Prof carrying Brit instructors were running some race training. Two ESF instructors turned up and, on the basis that our guys were not ESF, declared they should leave. When they said the slope was booked and their presence was justified, they were spat at and threatened with violence. I assure you, I am not exaggerating.
The seriousness of the incident was such that the ski school, we were working with, hired an official legal observer to be present at our race the following day. It turned out there had been similar behaviour throughout the season despite notification and complaint having been made to the ESF head.
| emwmarine wrote: |
| I've never had any really bad feedback from anyone about ESF at Val Thorens |
Well there, now you have.
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| Given a choice between a brit and french instructor, I would go for the French. |
I've had good experiences with both but while I've been occasionally disappointed with Brit instructors, I've only ever been truly outraged by French ones so, on my personal experience I would tend to default in the other direction.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Although to be fair @admin, I think you are passing feedback on their interesting negotiating skills rather than their coaching ability. Of course, the two might be linked though.
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Saying the ESF is bad because of some instructors is about as valid as saying that all British skiers are clueless because some think they know better than instructors with many years of training and experience; and some ddon't know enough to understand the relevance of race training to the level of a decent club skier as part of that training. It has about as much logically validity as a daily mail opinion piece. None. This message board sometimes says a lot more about the ignorance and arrogance of some Brit skiers than it ddoes about the ESF. 
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You know it makes sense.
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@TTT, true what you say, but it is the way we work. So, the whole NHS, or this hospital is rotten because of one doctor/nurse/incident. All politicians are crooks/corrupt/stupid because of one individual. This message board is full of jokers . . . and so on.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@dsoutar,
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the primary qualification to be able to teach skiing is how to teach and not being able to achieve some pointless racing time
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I think you'll find that the 5 years spent training isn't all spent race training...
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Jonpim, Indeed. the human brain has limited processing power so peoples' analysis focuses on the most recent and nearest experiences and humans have a natural preference for people similar to them. The Daily Mail for instance knows this full well and the business model is based on pandering to peoples' ignorance and prejudicies. There is plenty of evidence of these cognitive perception limitations on this message board of people only assessing the world through the limited perception of a Brit holiday skier..
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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There is a lot of similarity in reading the Daily Fail and some people's postings on here.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| TTT wrote: |
| @Jonpim, Indeed. the human brain has limited processing power so peoples' analysis focuses on the most recent and nearest experiences and humans have a natural preference for people similar to them. The Daily Mail for instance knows this full well and the business model is based on pandering to peoples' ignorance and prejudicies. There is plenty of evidence of these cognitive perception limitations on this message board of people only assessing the world through the limited perception of a Brit holiday skier.. |
I think this also sums up your recent posts here on 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Indeed some may be offering an alternative perspective to the narrow populist perspective some are comfortable with. Just like skiing people need to be taken out of their comfort zone to change and progress. A bit of cognitive dissonance is good for those willing to learn.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@admin, is right in that each local ESF is totally independent. The ESF is by far the largest network of ski schools in France with about 17 000 instructors in 250 resorts. There is however a charter that each local ESF has to follow. Like everywhere else where you find that number of people there are some excellent ones, some good ones, some average ones, some poor ones and some very poor ones. Our experience, based on the feedback from our clients is very positive overall. Given the number of lessons the ESF ski schools provide every season it is of course always possible to find a bad example but one needs to ask is it truly representative or just a one off. Clearly when you have a ski school that only employs 5 instructors you may not get quite as much feedback, good or bad.
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Interesting thread ... First of - I'm neither French nor British and was on the esf bashing camp without having actualy used thier services prior to my "opinion"... The two times I used thier services I was very happy with it. The other "incumbent" ski school I was not happy with was in Austria/Ischgl ... I used BASS, TDC, Ski Marmelade services and was very happy so far. So I too had a negative prejudice towrds the esf, but in both my direct experiences (and in a couple of my friends' when we were on the same trip) were so far positive. Would I use it again? I would, but I would certainly check or seek advice about specific instructors - I did so before going to St Foy last year and it worked great. 
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@dsoutar "Until the primary qualification to be able to teach ... is [knowing] how to teach and not being able to achieve some pointless racing time that will never change."
Agreed.
That is a prerequisite of any teacher and without it, unless a teacher has an inate ability to teach, the teaching is likely to be relatively ineffective. We recognise this in other professions, what makes the ESF consider it to be an exception? Now there's a puzzle. Maybe.
PS I've used ESF with both good and bad experiences. Not surprisingly really given the above.
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The qualification required to work as a ski instructor in France is a ski teacher qualification. The racing to a reasonable standard is just one component of that. It is completely ingenuous to suggest otherwise. Of course just like any teaching qualification you will get some good and bad teachers. The same goes for brit teachers whose teaching qualification to teach in France is based on the French teaching qualification so presumably some are suggesting that all brit ski teachers also working in France are also useless. The argument is not logical so you have to question the rela underlying reasons for these perspectives.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| TTT wrote: |
| The Daily Mail for instance knows this full well and the business model is based on pandering to peoples' ignorance and prejudicies. There is plenty of evidence of these cognitive perception limitations on this message board of people only assessing the world through the limited perception of a Brit holiday skier.. |
You didn't manage to get a sideways shot in about UKIP at the same time, you're slipping!
I know this might come as a shock to you but the target audience of the ESF is who you so disparagingly describe as the "Brit holiday skier" of "limited perception".
Re: "ingenuous" I think you instead probably mean "disingenuous" otherwise your post would not adequately carry the negative sentiment you evidently wish to convey.
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I like to give some daily mail readers some credit even if they are a national joke.
Yep I agree brit skiers need more education - I'm trying. The ET has a time allowance of 18pc for men and 24pc for women. A decent club skier would be withing about 10pc. So the criticism seems to be you need to be a decent club skier to be an instructor in France is not credible.
Thanks for the typo correction.
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FAQ
