Are ESF really that bad?

A snowHead

Hi everyone,

We are booked (20 of us) to go to a chalet in villard reculus (bottom of alpe d'huez) for new year week. Hubby and I have a just 3 and just 5 year old. We had booked a nanny for mornings. Our plan was that we would ski in the mornings then hubby would take the 5 yr old out for private lessons/ practice while I played/ maybe did a wee bit of skiing with the little one...but the nanny has cancelled as she can't find accommodation.

We are now having to rethink - don't think there is much chance of getting a part time nanny at this stage. The esf in villard reculus is very close to the chalet and could take the little one in piou piou and the older one in lessons from 9-12 each day. I'm just a bit nervous - I'm a product of ESF myself and remember trailing around behind a group of adults virtually ignored by my instructor for a week... My 3 yr old is continent and if suitably dehydrated probably won't need the toilet 9-12 but if she does there is no way she would manage in and out of her salopettes without help. The 5 yr old has been having dry slope lessons and loves them but is a sensitive soul and I'm scared ESF won't be nice to her!

Does anybody have experience with ESF for little ones and particularly in villard reculus? The much nicer sounding easiski is on the far side if the resort a chair lift and a blue run away.....

A snowHead

@snowshoe, just quickly first of all....have you tried http://www.snowangelnannies.co.uk/resorts/alpe-dhuez/ ?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Thank you but yes - they would only do full days which are too expensive and also we do want to spend some time with the brats!!

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Have you considered private lessons with ESF for your children - then if they do need some TLC the instructor will have the time?

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Here is my view on things. Piou Piou normally have toilets really nearby so not an issue. Your eldest if happy with lots of different folk - no worries particularly if you explain he is in France and not at home. Remember this is a learning situation kids and parents both will stress put them in ski school and leave just like real school - better for all of you !

After all it is free

I think they are ok despite what is posted by snowheads contingent. The Feench success in alpine sports is better than ours and most will have gone through the ESF system.

Our grandkids (aged 6 and 5) had their first lessons this year with ESF in La Rosiere. They were in the play area (piou piou) using the magic carpets and skiing into inflatables etc, and then on the adjacent nursery slope. Have to say that ESF were really good with them. 2.5 hour lessons for 6 days - no toilets needed. Definitely agree that parents should make themselves scarce while the lessons are on. My daughter and her husband turned up part way through their last lesson and thereafter it was just a waste of time with the kids playing up as their parents were watching.

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No experience of piou piou but I'd be wary... last year in Vaujany (granted it was half term) I watched as one ESF instructor attempted to take 40 - I kid you not- 40 kids up in the bubble- with skis. All the parents had dropped off at the bottom as instructed and the other instructors were apparently at the top! There was chaos and eventually they got the woman who worked in the office to come and help. My kids are older so it was ok but not a great start to a week of lessons they didn't enjoy at all. There was 20 in their group and when I complained they said they would be split with another instructor but it didn't really happen.
That said other people have had good experiences with ESF, you could be lucky. Why not book a couple of days and then add a few days if its good? You say there are 20 in your chalet- I would be tempted to send a round robin email begging a couple of hours childcare off each adult- if it was me I wouldn't mind a slow morning with a bit of cbeebies once in the week.

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We've stayed in Oz en Oisans and used the ESF for the last 4 holidays (over 2 seasons) for our kids, currently 7 & 3, and they have been nothing less than fabulous. I have no idea where all this prejudice against the ESF comes from, because in our experience they have been consistently excellent.

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You are being soft!

By age 5 ours were in all-day ski school, which included lunch.
They only got to ski with us the last day, afternoon only....and that was conditional on a good report.

Didn't do them any lasting harm...they both ended up well adjusted ski instructors!

Its not really prejudice when its first hand experience! Compared to ski school in Austria the year before (which the kids loved) our experience with ESF was not good. My priority is having a family holiday which everyone enjoys over and above creating expert skiers.

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

My children have been through ESF from aged five, and had very mixed experiences from resort to resort. Found the ones at val thorens much better than the ones at vallandry / les arc. We gave up on ESF after they failed to deal with a French kid who was bullying the English kids - " because they were English" we got our money back after day three after the child threw snowballs with stones in - again just at the English kids. 4 of them with cuts on their faces (not just our party) The instructors reaction? Gallic shrug.

Only used English instructors since.

A snowHead

@snowshoe, my eldests first ski lessons were with ESF in Courchevel (at age 4) and we were really impressed, though she was just 1 of 3 in an Esprit dedicated lesson. My youngest first time was with ESF in Belle Plagne at 3 and we were very disappointed despite being Esprit and all the piou piou lessons ended up in one garden and when we observed found the instructors were ignoring their Esprit charges leaving them with the Esprit snow ranger and the my were only talking French to the French kids. Sad

So to be honest it could be good, i think it is probably worth the risk at this point as it doesn't sound like you have much choice. I am sure they won't hate it.

A snowHead

We've used ESF for ours as have lots of friends for their kids. Last easter we had 5 ESF instructors on the payroll at the same time, for 9 kids and adults. Our experience is:

1) there are cultural differences. As a result they may seem less sympathetic and stricter than some people are used to, but it works. when it's really mattered they have been able to tell the difference between whinging and genuine problems. we've seen a few times kids who might otherwise be whingey being told brusquely to drop it, and they've complied to the benefits of all.

2) I would highly recommend private tuition. It's more expensive but they progress much much faster and form a better bond with the instructor.

3) ours expect the children to be totally able to deal with their own toilet trips. The instructor cannot leave the group to attend to one. That said, I've not done piou piou so don't know if the helpers will assist, but officially they ask for a child to be able to cope on their own.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Mixed in our experieince but - and it is a big but - once our kids got above 3 star level the standard of tuition and their enjoyment and learning zoomed up . Competition level is really very good. Kids may have to expect to be with all French kids but that's good too !

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We've had a not-good experience with ESF in group lessons, but better with private lessons; this for both adults in our group, and our children who were 6/11 (good experience) and 8/13 (bad). Much also depends on the actual instructor

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@pam w, It is, I think, actually easyski in Alped'Huez that the OP is referring to, which is just a trading name for the Ecole de Ski Internationale in Alpe d'Huez.

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Both of our boys went through the ESF system - one still working his way up (now eight), the other is 17 and doing competitions etc. Both started with piou piou. They started at 3/4 yo. The instructors at all levels have always been wonderful. At piou piou you have to trust them - which can be hard for parents. But the instructors know what they are doing, and they are highly trained. Best advice is to take the children there, make contact with an instructor and introduce the children, then walk away (hardest part, but so necessary). The instructors have to establish some discipline and that cannot easily be done with the parents around. Children will be asked usually to carry their own equipment etc. They get used to it quickly. We've always found the ESF very attentive and caring with our children - and the boys always had such a great time.

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For young kids that the OP is talking about I think ESF would be just fine.

Personally I wouldn't go with ESF as an adult as they are very hit and miss. From personal experience of having worked for a couple of TOs and set up hundreds of lessons for guests, the weekly feedback from customers ranged from very good to downright awful, but with far too much "below average" feedback for my liking. Feedback of other companies was always consistently better. My own personal experience of ESF group lessons were that they were a bit of a waste of time for anything above complete beginners level, and the group size was far too big. I had some lessons with an English instructor during my last season in Meribel and they were far and away the best lessons I've ever had; I think more than anything it was that a native English speaker could use much better analogies and descriptions to get over what he was trying to teach me.

ESF are typically the cheapest in resort, but as with anything you get what you pay for. The analogies thing is, for me, the most important thing for getting a point across so I'd always go with a native of the UK. That usually means paying more, of course.

After all it is free

Jnr had his first ski week with them in Alpe d'Huez (mornings only)when he was 5. He really enjoyed it. A couple of years later he had all days with them in L2A and enjoyed that too, especially as groups were tiny in the afternoon so they got to fly all over the mountain.

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@snowshoe, all depends on you, your kids, how much you like skiing and to an extent the instructor.

We have 3 kids now 12(near 13), 10 and 5 all have been ESF'd (a lot) and all loved it and love skiing. We have never had any major issues with ESF and lots of positive ones.

Piou Piou is fine but make sure they will take a 3 year old as this does vary by resort. I'd certainly not bother with private lessons in a snow garden as they get to mess about as a group anyway. Continence is an issue as you rightly pint out. But continence is relative, in the freezing cold and in salopettes even the most 'continent' 3 or 4 or 5 year old might / will sneak in the odd hot leg. Options, go with the flow and dry salopettes on radiators over night (nice) or not, or wash them, spare skiing kit? or a sneaky 'ski nappy'. What is a ski nappy? I hear you ask, well it's a bit like a Space nappy (see any book on space) and thus 3 yr olds out of nappies, who would not be seen dead in nappies can be cajoled into one for the morning. Oh do not tell the instructor about this. Also usual precautions- everyone has a wee wee before they go and not too much juice with breakfast.

5 year old- no issues just get on with it.

All depends though as although we have been lucky and both Mrs Ed and I are happy to abandon our kids with strange French bloke with a rather rudimentary grasp of English- 'for the greater good' some couples aren't ready for that. Also the eldest child really liked skiing and so once he was up for it the others just followed suite. Have to say we have adapted what we have done over the years. Eldest did have private lessons at 3 (but that was because those were the only thing on offer for 3 year olds where we were). Subsequent 3 yr olds have all been in group lessons and been fine (unless we have been with other families sharing a private lesson- which we'd both say was unnecessary).

Afternoons well I suppose you'll just have to bite that very expensive and frustrating bullet- one of you has the afternoon off to watch Frozen / play on the Wii / self-harm whilst tending to the little darling. (this is the bit where you must really like skiing, a bit paradoxical but if you don't you will never be able to burn the money to get past this). In a couple of years all this will be behind you. Ski lessons will be fine, they won't remember not skiing, lesson in the morning, picnic lunch then skiing together in the afternoons. This is what family life is made of and you'll love it.

It will be fine, just try a Space Nappy (pull ups are best). Oh and a chocolate bar in a pocket- oh and some ski videos to ramp up the excitement and expectations for a month or two before you go.

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I think it is 800 for a week of full days -so 5 or 6 days. Also, their website suggests half days are possible too - 450 for the week.

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€800 the week? could get a ski bunny for that surely http://www.ski-bunnies.com/home.html

We have used the ESF for years. Whilst we've had the odd not so good instructor our kids have always enjoyed their lessons and several of the instructors have been excellent.

When ours were 3 and 5 we went to La Rosiere and used the ESF ski school plus lunch option. The 3 yr old was in Piou Piou and the 5 yr old in Flocon. From what I remember my daughter did not need the loo during the 2 1/2 hr lesson. However this was probably because I gave her a large drink of milk first thing in the morning and then approx. an hour later took her to the loo just before the start of the lesson. I did not worry about the lessons when she was in piou piou as the lessons took place in the enclosed nursery area. I found it harder when she was 4 or 5 and heading up the mountains on chair lifts with ski school, as she was petite for her age.

Using the ESF ski school plus lunch club option meant that we had a good 3 1/2 to 4 hours uninterrupted skiing in the morning. We then took the kids to do a few easy runs before retiring to the swimming pool, Jacuzzi etc.

You know it makes sense.

Thank you so much for all your responses. I don't think snow angels will do half days during a peak week (new year) but I will check. 800euros is a little over our budget and also I work full time so it was always my intention to have afternoons with the kids sledging/swimming etc

The company called easy ski definitely take little ones. They have a nursery session for 2.5-3.5 yr olds.

I think we will give ESF a go. They are advising us to book for a week as it's new year but I think we will just need to risk it. Our older daughter is a prime whinger but she has loved her dry slope lessons and responds well to authority, so hopefully if we just dump her and run she will be fine. The three year old is very tough and could be enticed into a pull up if it had rapunzal on it. She will be devastated if she has an accident though.

Thanks again to everyone for answering .

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

@snowshoe, my experience of not booking early for New Year week was not getting lessons (twice!).

I think EasySki and Easiski are different companies.

A snowHead

A snowHead

Good idea to book early. Even in January friends hadn't booked and weren't able to get lessons with ESF or anyone else in Courchevel 1650. They had to travel up to 1850 which was a bit of a logistical challenge for them!

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

At peak times the group lessons at our local ESF get full - New Year and Feb half term typically some weeks/months in advance.

The best private instructors we use get booked over a year in advance!

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I'm not a fan, but if you have to, try the afternoons - quieter and less subscribed so tend to get better chance of good instructors. Do pre-book, do be on time, do give your kids your mobile number somewhere about their person in case it all goes horribly wrong Wink

aj xx

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Well, yesterday we observed an ESF class of 24!

Here are they assembling at the lift:

And now there they are almost all there - you can certainly make out 17, but we reckon we counted 24 in all.

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The reason there are such mixed reports about ESF is that they are not one company but something of a loose franchise network.
Each resort has its ESF and the 'Owner' runs it pretty well as he sees fit. Some are conscientious and 'customer focussed', others are just raking in what they can off the tourists, now that their knees have given up and they're not quite ready to retire.

My own experience of putting a 5yr old in an ESF class in Val Claret was bad enough that I chose never to use ESF, as a brand, again. I have, however, often skied with excellent instructors who were on the local ESF roster.

Some ESF instructors are some of the most caring, responsible, talented individuals on the hill while others are arrogant, aggressive tossers. Some branches are run perfectly well while others are dire. In the end, ESF as not a brand to trust, or indeed a brand that means very much at all.
So perhaps update your topic title to seek advice about the ESF in your particular resort as it may completely different from the one in the very next village?

After all it is free

@admin, even in the same resort the experience can vary wildly. In Tignes last week we saw several groups of 12 being led around, and being taught absolutely nothing that I could observe (to the point of stopping with an instructor at the top of the group not saying anything or offering any input, to then skiing off again) vs another who seemed to be 121 with a student providing detailed feedback, though that could have been a private lesson I guess.

Personally it seems like coaching 1.0.1 to have a reasonable ratio of students to instructors, largely because there is only so much training time, and at ski lesson prices I would expect a reasonable amount of input. Other schools that advertised to us in Tignes quite openly published their ratios, and none were as high as 1 in 12. Therefore assuming that an instructor from one ski school has a similar chance of being good as any other, you may as well go with the school that gives you the most instruction for your money, otherwise you are just being led around the mountain in a snake of other skiers of vaguely similar ability.

Indeed @Mistress Panda, and beyond the ratio there is the degree of engagement.
I'll never forget the feedback I got re one of the BASI trainers at the PSB one year (wrt a group of 6): "It was better than a private lesson because it was like being in 6 private lessons at the same time, learning from what everyone did."

Indi ski schools must deliver at least a half decent service to survive. ESF schools deliver a decent service if they choose to.

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@admin, you can say that about any ski school. With the benefit of hindsight some of the biggest private schools have not been great for me personally. It depends who you get with any ski school and whether they happen to work for you personally at that particular time. Generally though there is too much the customer knows best these days. The dilemma for most instructors is giving customers what they want or what they actually need to improve. Customers don't know best. How could they otherwise they would not be customers. Improving skiing is all about making changes and adapting. Develop a relationship with an experienced highly qualified instructor and do what they say and you will improve. Shop around and get specific personal recommendations. No ski school is good or bad per se just whether a specific instructor works for you at that time and that is often down to the customer as much as the instructor.

Help!!

Are ESF really that bad?

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