 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Interesting. And similar noises coming out of Italy, too. Not surprising, I suppose. Not clear why any country would tolerate a significant number of businesses who fail to abide by their labour laws. There's been quite a lot of news over recent years about attempts to clamp down on some of the more exploitative "gangmasters" in British agri-business. I bought a pack of 800g of strawberries for £2 the other day - they weren't "marked down" because of date - they had plenty of time before their "use by" date. I did wonder how it was possible to put strawberries into a retail setting at that sort of price and how much the pickers had been paid.
Still bought them though, and made some delicious jam. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Could be a good time to buy a chalet in Switzerland for private use. I'll just sell one of my private planes and grab a few at a discounted rate.
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rob@rar, I have been reading the articles as well about the Swiss changing the law about min pay, this had been on the cards for a little time, so most of the tour companies knew it was coming and have reacted already by reducing their operations for Switzerland next season.
As mentioned above the people who own their own chalets in Switzerland and run them themselves should now be rubbing their hands together. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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UK Tour Ops, can't afford to meet the requirements regarding min pay for Hot/Cat staff, which would equate to a higher salary than a Junior Doctor in the UK. If they did, then prices for guests would rise rather a lot. Folks running Chalets for themselves will also need to meet the minimum req. and face inspections for compliance.
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Surly the prices just inflate, someone will pay it....
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someone will pay it...
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some people will pay for really high quality accommodation and service, certainly - for some people money is absolutely no object. But yer average package holiday punter will not pay £X4 in Switzerland if he can get an equivalent holiday for £X2 in France. Though the days of cheap catered chalets using cheap young British staff might be numbered there too, not just because of French rules but because of smart competition from young East Europeans who speak the relevant languages and who are prepared to work hard and don't expect to spend 5 days skiing every day.
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But yer average package holiday punter will not pay £X4 in Switzerland
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True and i have limited experience here so i'll defer, but my understanding was that those people go to France / Austria / Italy anyway and stay away form Switzerland due to the costs anyway?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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^
That's a broad brush statement. I can think of people who go to Val d'Isere or Couchevel who aren't exactly short of a bob or two.
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I can think of people who go to Val d'Isere or Couchevel who aren't exactly short of a bob or two
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 understatement of the year, dogwatch. My son cooked in a chalet in Val d'Isere and one lot of British guests left a couple of thousand euro tip for the staff to share between them. Not only well off, but also generous and appreciative!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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stay away form Switzerland due to the costs anyway
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Yeah, no-one skis in Switzerland. Verbier is a ghost town mid season.
Given the limited reaction in the Swiss press, I think this is a very "local" issue, local, that is, to the UK (and Dutch(?)).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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It's a red herring IMV; a formal minimum wage was voted down in the last referendum and the authorities have always checked salaries (to guard against wage dumping) when work permits are approved.
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I think that the reduction in chalet holidays in Switzerland is specifically due to Hotel Plan (ie esprit, inghams etc) dropping their chalet program there this year. Like TUI etc they are keeping only a hotel program running in Switzerland for next season and beyond.
I don't work for them so can't be 100% sure what prompted the decision but I would hazard a guess that it is linked to a tightening of Swiss labour laws. Most companies like their holiday costs to be relatively standard across countries and if you have one country which is massively more expensive to run you either have to sell the holidays a lot more expensive, or make significantly less on them.
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You know it makes sense.
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You can't blame the Swiss for stiching closed a labour loophole, Swiss hoteliers have been hit hard in recent years by the strong Swiss Franc, they have to pay out wages according to Swiss Law and it must be incredibly annoying to see competitors based in the UK using a loophole to pay their staff a pitance (thus allowing them to make much larger profits), there are I believe also mandatory wage increases for long service for staff.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| pam w wrote: |
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I can think of people who go to Val d'Isere or Couchevel who aren't exactly short of a bob or two
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understatement of the year, dogwatch. My son cooked in a chalet in Val d'Isere and one lot of British guests left a couple of thousand euro tip for the staff to share between them. Not only well off, but also generous and appreciative! |
That's not uncommon, if you just had a great holiday courtesy of one of you friends then you tip the staff with a goodly amount.
You should never tell the owner as its embarrassing for him, although I often get similar feedback.
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Poster: A snowHead
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That's not uncommon, if you just had a great holiday courtesy of one of you friends then you tip the staff with a goodly amount.
You should never tell the owner as its embarrassing for him
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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As pam w has suggested the French have already picked up on companies employing people on non-local i.e. UK, contracts. Given the dire state of things in France at the moment, there is bound to be a tightening up of the rules in France.
Didn't the recent case of the British instructor also get fined for employing people on UK contracts and not following all the French employment legislation?
When this happens then I would imagine that French chalet costs will rise close to the Swiss ones.
Perhaps, what this shows is that the Brits have been doing things on the cheap and can actually only really afford chalet holidays in Bulgaria.
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Brits aren't breaking the law in the EU working on english contracts - However Switzerland required a visa and is not part of the EEA.
Brits have the right to work on a "Secondment" overseas within the EEA (not Switzerland) as long as they have been employed in the UK and have an A1 to prove national insurance contributions.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Brits have the right to work on a "Secondment" overseas within the EEA (not Switzerland) as long as they have been employed in the UK
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Ah, this is the bit I don't understand. If the law is intended to allow for employees already employed in their home country to be seconded for a limited period abroad, then how can a chalet worker who is ONLY employed to work abroad without any period of employment in the home country (both before or after) be possibly classified as being on secondment?
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Because the employee was hired in the UK.
If they are hired already residing in a foreign resort i believe that would break the rules as they would not be on a secondment.
Also the wages go into a Uk bank account with NI contributions and this can be proved with the A1.
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Is it not being protectionist, or is that only when the French do it?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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skiorboard, EU members do not require a VISA to work in Switzerland, they do require a work permit though, if the work is for longer than 3 months they also need to get a residency permit and I believe they have to apply for this within 8 days of arriving in Switzerland
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D G Orf, so this is why nixmap wants volunteers
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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There is no new laws regarding minimum wage in Switzerland, but there is a 15-year old legally binding collective labour agreement for the hotel and restaurant industry including chalet operators that regulates minimum pay, working ours, holidays, termination of employment etc. and cantonal authorities in Valais finally started to enforce it. It's not protectionism, just as it's not in France. But a person working and living in Switzerland has to be paid a Swiss wage, pay Swiss taxes and insurances. So basically personnel arriving on British contracts that don't comply to Swiss minimums won't be issued work permits.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I never get why an industry which charges a lot of money and makes big profits can get away with paying their staff hardly any wages and get all high and mighty when this is no longer allowed.
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Do you think TOs make big profits?
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You know it makes sense.
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Someone must be.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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TUI probably did, and they own half the TOs.
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Poster: A snowHead
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£34K (cited in the Telegraph) does seem rather generous for a minimum wage. But that's the Swiss people's prerogative - they're an independent country that can run their economy in the way they see fit.
Although I'm a bit of a free market guy, I can see that this might work well for them. Switzerland is a small country and it can make a very comfortable living by appealing solely to the luxury market. Catered chalets full of boorish Brits seeking a cheap holiday hardly improve the ambiance of a resort for the more affluent punter and don't bring a great deal of cash into the local economy. I completely accept that most Brits seeking a cheap holiday aren't boorish, but enough are for it to make economic sense to shut out the party brigade. However unpalatable it might be, social segregation on income grounds can make good economic sense.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| andy wrote: |
| TUI probably did, and they own half the TOs. |
£181m profit before tax to be precise in the year to 31 September 2013. That sounds a lot until you realise their revenues were £15bn. Profits of 1.2% are a massive £12 on a £1,000 skiing holiday. That doesn't leave a lot of spare cash to pay higher wages to chalet staff, which is why so many tour operators have reduced their exposure to the Swis market.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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34k is only about 50% more than what some are calling for as the UK minimum wage. Add in GBP depreciation of 25% compared to Euro, and CHF appreciation of quite a lot (enough for the Swiss to pass law on exchange rate), and even if the Swiss minimum wage numbers didn't change in 5 years there's not really much in it.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| D G Orf wrote: |
| skiorboard, EU members do not require a VISA to work in Switzerland, they do require a work permit though, if the work is for longer than 3 months they also need to get a residency permit and I believe they have to apply for this within 8 days of arriving in Switzerland |
My mistake its been a while since ive worked there, but do remember having to fill in a form stating how much i was earning and it did state minimum amounts which you had to earn, cost of accommodation etc etc
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| andy wrote: |
| 34k is only about 50% more than what some are calling for as the UK minimum wage. |
The current UK adult minimum wage works out around £12.5K. Who's calling for it to be doubled?
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Fri 12-09-14 11:20; edited 1 time in total
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| dogwatch wrote: |
| andy wrote: |
| 34k is only about 50% more than what some are calling for as the UK minimum wage. |
The current UK adult minimum wage works out around £11.5K. Who's calling for it to be doubled? |
People earning 11.5k probably
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| skiorboard wrote: |
| dogwatch wrote: |
| andy wrote: |
| 34k is only about 50% more than what some are calling for as the UK minimum wage. |
The current UK adult minimum wage works out around £11.5K. Who's calling for it to be doubled? |
People earning 11.5k probably |
Plus the people paying for the working tax credits of those on 11.5k.
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Would you rather be paying their dole?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| dogwatch wrote: |
| Would you rather be paying their dole? |
I would prefer to pay them a Basic Income, something that has been considered by Switzerland, an amount enough to live somewhere cheap within the UK.
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That's a restructuring of the benefits system, not the same as a minimum wage. A policy of the UK Greens, I believe.
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