 Poster: A snowHead
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After a bit of overenthusiastic off piste in the thin snow at New Year, I've had to get the skis serviced, filled and sharpened at EB.
The problem is that I now find them really difficult to ski on. It's hard to describe but essentially I think the back ends keep catching. Sometimes it just throws me off balance but sometimes it causes me to completely fall over.
I've read previously that the ends shouldn't be as sharp as the middle; but also that it's nothing wrong with the ski, just bad technique.
Anyone got any opinions on whether I should take them back to the shop and get them de tuned.
Or can I do it myself.
(for reference, been skiing around 15 years, had (different) skis serviced maybe 6 times in the past, happy on any pistes and non gnarly off piste)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I've had a similar feeling when the tips of the skis were sharpened - edges catching and generally being off balance, sometimes (particularly at low speed on flatter sections) getting almost thrown about a bit. I can see why some people want every mm of possible edge, but for me it was entirely unwelcome.
Easily detuned with careful use of a file, just take the very edge off the very front of the ski, and you can do the tail as well if required. Of course it will naturally go away, but presumably the centre of the ski will detune first as it is used most. Other option is to take it back and ask them to sort it.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Hanging burr? Or just detune a bit at tails.
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There's no need to detune them, that was something they did with long straight skis before going out to hunt Mammoth.
More likely a burr as Dave said. Can you feel anything really sharp on the edges?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Have they tuned the edges to different angles than you are used to?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
There's no need to detune them, that was something they did with long straight skis before going out to hunt Mammoth.
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Here i can't agree!
What ski is it? some skis still really need detuning, especially wider ski with lots of torsional stiffness at the tip and tail (carbon stuff for example)
The real solution could be to change the base angle but you don't want to pay for that again. First let us know the ski model, then can think about wether you should just run a diamond (or rougher) file over the tails.
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| dulcamara wrote: |
| Quote: |
There's no need to detune them, that was something they did with long straight skis before going out to hunt Mammoth.
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Here i can't agree!
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No problem. I've used pretty stiff fat skis for a few years, the current pair are carbon too, and always get the edges as sharp as I can along the full length.
My moneys still on a burr or similar.
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you probably need to detune the tips and tails. run a de-burrer over the last 200cm at each end, just to dull them a little.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I'm with Mosha Marc, here ,
DONT DETUNE THEM
DEBURR THEM
then try again!
both my 76mm and 112 skis are sharp tip to tail
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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If you ever find this happens on your first run and you're really stuck one day just grab a stone or pebble and rub it up and down the ski edges two or three times. The key areas are the tips and tails but sometimes you have to do the entire edge. That will dull them enough to get you through the day until you can waste time on them or get to a shop. Obviously we're talking leisure skiing here. It's amazing the crap that comes off skis when you run a stone over them after a belt service, and that's what most shops will do by default, so if the forget to clean it up your skis won't behave.
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I bet they've had a base grind.
Either the skitech has forgotten to put on some base angle or, previously, there was so much cut away that they were detuned and now you're struggling with how they should be.
Note that it's very easy to over do the base edge angle. The tool normally holds the file/stone at 1° but often there's nothing to stop you cutting too far and taking out a bit of base as well - especially after repeated servicing.
For example:
If you were to repeatedly work on the base edge with the tool was set at the same angle then, after a while, you would encroach into the base area. This would make the skis very 'soft' and easy to turn. Only a base grind can make them 'grippy' again.
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You know it makes sense.
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The skis are Line Prophets
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Ask EB what edge and base angle they used.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I've got some line prophets. wouldnt call them particularly torsionally stiff. Still I'd try detuning them a little and if that doesnt help get the edge angles checked
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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TheGeneralist, Do NOT detune 'em before checking the following:
If the ski has not had a base grind check that the hanging burr created when the side edge angles have been sharpened have been fully removed. A hanging burr will cause the ski to be hooky/grabby.
If the ski has had a base grind then in addition to checking for a hanging burr as above you need to check for sufficient base edge angle, especially at the contact points. The machines/operator often have trouble cutting sufficient angle on the upturn of the tips &/or tails (likely to be the tails in your case). Insufficient base edge angle will also cause the ski to be hooky/grabby.
I see machined serviced skis all the time that have both problems.
Detuning is a leftover from the old straight ski days (ie a flat base edge angle & a 0/90 side edge angle) & there's no need for it at all on modern skis, irrespective of their sidecut/torsion stiffness/construction etc, providing the edges have been correctly set & finished. Detuning will remove metal that can never be recovered, will shorten the effective edge of the ski & often doesn't fully cure the problem. The correct solution is a properly set base edge angle or a slightly increased base edge angle in the tips'n'tails as this allows for the required progressive engagement of the edge but still gives full length sharpness - however many people/shops/techs don't understand edge geometry/function & detuning is a easy solution to the problem, especially as most shops don't have the knowledge/tools to do localised hand work on the base edge.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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^^ what he says... anyone telling you to "de-tune" probably hasn't tuned a pair of skis in 10 years or is still doing what they did 20 years ago.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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spyderjon, is the expert so whatever he says 
The only exception I have been told about is on extreme fat skis with huge tip rocker and a big sidecut, these may need a little "dulling" not de tune on the tip area, but again I will bow down to spyderjon, on this?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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huge tip rocker and big side cut = small effective edge so why dull and have even less edge...
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skimottaret,
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huge tip rocker and big side cut = small effective edge so why dull and have even less edge...
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I think its down to, when you tip the ski right over you get much more of the edge engaging the snow which can lead to the ski biting to much on the tip. Its something that Movement recommend on the Flyswatter only.
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another reason not to ski clown skis
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| Quote: |
The only exception I have been told about is on extreme fat skis with huge tip rocker and a big sidecut, these may need a little "dulling" not de tune on the tip area, but again I will bow down to spyderjon, on this?
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Not found this to be the case. I'm mainly on the JJ these days, which is 126-136-115-133-123 with a 16m radius. It is moderately soft in the tip and tail and stiff underfoot. They really need to be sharp along the length of the ski for best performance on firmer snow.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
^^ what he says... anyone telling you to "de-tune" probably hasn't tuned a pair of skis in 10 years or is still doing what they did 20 years ago.
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Hey watch it you 
Jon knows a million times more about this than me but..
I stand by my statement, changing the base angle is of course the correct answer but that costs more money. Plus I had a pair of double carbon layered, fully cambered fat skis, straight from the supplier, no burrs, 0,5 base angle (at least that's what they told me) and they quite simply needed de-tuning at the tip and tail in order to let them steer smoothly on hard pack. Once done they handled fine.
The point i have found is that wide normally cambered stiff skis, can get a bit grabby at the ends, grip is not an issue so de-tuning does the job I need it to
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| livetoski wrote: |
| ......The only exception I have been told about is on extreme fat skis with huge tip rocker and a big sidecut, these may need a little "dulling" not de tune on the tip area...... |
Detuning is not required on these skis either providing the edge geometry is correct to start with. I can guarantee that if a user says that a dull or detune helped the skis performance then the edge geometry either wasn't right to start with or if it was then adding a tad more base edge angle at the contact point (usually only at the tip) is the far better solution.
Whitedot ship their skis with a label on them (which I remove prior to sale) recommending that their skis are detuned at the for about 100mm at the contact points but when I challenged them on this they didn't know how/why this came to be. There's probably not a ski on the market that combines such a wide tip with a tight radius as their Preacher & they ski superbly with full length sharpness.
The edges on my skis (Blizzard Brahma, WD Ranger CL & Down CD3C) are all set to a proper full length 1,4 & they all perform superbly. Interestingly, & again against popular belief, is that they haven't exhibited any faster wear/burring/blunting with side edges set to 4 than skis with shallower side edge angles.
Unfortunately the lack of knowledge in most shops/techs is scary with most having been 'trained' by their predecessor who was trained by their predecessor, & so on. Last year, when doing some mystery shopping () I was told by a tech in a major chain shop that the only way to dress down a welded base repair was to grind the ski  . And the manufacturers can be as bad - I email Amplid a couple of years ago & was told that their edges were 90 degrees. I queried this as to what exactly they meant & was told that they had a flat base edge angle & a vertical/90 degree side edge, meaning a 0,0 spec which would be unskiable. I've since had a number of pairs of new Amplids in for mounting & they were all shipped with edges set to 1,1.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| dulcamara wrote: |
| .....I had a pair of double carbon layered, fully cambered fat skis, straight from the supplier, no burrs, 0,5 base angle and they quite simply needed de-tuning at the tip and tail in order to let them steer smoothly on hard pack..... |
The problem there was the too shallow 0.5 base edge angle & I'd better it was even less at the contact points, especially as a tad of base concavity at the tips'n'tails is common on many skis.
| dulcamara wrote: |
| .....changing the base angle is of course the correct answer but that costs more money..... |
Not true.
All the DIY'er needs is a few minutes with a marker pen, fine file/diamond file & a business card to use as a shim which costs nothing. You do however need to know how to do it
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I had a similar experience with my WD Ones when they had a full service, it seems the skitech took off the factory angles during the service and the skis were left extremely "bitey" - felt like they were continually trying to roll themselves flat rather than engage the edge and steer, if that makes sense. I followed a youtube demo that sounds pretty much the same as what spyderjon suggests to change the base angle and they've been fine since.
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dulcamara, 0.5 works well on a SL or GS ski but is a bit aggressive on a wide ski. I would agree with Jon , rather than dulling the ski (de tuning) I would put a lead in base angle of say 1 degree up to the contact point. Getting into exotic terrain but racers use blended base angles all the time... It does take some knowledge to do correctly though.. Still wouldn't recommend dulling an edge.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Haha, i got scared and gave up and am pretty glad I did! There is (at least in my version) a mile of extra space in the toe once I heated and stretched the liner, which then gave out a load more, so it really wasn't needed.
Actually, (moving off thread here) the liners in what I assume are the 12/13 model are honestly a bit rubbish, oh and I've had to repair 3 buckles so far this season, actually getting pretty good at it! my version is lighter and definitely NOT going to break!
Final point: pee'd off that i didnt buy those PM Gears off you, binned the Ski Logiks i ended up with after 3 months and got something else, meanwhile my ski buddy is on the Lhasa Pows and loving them.... gutted!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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TheGeneralist, I recommend a trip to see spyderjon at his works and take the tuning lesson from him - then you will be able to sort anything out even trying it out during your time on the snow, if you buy the tuning kit. Well worth the investment.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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throwing this out there, what do snowheads consider as a deburr.....
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| kitenski wrote: |
| throwing this out there, what do snowheads consider as a deburr..... |
Mines a lump of impregnated green rubber
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kitenski, I was taught by SH very own tuning deity spyderjon, to deburr the skis after I have sharpened the edges. For this, if I am still doing it properly, he provided a gummi stone - as Masque, describes a sort of soft abrasive green rubber - like a coarse school eraser. I do it by holding this nicely square object carefully up to the newly made edge and running it down the sides of the angle in turn. I take some amount of care not to scuff the exact point of the edge so I don't knock it off. What I don't have in my kit and so am not dressing, is a base angle guide, the base angles have been previously set by another tuner and I have no idea how long I can go before this needs addressing, but clearly I am not paranoid about this ski tuning or else I'd be more concerned and doing the base angles each time, as it is from the kit I have I do the side, deburr them and call the job jobbed!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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If you've had a base grind check that the base is flat. If the base is rounded (so the edges are 'high') is can make the ski very difficult to manage as it's much more difficult to skid them. I've seen it once with a friend, and the ski was almost unskiable.
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| kitenski wrote: |
| throwing this out there, what do snowheads consider as a deburr..... |
I run one of these up and down the edges:
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FAQ
But there has to be an element of a 'small change can feel like huge one to the user' and his body is unable to react to to that change without demanding a concious effort. . . Goes to the unconscious memory 