 Poster: A snowHead
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| miranda wrote: |
| SkiRider wrote: |
To be honest, i would be very surprised if someone with a GCSE in a language couldn't communicate the word accident, a location and a body part over the phone to a patroller in the case of an accident. |
To be honest, I could no way have done that after getting an A* in my GCSE French. If you'd given me time to think about it and write it down, or memorise it and given me prompts like you get in the oral test, yes, and I could have used some quite fancy tenses too in order to score the extra marks… communicating simple emergency information, off the cuff, verbally, over the phone so without even the use of mime… no way. |
"Il y a un accident dessous de la telesiege 'Combyre', sur la gauche de la piste 'Ric' a cote du coin. C'est son genou, c'est urgent." I think if you had just finished your GCSE you should be able to say that, probably using better French. Bear in mind an A* in French however many years ago is not the same as being A* level at French in the present.
Either way, the point is if you couldn't manage something like that in theory you wouldn't pass your ISIA second language exam, which was the original point.
Taken from the BASI page:
Within the safety element of the test (which has the most weighting) you should give as much information as you would expect to give in an emergency situation to the emergency services.
This should include a minimum of:
Where you are on the mountain
How many people are involved
What you suspect the injuries are and how they were incurred
Give your understanding on the scale of gravity
You should also be able to explain how and where you would contact the emergency services in the event that mobile phone networks were not available
As it stands, the test itself should be sufficient for people working as an instructor in a country with a foreign language, and is probably better than when all you needed to do was send in your B grade GCSE certificate. In practise it's not really done under exam conditions, and as someone said it could be anyone on the other end of the phone.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
I could no way have done that after getting an A* in my GCSE French. If you'd given me time to think about it and write it down, or memorise it and given me prompts like you get in the oral test, yes, and I could have used some quite fancy tenses too in order to score the extra marks…
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I'd agree with that. And in any case, that's not enough, is it, just location and body part? The rescuer has not understood your terrible accent over the poor radio link. He asks you to clarify. Or he asks about the urgency as there's been a rush of cases; could you reasonably wait a bit? It's not just about saying a few words, it's about understanding the response. Imagine the Daily Mail headlines if someone was badly injured on a walk in the Cairngorms and waited hours for rescue because the Polish guide couldn't speak more than half a dozen words of English. (Actually that's most improbable - even the Polish driver who courier'd some stuff to me this morning spoke more than A level English, albeit with a very thick accent - they wouldn't expect to get a job as a mountain guide without good English, no matter how fine their Polish mountain qualifications). |
Agreed, but I think the idea is that if you've managed to do this over the phone in your language test, it should be no different over the phone to a patroller. If you can't, then you shouldn't be passing.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| SkiRider wrote: |
Bear in mind an A* in French however many years ago is not the same as being A* level at French in the present. |
I have tutored various people to A* French in recent years and I know exactly what level is required today - believe me, it's not higher than it was when I did it however many years ago.
| SkiRider wrote: |
Taken from the BASI page:
Within the safety element of the test (which has the most weighting) you should give as much information as you would expect to give in an emergency situation to the emergency services.
This should include a minimum of:
Where you are on the mountain
How many people are involved
What you suspect the injuries are and how they were incurred
Give your understanding on the scale of gravity
You should also be able to explain how and where you would contact the emergency services in the event that mobile phone networks were not available
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Well I'm relieved to hear that British instructors can confidently do all of that under pressure in foreign languages, but it's definitely higher than GCSE standard.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| miranda wrote: |
| Well I'm relieved to hear that British instructors can confidently do all of that under pressure in foreign languages, but it's definitely higher than GCSE standard. |
Don't get me wrong, I think the standards set for the test are fine as they are, but there does seem to be a big incongruence between the standard set and the actual standard of a lot of instructors that have apparently passed. I think that the second language is actually the weakest part of the ISIA level, but not on the part of the criteria. There is a huge attitude among instructors that the second language is the least important part of their examination part, something to be forgotten once passed, and in my opinion should be given a much greater emphasis, for all of the reasons people have said.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I feel completely safe in the knowledge that I can make fun of some of my ISIA/ISTD instructors with locals in the local language without fear of retribution. I'm also confident that they could have learnt a few phases for a test but given the blank expressions on their faces when the local operators speak to them I know the ISIA standard required is inadequate even to understand whether a lift or piste is open.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Well that is sad as he seems to have been in business a long while but probably the only long term outcome even if he had deep reserves
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spud, Your link says that a petition for insolvency was raised by by a claimed Creditor and was due to be heard on 10 March - do you know if the petition for insolvency was approved (where does that information get published)?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Alastair Pink, Have no idea...it just popped up on my FB page
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Jake43 wrote: |
Well that is sad as he seems to have been in business a long while but probably the only long term outcome even if he had deep reserves |
You wonder if there is a lesson that if you want to succeed in business long term in a foreign country you need to go the extra mile to fit into the way the foreign country does things regardless of whether you think it is right or fair.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| emwmarine wrote: |
You wonder if there is a lesson that if you want to succeed in business long term in a foreign country you need to go the extra mile to fit into the way the foreign country does things regardless of whether you think it is right or fair. |
Do you ever drink Starbucks etc or buy from Amazon? Perhaps those incomers should have done things in the mundane way Britain was used to rather than bringing new and innovative offerings to us?
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petition to wind up doesn't necessarily mean this company has gone bust and do we even know it is the main trading company of his business? it does mean the company hasn't paid the petitioner but there are plenty of reasons why that might be the case
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Ah FB's dedicated direct spam can't beat it for coming up with a mix of really great and really weird stories
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Wow ! reading war and peace was shorter 
Seems to be an issue not really raised here is that the French system does not have any recognised level below Diploma other than the trainee when other country's have recognised levels below their std that is equal to the French diploma.
this is a short fall in the French system ( dirived it seems from profit as trainees are payed so much less) imo and is what is causing the issue as well as the points already raised.
If they had a certificated level below the diploma then it would be logical that the Basi level 3 would equate to this as it is clearly above the French trainee, ( this could be someone who is newly qualified under the French system for their first season or two and could only teach upto intermediate level) needing teaching experience/hours served to then be awarded the diploma.
Even level two in some respects is above the French trainee but in the defence of the French system some who pass this level are not that good a skier themselves and would look stupid trying to pass the test technique ( some would pass easy some with work).
So it is understandable if the French wish to maintain in their opinion high stds, so that level 2 at best is a trainee and passing some other test should be enforced be it the TT, BASI lvl3 or equivelent.
Basi level 3 though should be recognised as per the outlined above French certificate this gives needed and valuable experience. This could also weed out French skiers who pass the TT with ease but can not teach for toffee as well as unsuitable instructors from other organisations.
It seems logical way to attain the highest level of instructor and after all is that not what each resort/ski school should strive to attain in an ever more competative market?
Unfortunatly I used that world absent in any country's political/bureaucratical language "LOGIC".
I feel sorry for SB, his staff and customers and even for the average French person who live and work there who due to all the adverse publicity may end up seeing a drop in visitors which could result in loss of jobs for them as well.
If information posted here is true about the number of ESF and how they could be in a position years down the road of not enough instructors it will not be long if it has not already happened that French kids who can not pass the TT decide hey lets go to the UK system get to level 4 and circumvent the TT net result is loss of income into the ESF for training and more instructors on French slopes with non French qualifications, with the added problem many of them are French born citizens who know their rights in France.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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http://www.liberation.fr/societe/2014/04/07/moniteur-de-ski-britannique-prison-ferme-requise-pour-enseignement-illegal_993926
I like the comments:
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So basically, what we learned is that this guy will get 4 months in prison because he had the cheek to teach the English to ski without being able to speak French, I'm shocked, and in addition he was giving work to 28 people in a country that is in crisis, I'm doubly shocked!! |
| Quote: |
Once again a certain corporate mentality manifest itself in our Republican state where intolerance has become the rule. The State wants to control everything, legislate for everything but is incapable to even control itself, to respect its own committements, even at the highest level.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Davidof, interesting article you refer to in Liberation. The prosecutor claims there are "hundreds of British ski instructors teaching in france without difficulty'.... Would that be correct then? Hundreds?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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speed098, I don't think an ability, or inability, to speak French well has anything to do with it. If you have the required ski qualifications you can, it seems, get away with a pretty rubbish level of French.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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pam w, to teach professionally in France you need a carte professionelle. This normally requires an interview. So you would need a basic competency in French. Davidof, correct me if wrong.
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| pam w wrote: |
| speed098, I don't think an ability, or inability, to speak French well has anything to do with it. If you have the required ski qualifications you can, it seems, get away with a pretty rubbish level of French. |
[quote="pam w"],
Was Not me honest
I was saying the issue seems to be the French do not have a structured progression like BASI or CSIA they have fully qualified instructors or trainees.
Though I do think that a bit more than holiday language skills should be std with progression in learning the language part of the pre-requisite to continue in the years ahead, this goes for anyone working in a foreign country.
From what I have read the French should recognise BASI L3 as at worst it is one level below their fully qualified yet they do not and this needs to be sorted out BASI L4 is equal and they do recognise that but L3 from my reading should not mean having to take the TT or Euro Test this is an agreement between two organisations and has absolutely no relevance or validity if it clashes with European legislation, and it is only because of this agreement that L3 are being forced to take the TT or Euro Test.
It beggers the question just who are BASI officials looking out for because it does not seem to be their own members who pay them large fees for training and qualifications and pay membership as well.
I hope SB wins his fight and then forwards it to the European parliament who then apply sanctions on both the ESF and BASI for making this agreement and further sanctions on ESF for breaking the legislation re free movement of labour and having to recognise equivalent qualifications and the level one below which they clearly are not doing.
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| speed098 wrote: |
Was Not me honest
I was saying the issue seems to be the French do not have a structured progression like BASI or CSIA they have fully qualified instructors or trainees.
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It's not as simple as that. The process in France is closer to becoming a university graduate in the UK. Individual unis don't teach the exact same structure on a module-pre-module basis, but it's recognised that the end result is of a certain standard.
There's no specific path, as you say, but you study the subject at approved school and graduate with a 'degree' in ski instruction.
ENSA in Chamonix does the Diplome d'Etat de ski alpin and there's more info about the course syllabus and exams in there : http://www.ensa-chamonix.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=126&Itemid=253
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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To summarise the EU directive or at least the most current version allows countries to set their own regulations and only requires that they recognise equivalent qualifications ie BASI level 4 + eurotest for France. Allowing level 3 only appears to be in a previous version of EU Directive and this version still allows appitude tests ie Eurotest before accepting qualifications. Allowing level 3s in France appears to be a selected reading of an old version of the EU directive but ultimately the courts will decide the first round next month. Whether the law is right or wrong as it applies to ski instruction is another question. The entry levels for instructors in BASI are very low compared to other countries as we can see on other threads but in reality are suffecient for taking beginners as intended. The court case indicates that a language test could be the next requirement. The language test is the weakest element of the current system as I know many level 3/4 instructors are not capable of basic communication with local resort workers even if they passed some test as part of their qualifications
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18 pages so far. And this one will run and run. Wait until Le Ski's court case comes up again.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
pam w, to teach professionally in France you need a carte professionelle. This normally requires an interview. So you would need a basic competency in French. Davidof, correct me if wrong.
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There is no interview required to obtain a carte pro. You do have to prove your competency in the French language. This can be via an academic qualification (HND level or thereabouts) or, for ski/snowboard instructors, I believe the ISIA language test is accepted.
In my case, I am in the unusual situation of being fluent in French, but having no means of proving it. I phoned the Carte Pro man to ask for his advice. After explaining the issue (in French) he simply said "sounds OK to me!" and signed it off for me!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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off topic a bit but if BASI 3 is good enough; does anyone know what level through the Canadian system do you have to be to be considered equivalent ?
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I have checked the position vis a vis Simon Butler and their website is not showing prices for winter 2014/2015 so I guess Simon has followed through with his threat to close down his business. A petition to wind up is often a cost effective way of closing down a business.
I think it is a crying shame that after 20 odd years of providing first rate holidays for Brits this should happen. The holidays provided by Simon and Jay were good value, they ran a tight ship and in my view they deserved better than this.
They are however a pretty innoivative couple and I wouldnt be surprised to find them doing something similar somewhere else sometime in the future and I wish them well in whatever they do next if indeed they have pulled out of Megeve for good.
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You know it makes sense.
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| TTT wrote: |
| To summarise the EU directive or at least the most current version allows countries to set their own regulations and only requires that they recognise equivalent qualifications ie BASI level 4 + eurotest for France. Allowing level 3 only appears to be in a previous version of EU Directive and this version still allows appitude tests ie Eurotest before accepting qualifications. Allowing level 3s in France appears to be a selected reading of an old version of the EU directive but ultimately the courts will decide the first round next month. Whether the law is right or wrong as it applies to ski instruction is another question. The entry levels for instructors in BASI are very low compared to other countries as we can see on other threads but in reality are suffecient for taking beginners as intended. The court case indicates that a language test could be the next requirement. The language test is the weakest element of the current system as I know many level 3/4 instructors are not capable of basic communication with local resort workers even if they passed some test as part of their qualifications |
I'm not sure what you think you're summarising. The only EU directive that's currently applicable demands other EU quals one level below national level be accepted. An aptitude test can only be applied when qualifications and experience have been taken into account, not demanded at the beginning of the declaration process. Changes to legislation in train may change this.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I'm summarising the directive so if they can demonstrate that experience and qualifications include equivalent of Eurotest (eg FIS points) and EMS (eg mountain guide) then level 3 would have to be accepted. The new version of the directive removes reference to lower level so level 3 in any case will not work going forward. The french could then introduce a language test going forward as the court has implied. This debate has been running for decades so will not suddenly stop. I'm currently advising on a legal case and fair and equitable does not come into it. I heard from a BASI trainer that much of the legal arguments on both sides concern whether the correct procedures under the law have been applied. Tactically aligning himself with extremists does not help I believe as it looks like bridges have been burnt.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Further the fact that 100s are qualified and working without a problem is unlikely to help the case. Something I still don't understand is why SB did not make sure he sorted out the grandfather admin long ago rather than get into a battle with the French.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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This is an interesting topic since it shows European law evolving and affecting a sport that we all love. The whole subject is highly emotive with opinions often being affected by what people want to happen rather than the bald facts.
The arguments and questions in court were based on the 2005 directive (as it was enacted into French law) since that was in force at the time the decisions were made. The argument for the prosecution was that since there is permanent derogation on safety grounds for ski instruction (issued to Austria, France and Italy) only a European countries top qualification is acceptable, plus the Eurotest as a technical test and the EMS as a safety test (the judges words).
The decision will be made on the basis of what the judge considers to be the correct law as it applied to ski instruction at the time and whether the correct procedures were followed. There are many possible outcomes: If it is found for example that SB and his instructors should have been granted their instructors licenses it will only affect them, that is to say 4 people. Although they may be told that they are not guilty but must reapply.
Any new declarations will be dealt with under the new directive that came into force in January. TTT is right in saying that the new directive is much clearer and would make it easier for the French to refuse permission.
If they are all found guilty there is even the chance of a jail sentence although French courts are often reluctant to do so. Apart from fines there is also the risk of being banned from teaching in France. There may be a partial victory and SB may be told that he can have his French license. Any appeal will be on the basis of what the written judgement says.
Many people are correct when they say that SB's product is very popular with his clients but since this case has attracted such wide publicity on both sides of the channel, with such a polarisation of opinion, would a different approach to finding a solution have been more appropriate?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Have just found on FaceBook a post from Simon Butler which says that the April Court hearing went well and his lawyer was pretty confident of a good outcome. The decision is due on 16 June but in the meantime Simon says that planning for next year is on target.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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If he wins the case either on level 3/aptitude test or procedures think it could still be an issue next season with MoU and new directive.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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FAQ
