I think this is the best explanation of the situation so far (you need to watch all of it so set aside 30 minutes)... http://vimeo.com/88230093
That's an interesting explanation but seems to me to break down on the point that there are no official government-recognised "British" ski qualifications against which to establish mutual recognition. BASI, afaik, is just a members' organisation with no official status. Or am I wrong?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
dogwatch, ski instruction in the UK is not a regulated profession there is no mechanism for government recognition. BASI is a full member of the International Ski Instructors Association as the UK representative.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
rob@rar wrote:
dogwatch, ski instruction in the UK is not a regulated profession there is no mechanism for government recognition. BASI is a full member of the International Ski Instructors Association as the UK representative.
The Governing bodies of snowsports in the UK are Snowsport England, Scotland & Wales. Could they not Join?
Any organisation can call itself the "Governing Body" of a sport. It doesn't mean it has any legal status.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Quote:
....thanks for a fresh approach...rUK will have to apply to join the EU ( or for many there will be no need to waste any time on such a thing ) , ask Scotland if it agrees to a monetary union so as to keep using the £ etc etc
Interesting video - it is basically the case for the defence and the prosecution interpret the directive differently.
Agree with Fatbobs instruction selection criteria - if they improve my skiing and I have a good time I don't care what nationality they are - being a Brit is not my selection criteria and having more Brit ski instructors in France is also not part of the directive.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Always interesting getting two sides of the same story
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Simon Butler wrote:
illegal deals done by BASI with the French
I guess that says it all on the question of why he's not had any support from BASI.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Out of interest, does anyone know roughly how many British BASi qualified ISIA or Level 2s with Test technique are currently working as stagieres in France? Lots of people point out that it is possible and I know there are some but I'd be interested to know how many actually get trainee positions, in competition with so many would-be French instructors.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
rsvpann wrote:
http://www.planetski.eu/news/5856
Always interesting getting two sides of the same story
Got to say the French Embassy propaganda looked sketchy as hell and unless SB is lying in his rebuttal it just looks embarrassing.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
rsvpann wrote:
Out of interest, does anyone know roughly how many British BASi qualified ISIA or Level 2s with Test technique are currently working as stagieres in France? Lots of people point out that it is possible and I know there are some but I'd be interested to know how many actually get trainee positions, in competition with so many would-be French instructors.
Not really answering your question but everyone that I have spoken to while they were doing test technique training has had jobs lined up if they passed.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
What I find interesting were Jean's comments that Experience is supposed to play a part in the consideration as to weather or not a qualified instructor from other countries needs to take the Eurotest, if I've understood his explanation (and it seems clear to me) When a non French qualified outdoor instructor (e.g ski instructor) enters France intending to teach he must register with the relavent local authority, providing details of his qualifications AND experience, if a ski instructor is Qualified to BASI level 3 or 4 he may not need to take the Eurotest provided he has relavent experience, that Might be the case for BASI 2 instructors if they had a lot of experience but not for BASI 1 instructors because BASI do not regard that as a teaching on snow qualification, this would also apply to other EU nationals with their own countries qualifications.
Where Simon Butler (sp?) might have problems is with his staff, so far as I can see he has both a sufficient professional qualification and sufficient experience to be granted the right to teach, the French might be able to go after him either if he had failed to do his paperwork or if his school wa employing people without the right to work / had failed to do their paperwork
Can anyone tell me if I've got any of the above wrong and if so why ?
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
D G Orf, you've got that about right IMO.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
miranda wrote:
Simon Butler wrote:
illegal deals done by BASI with the French
I guess that says it all on the question of why he's not had any support from BASI.
From Satolas protocol (2006):
Quote:
We note as an introduction that this agreement concerns only the ISTD diploma (ex BASI grade 1) as the only professional qualification recognised at the European level in relation to its training course.
Quote:
BASI also agrees to no longer encourage or support any individual initiative with the EEC.
Quote:
BASI agrees to recognise, on a European level, no other diploma except the ISTD.
It looks like BASI gave up supporting non-ITSDs in exercising their right to work to the maximum extent allowed under Directive 2005/36, so I would say the die was cast then.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
D G ORF - the person in the video is SBs advisor I understand and also has some history with the French authorities apparently and the video was made apparently by someone supportive of the SB case. Therefore my understanding is that it is not an independent analysis.
The actual directive talks about recognising prior level qualifications (although apparently this will disappear in the next version of the directive) providing they have the same training by experience or an aptitude test so a level 3 could argue that they had the same training and aptitude as an ISTD if they had say the same hours as an ISTD, equivalent FIS points (hence the Eurotest exemption as you have the equivalent training by experience) and mountain guide qualifications. Countries are allowed to set their own regulations under the directive - they must just recognise equivalent qualifications or those who have the same training obtained by alternative means.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Quote:
It looks like BASI gave up supporting non-ITSDs in exercising their right to work to the maximum extent allowed under Directive 2005/36, so I would say the die was cast then.
Is there a question of jurisdiction? Are BASI, and their French interlocutors, empowered to set aside a Directive?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
TTT wrote:
D G ORF - the person in the video is SBs advisor I understand and also has some history with the French authorities apparently and the video was made apparently by someone supportive of the SB case. Therefore my understanding is that it is not an independent analysis.
Do they? I rarely hear a bad word against the French up here in Ecosse. Hopefully we can reinstate the Auld Alliance once we give the rest of the UK its independance.
Could not agree more. What us so "little England" is the constant use if the word "Brit" by English people when they mean "English" and even worse the assumption that prevailing attitudes in England must also hold true in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Irritating at best. But trust me, you will never convince them otherwise!
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
zikomo,
Quote:
Could not agree more. What us so "little England" is the constant use if the word "Brit" by English people when they mean "English" and even worse the assumption that prevailing attitudes in England must also hold true in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Irritating at best. But trust me, you will never convince them otherwise!
Brits Inglunders Jocks Frogs
We are all basically Euros.
Could not agree more. What us so "little England" is the constant use if the word "Brit" by English people when they mean "English" and even worse the assumption that prevailing attitudes in England must also hold true in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Irritating at best. But trust me, you will never convince them otherwise!
Brits Inglunders Jocks Frogs
We are all basically Euros.
Now that will set the cat amongst the pigeons
(I agree though!)
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Quote:
What us so "little England" is the constant use if the word "Brit" by English people when they mean "English"
Sometimes, possibly. But when I use "Brit" I mean British. Lots of the British instructors working in France (and maybe some of those who would like to) are Scottish. What is far more annoying to me (as I am Welsh) is the use of "English" to encompass other Brits.
I suppose there are centuries of history which have pitted the English against the French even though they have been on the "right side" for the last century and a half. All those scarey tales of "Old Boney". Whereas many British people would have no prejudice, one way or another, about the Austrians. They watched "The Sound of Music" lots of times but didn't pay attention. So despite their having been on the "wrong side" itheir crimes against free competition in the ski business are just not on the radar.
After all it is free
After all it is free
pam w - I agree it is irritating when "English" is used to encompass other Brits. I have to point out, though, that it is only English people who do this! You would never hear anyone from Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland do so. But I recognise that this this is an old (and irrelevant to this thread) grievance, and also that no matter how hard we try it is impossible to get the English to see why it matters!
Last edited by After all it is free on Sat 8-03-14 11:05; edited 1 time in total
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BASI and the French authorities have to act under the directive. They are not above the law. All they are encouraged to do under the directive is to set up a system of mutual recognition to facilitate the process of recognising qualifications. The current MoU signed up by 9 countries including BASI and France includes the Eurotest. It is persuasive evidence of agreed best practice under the directive but it is just meant to speed the process up and I don't think it is definitive.
Brit for me is just smart phone abbreviation for BASI as in British....or holiday makers from the UK. This is just a social media messageboard, I don't believe there is any prevailing attitude but there is some nationalistic rhetoric from some political and media sources commenting on the case which indicates that there are some people who hold these attitudes which are not helpful and not actually specifically relevant to the cases.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
zikomo wrote:
it is impossible to get the English to see why it matters!
No, it's not impossible because it matters to some English people as much as it matters to you - not all English people have the same mentality as one another, so please stop generalising about "the English".
From what is being said here "the Brits" have been just as bad as "the French" in this matter, so any anti-French sentiment provoked by SB's case is nonsense. I don't think SB is anti-French, so it's pointless people being anti-French on his behalf.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
zikomo wrote:
pam w - I agree it is irritating when "English" is used to encompass other Brits. I have to point out, though, that it is only English people who do this!
Not true. Many Americans do so, for example.
Quote:
But I recognise that this this is an old (and irrelevant to this thread) grievance,
So you are raising it here because?
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Sat 8-03-14 12:52; edited 2 times in total
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
zikomo, when I say English, I mean English, when I say British I mean British. I am proud to be both. Please don't resort to lazy stereotyping of the tabloid type (did you see what I did there? ) I'm also proud to be European.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Arctic Roll, +3 (English, British, European).
I also get irritated and occasionally embarrassed when people misuse English/British. And also when "Europe" is used for "EU" - though I guess a certain laziness is understandable and the two are closer in extent than they used to be.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
laundryman wrote:
Arctic Roll, +3 (English, British, European).
+4, with one amendment. I don't worry when people say I'm English (I was born and grew up in Wales), trying not to get too tribal about it. I spend about 4 months of the year outside the UK, mostly in Europe, so feel an affinity for more places than just the one I grew up in.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
dogwatch wrote:
zikomo wrote:
pam w - I agree it is irritating when "English" is used to encompass other Brits. I have to point out, though, that it is only English people who do this!
Not true. Many Americans do so, for example.
......
Shakespeare referred to England when he meant the wider mainland:
This precious stone set in the silver sea,
Which serves it in the office of a wall
Or as a moat defensive to a house,
Against the envy of less happier lands,
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
rob@rar,
Quote:
I was born and grew up in Wales
I'd never have guessed.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Pedantica,
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
My own experience is that virtually everyone outwith the British Isles and quite a few within it use English and British virtually synonymously, though they may occasionally identify the Celtic areas individually. The Irish are more commonly identified individually than elsewhere though the political distinctions of which part of Ireland people live in causes a few problems.
Personally having been born on a different continent of English and Scottish parents, brought up predominantly in England, lived most of my adult life in Scotland and supporting one at football and the other at rugby I haven't a clue how to describe myself but don't feel any personal resonance with any form of Nationalism and quite enjoy being part of the EU.
don't fell any personal resonance with any form of Nationalism and quite enjoy being part of the EU.
+1 I am also content to be a person of Russian extraction living in England, and with many relatives and friends living in France.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
T Bar wrote:
My own experience is that virtually everyone outwith the British Isles and quite a few within it use English and British virtually synonymously, though they may occasionally identify the Celtic areas individually. The Irish are more commonly identified individually than elsewhere though the political distinctions of which part of Ireland people live in causes a few problems.
Personally having been born on a different continent of English and Scottish parents, brought up predominantly in England, lived most of my adult life in Scotland and supporting one at football and the other at rugby I haven't a clue how to describe myself but don't feel any personal resonance with any form of Nationalism and quite enjoy being part of the EU.
Knew there was a Scottish background there. The only time I have heard outwith used regularly was when I worked in Scotland.
The only time I have heard outwith used regularly was when I worked in Scotland
Indeed. I use it, but only since living and working in Scotland for 5 years. Along with some other useful expressions including swithering, driech and "talk of the steamie". Along with other words picked up from kiSwahili in Kenya and elsewhere. I like nationalism, of any sort, less and less in my old age.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
!s alignment with UKIP going to help his cause? I regard them as rabid xenophobic racists so that's one less fan!
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sun 9-03-14 6:34; edited 1 time in total
After all it is free
After all it is free
^ Simon, it's simple enough, you don't have the full qualifications as required by French law.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Claude B wrote:
!s alignment with UKIP going to help his cause? I regard them as rabid xenophobic racists so that's one less fan!
Oh boy, that's a depressing turn of events for those of us who have been critical of the French position. SB - and UKIP come to that - don't seem to be able to decide whether the EU is too powerful or not powerful enough.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
So despite their having been on the "wrong side" itheir crimes against free competition in the ski business are just not on the radar.
