 Poster: A snowHead
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TTT, sure, but don't tar us all with the same brush! (Half my family is French, by the way.)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I use very little of the knowledge required to pass my professional exams but I use the skills that I learnt by having to pass those exams everyday and I believe it the same as a ski instructor.
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But did you have a small window of opertunity in you 20s and early 30s to pass those exams and was there a big risk that during those exams you might injur yourself such that you could be out of work for up to a year or even rendered unable to carry out you profession indefinately?
Ski instructors have to pass a lot of "exams" to get to ISTD, the Eurotest is just one of them, but it's the only one that acts as a barrier to entry rather than a relevant qualification. Its not like all of the exams are a walk over other than the Eurotest, as I understand it they are rock hard taking years of training and education, but the are attainable with hard work and parctice. This is not true for the Eurotest which as I understand it is almost impossible for anyone over the age of 35 to pass.
Add onto that the fact that you can't train for these exams while working as an aprentice in France unless you have the TT and work for the ESF (or a few others) and it all starts to be a bit mental.
But to counter that the L2 level does seem to be a bit low to be "qualified" to be let loose on the mountain without any requirement to train for a higher quialificiation or to be classed as an aprentice.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| TTT wrote: |
| In my experience there are plenty of local instructors with sufficiently good English to teach in English |
Not the point. I spend a fair proportion of my life grappling with international multi-language meetings and conference calls. It isn't how I want to spend my holiday too, thank you very much.
As for respect, how about respecting my choices without throwing out the "Little England" accusation? On which point you are barking up the wrong tree in my regard.
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I've been with a L2 British Instructor in Switzerland, he was actually pretty good, no complaints at all.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I have lots of instruction from an L2. He is more than 'pretty good'. 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I have see though people unwilling to go with a local instructor even though their English is perfectly good enough and they are both an amazing skier and a very good instructor. That for me is also little England mentality and more a problem with the consumer than EU law.
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I think this is more an inditement of the ESF's approach to ski instruction than people demonstrating a little England mentality. The ESF has a (well waranted IMO) repuation for large groups and a "follow me" approach to ski instruction that is facilitated by their dominant position as being the defacto "official" ski school for the French. It may be that the individual instructors are very good and have excellent language skills but the company as a whole is often best avoided if an alternative exists.
It may also be that the protectionism of the French in maintaining the TT and very few registered schools means that peoples experience with the ESF is more often than not with an appentice (who will be a great skier but not necessarily a great teacher). However if they go outside of this to a foreign school they are guaranteed an ISTD since these are the only peole that can be employed in France. So the standard will, by default, be higher in a foreign school, people see this and are willling to pay for it rather than save a bit of cash and run the gauntlet with the ESF. It probably isn't even a knowing choice. I'd bet 99% of punters aren't even aware this issue exists but they do see from their experience that they get a higher standard of instruction from a foreign school than the ESF.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Thu 6-03-14 11:29; edited 1 time in total
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Arguments on both sides regarding the Eurotest. I certainly would not like to do the exams now that I did when I was younger. I think more access for L3 is probably a sensible compromise.
I certainly was not saying that anyone using a Brit instructor has a little England mentality - I also use Brits myself. But I've also seen a refusal to use a foreign instructor just because they are foreign and that is certainly little England mentality and not the intention of the directive.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Flet©h,
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peoples experience with the ESF is more often than not with an appentice (who will be a great skier but not necessarily a great teacher)
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I haven't watched all of the video linked by Bode Swiller yet, but one of the points that guy makes towards the end, is the thousands of French instructors on the mountain who are long-term stagiaires.
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dogwatch,
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Not the point. I spend a fair proportion of my life grappling with international multi-language meetings and conference calls. It isn't how I want to spend my holiday too, thank you very much.
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I have never felt I was 'grappling' with language with French ski instructors. Maybe I've just been lucky but all the French ski instructors I've had have had good English, with a clear accent, and totally able to talk about other things (life, the universe, whatever) than just 'bend ze knees'.
The only instructor I've every had abroad who didn't have a good grasp of English was a crazy Italian brought in to cover our school group when our English speaking instructor went and did his knee in. That was an interesting week, mainly for his penchant for reasonably extreme off piste while having two beginners in his group rather than for his lack of English!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Pedantica wrote: |
Flet©h,
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peoples experience with the ESF is more often than not with an appentice (who will be a great skier but not necessarily a great teacher)
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I haven't watched all of the video linked by Bode Swiller yet, but one of the points that guy makes towards the end, is the thousands of French instructors on the mountain who are long-term stagiaires. |
20,000 French ski instructors and Jean Yves estimates that only 2,500 have passed Eurotest.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I had a week of 1 hour a day private lessons with my daughter with an ESF "English speaking" instructor a few years ago. I think we probably had to converse 50/50 English/French in the end and my French isn't wonderful. It was in a smaller more out of the way resort though and he was probably about the best they had.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| 20,000 French ski instructors and Jean Yves estimates that only 2,500 have passed Eurotest. |
How many have passed the old capa and timed descent ?
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You know it makes sense.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| Pedantica wrote: |
Flet©h,
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peoples experience with the ESF is more often than not with an appentice (who will be a great skier but not necessarily a great teacher)
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I haven't watched all of the video linked by Bode Swiller yet, but one of the points that guy makes towards the end, is the thousands of French instructors on the mountain who are long-term stagiaires. |
20,000 French ski instructors and Jean Yves estimates that only 2,500 have passed Eurotest. |
but others will have passed the Test de capacité.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| TTT wrote: |
| I've also seen a refusal to use a foreign instructor just because they are foreign |
People have literally said to you, the only reason I won't use X is because they are foreign (and by extension, I will use Y who is not as good because he is British)?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| TTT wrote: |
| Personally not keen on the little England mentality though as I think it is beneficial for people to experience different cultures which for me in a skiing context means also using local instructors |
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| Its a question of mutual respect |
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| I just don't like it when people moan just because something is different and are not willing to engage or impolite to locals are are not willing to say please or thank you in the local language or try local food - that is what I mean by little England mentality and I find it rude, ignorant and embarrassing. |
You seem to have constructed a stereotype as an imaginary interlocutor. Does anybody on this thread fit that stereotype, and if so, how do you demonstrate it?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Daughter is teaching out in Canada with BASI 1 & CSIA 2 and reckons it will take her at least another year if not 2 to get to the Canadian L3 exams. Not sure how that compares to the full BASI system but how are people supposed to get to higher levels without being able to do apprenticeships. It must be a full time 6 years min to get to the ISTD level.
Getting back to the original point though - don't all the instructors involved have all the correct quals? Or am I missing something.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'm not accusing anyone of anything on this thread but yes I have seen a number of people choose to go with a Brit rather than a local when the local was a higher standard skier, higher qualified and language was perfectly fine. I really don't think the Daily Mail or original Telegraph articles painted a good picture for the SB argument. Journalists are in the business of selling media rather than reporting news so they pander to the ignorance and prejudices of some people so yes I think based on my own experiences and what is reported in the news that there are some people who are supportive of the SB case based on nationality rather than the principles of the EU directive.
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The instructors involved in the court case do not have the correct qualifications required by the local regulations and the current draft of the MoU on recognition of qualifications submitted to the EU. The question is whether these regulations are valid under EU law or not. At least I think that is ultimately the case.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| The question is whether these regulations are valid under EU law or not. |
The relevant EU law being Directive 2005/36 (which has been transposed into French law).
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Agreed and it comes down to an interpretation of that directive. I was thinking that this was ultimately a legal question but as the directive refers to the general public interest and justified regulations it really is a very open issue given all the different interests.
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TTT, I think that's in the preamble (not time to check), which justifies the substantive clauses, so not sure how relevant that will be (usual disclaimers apply).
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| Jake43 wrote: |
Daughter is teaching out in Canada with BASI 1 & CSIA 2 and reckons it will take her at least another year if not 2 to get to the Canadian L3 exams. Not sure how that compares to the full BASI system but how are people supposed to get to higher levels without being able to do apprenticeships. It must be a full time 6 years min to get to the ISTD level.
Getting back to the original point though - don't all the instructors involved have all the correct quals? Or am I missing something. |
I know people who have got their level 3's after working a season after getting their level 2's in CSIA.
I also know two BASI level 2 Instructors who did GAP year CSIA level 2 courses and failed ....which I thought odd.
But most take at least 2 to 3 seasons honing their skills before getting their level 3.
Most time is spent practicing on the steeps, practicing short turns and in the bumps it seems.
As for getting level 4...that's a whole new ball game.
I'm open to correction, but I've been told on numerous occasions that Level 4 CSIA is the hardest to pass of any Nations structure...even more so than the French.
Less than 2% of all CSIA Instructors hold a level 4.
I'm sure someone on here will know differently though...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Brits can set up ski schools in France but not Austria
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how are they stopped from setting up in Austria?
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Laundryman - I think the reference to justified aptitude tests is in the body of the directive and the general public interest and being allowed to set own regulations is in the preamble. The part on aptitude tests also refers to periods of adaption as an alternative so not clear. I agree that the clauses of the directive take priority but normally where something is not clear reference would be made to the preamble to ascertain the intention of a clause in the main body of an agreement.
In Austria in addition to level 4 you need a local tourist body qualification and a mountain guide qualification to establish a ski school or you are allowed to bring your own guests with you for 2 weeks. I'm not aware of any Brit ski school having a ski school in Austria. Someone mentioned piste to powder and I see that they actually act as an agent for independent mountain guides.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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TTT, I expect that's the case.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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In Austria in addition to level 4 you need a local tourist body qualification and a mountain guide qualification
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And the local tourist body qualification is not easy for a foreigner to get, probably. Why do people complain so much about French barriers?
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pam w, seems that being a bit open to Brits but not quite as open as some would like is worse than being closed altogether
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You know it makes sense.
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Could be because:
(1) More people have more experience of French barriers than Austrian barriers.
(2) Brits hate the French and love the Austrians.
It's (1) in my case.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Generally a shorter season in Austria, lower rate for ski instruction, more group oriented than lucrative one-on-one privates, different profile of clientèle. And I suspect they are capable of being more protectionist than anyone.
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Poster: A snowHead
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More people have more experience of French barriers than Austrian barriers.
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because having a wider choice of ski instructors, and instructing styles, in France has given them a taste of how things could be - whereas in Austria it's a case of "if you've never had it you never miss it".  Lulled into passivity by a diet of Kaiserhodenknödel.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| TTT wrote: |
| I have seen a number of people choose to go with a Brit rather than a local when the local was a higher standard skier, higher qualified and language was perfectly fine. |
3 factors which to certain individuals might be relatively irrelevant compared to attitude, sympathy, flexibility in teaching style and sense of humour. It's not just lazy jingoism against Johnnie Onions you know. Customers might actually be entitled to an opinion based on past experience, observation of present day practice etc etc.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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(2) Brits hate the French and love the Austrians.
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Do they? I rarely hear a bad word against the French up here in Ecosse. Hopefully we can reinstate the Auld Alliance once we give the rest of the UK its independance.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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swiftoid, no, I don't believe they do. I put it as an option because it's a logically possible answer to the conundrum that you hear more complaints about France than Austria.
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MTFU is often what I need to hear
But I really meant nervous or confidence lacking older learners. To them an appropriate approach might be baby steps rather than significant progression as long as they are happy to come back the next day.
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fatbob, You see some brilliant reviews of british ski instructors like Easiski and IO skiing on here… but I'm sure some of the reviews have included being shouted at 
(I'm sure they, like all the instructors I've had from the various countries in which I've skied, do of course adapt their teaching style according to whether their students can take the MTFU approach or not).
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miranda, Fo sure there's no national limiter on being a good teacher of anything and perhaps the perception of British Instructors who do teach in France is showed because they do tend to be very dedicated and good at the job. If the market was flooded with newly scraped BASI 2 passes delivering a variable quality " product" perhaps it would be a non debate as everyone would be able to see a spectrum of great to mediocre regardless of accent or uniform.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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fatbob, yes, I have no doubt that British instructors working in France are pretty damned good because they have had to be very passionate and hardworking either get their ISTD or to get their stagiaire status in a French school - sounds like neither is an easy task. So this is just an amusing anecdote and certainly not an implication that the teaching level wasn't really good (because it was), but it did make me laugh when I recently had a brief lesson with a British instructor… he explained something to me and it was obvious that I'd totally misunderstood what he'd been getting at… so he said "ok stop. Don't say any more. Just follow me' (as I say, he was a good teacher and that 'follow me' bit was necessary as I obviously wasn't getting the verbal explanation).
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once we give the rest of the UK its independance
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....thanks for a fresh approach...rUK will have to apply to join the EU ( or for many there will be no need to waste any time on such a thing ) , ask Scotland if it agrees to a monetary union so as to keep using the £ etc etc
And then there would be certainty as to Brit ski instructors working in France ie they couldn't . All these threads would be about Scots ski instructors...
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FAQ
