 Poster: A snowHead
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no, there all long time residents who have had property/land in the families for generations and so have mortage free homes......
good skiiers/snowboarders and skate boarders though!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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pam w, Yes we've had the discussion before, the problem is the statement that "french ski instructors are highly paid" when it ought to read "french full-cert instructors are highly paid at the expense of their stagiere colleagues". The stagieres are cannon fodder and paid minimum wage.
Flet©h, Exactly, my opposition to the Eurotest does not mean I want a race to the bottom in standards and wages; in fact the inverse, set the bar even higher but by using relevant criteria (language skills, teaching ability, proven genuine motivation to teach), rather than ex-racer old-boy shoe-in favouritism. Unfortunately, being realistic, it'll never happen.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Thanks fatbob. So, the difference in, say, Austria and Italy is that you can get a lower level teaching job much more easily than in France but you won't earn as much money. Presumably you would still earn more money as an ISTD (that's having the Eurotest, right?) in those countries than if you only had BASI L2 or 3 because Austria and Italy are two of the Eurotest nations?
Oh, ok, just seen shep's bit about stagiaires earning bug all in France too.
So… if you don't earn anything as a stagiaire in France, can you not just work in Austria or Italy (and not earn much but have a much better chance of getting a job) until you are ISTD and then move over to France so you can earn more money?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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emwmarine, just out of interest, is your skiing at an equivalent level to the players at Premiership rugby clubs? If you ski lessons do you use get them from race coaches for World Cup skiers?
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| Quote: |
| France, Austria etc were given a derogation by the EU to impose the test on Ski Instructors from other EU countries. |
The only French derogation I know of were made in 2000, against Directive 92/51/EEC, itself promulgated in 1992. That directive has been explicitly repealed and superseded by Directive 2005/36/EC, to which I know of no derogation and which has, I believe, been transcribed faithfully into French law.
Even assuming the derogation were relevant, it does not mention the concept of the Eurotest, or Test Technique, nor any other specific test. It says France may impose a test on applicants whose training displays (Article 1) "substantial differences"; but that (Article 2) "France may not consider that there is a substantial difference without first having verified whether the migrant can lay claim to professional experience, and whether that experience may wholly or partly compensate for the difference"; and further that (Article 3) "each request for recognition must be the subject of a reasoned decision specifying in particular the substantial differences existing between the training received by the migrant and the French training".
I am not aware that these procedures, whereby any test is the end result of an evaluation of an individual's training and professional experience and not a pre-condition for consideration, were ever applied according to the law, when the derogation and its underlying directive were the law.
Be that as it may, the derogation is no longer relevant. We now have to look to Article 13 of Directive 2005/36/EC.
| Quote: |
If access to or pursuit of a regulated profession in a host Member State is contingent upon possession of specific professional qualifications, the competent authority of that Member State shall permit access to and pursuit of that profession, under the same conditions as apply to its nationals, to applicants possessing the attestation of competence or evidence of formal qualifications required by another Member State in order to gain access to and pursue that profession on its territory.
Attestations of competence or evidence of formal qualifications shall satisfy the following conditions:
(a) they shall have been issued by a competent authority in a Member State, designated in accordance with the legislative, regulatory or administrative provisions of that Member State;
(b) they shall attest a level of professional qualification at least equivalent to the level immediately prior to that which is required in the host Member State, as described in Article 11. |
I believe the 'levels' referred to are those of the European Qualifications Framework (EQF).
I further believe that the French diplôme d'état, required for a French person to teach skiing in France, is classified as EQF Level 4, as is the BASI L3. Yes, L3, not L4 (ISTD)! BASI L2 is an EQF L3, so being "immediately prior" to EQF L4, the French authorities are required to accept that too.
There is a potential get out under Article 6, with language harking to the obsolete derogation:
| Quote: |
| Where there is a substantial difference between the professional qualifications of the service provider and the training required in the host Member State, to the extent that that difference is such as to be harmful to public health or safety, the host Member State shall give the service provider the opportunity to show, in particular by means of an aptitude test, that he has acquired the knowledge or competence lacking. |
However, it would presumably be difficult for the "substantial difference" to be sustained where BASI L3 is classified at the same EQF level as the Dipôme d'Etat and L2 at the EQF level "immediately prior". Nor, as far as I am aware, have the French authorities met with the procedural requirements in the Directive would would enable them to require an aptitude test for an individual declaring their intention to work in France. And, whether the Eurotest would be applicable in these circumstances, has presumably not been tested legally.
There may be other French or European laws that are relevant. If so, I'd certainly appreciate links to them and extracts from them, as above.
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& how many former internationals are coaching at every junior rugby club around the world? The sport would be nowhere without the bottom tier badges or dads doing minis etc
(yep I know there are a number of internationals in local club coaching and it's one of the great joys of the sport that many are doing it voluntarily for the love of the game)
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laundryman, blimey. Are you planning a second career in the law? Impressive stuff! 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| emwmarine wrote: |
but I do actually believe that the best at a sport make the best instructors. Take Rugby, pretty much every Premiership club coach is an ex-world class player. They don't just take any level 4 coach an employ them, they see that to teach excellence you need to have experienced it yourself. |
Your logic is flawed. The best coaches may well be ex top level players, it doesn't follow that all top level player make great coaches. The problem with the Eurotest is it presents and automatic and easy entry into a follow-on career post-racing, which has little or no relevance to whether the person is any good, or at all interested in, teaching.
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emwmarine, shep, it has become clear to me, over years of following this debate (the legalities of which interest me, I know very little about ski coaching) that you will never get the two sides to agree. Some people believe that only the best practitioners can teach. Others (including me) believe that being amongst the best at doing something doesn't make you a good teacher. Ho hum. That's not relevant to European laws on protectionism, though.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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laundryman, all good stuff, however
| Quote: |
| I further believe that the French diplôme d'état, required for a French person to teach skiing in France, is classified as EQF Level 4, as is the BASI L3. Yes, L3, not L4 (ISTD)! BASI L2 is an EQF L3, so being "immediately prior" to EQF L4, the French authorities are required to accept that too. |
I think it's a bit early confirm those qualification equivalencies. BASI qualifications have not yet been fully brought in to the EQF - that work is currently being done and is unlikely to be complete before the autumn. My understanding is that there is an expectation that the equivalencies will be as you describe, but I think it's too early to make that case.
Then there's the whole debate around temporary worker rights...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Pedantica, not sure the law would satisfy my creative streak. 
rob@rar, thanks, I hadn't realised that was provisional.
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laundryman, fair comment - I have yet to meet a lawyer who could be described as truly creative. 
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You know it makes sense.
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shep, are French full-cert instructors really paid that much more than Austrian ones? and if so, how come, given that lessons are no more expensive? And if it's "at the expense of the trainees" then Miranda's question is pertinent - why not be a better paid trainee in Austria, where you can get a job with pretty lowly qualifications, whilst you gain the higher level certification needed to get one of those cushy and well-paid French jobs.
Can't see why trainee ski instructors (given that there are so many competent people desperately wanting to do the job) shouldn't be paid the minimum wage, really. Somebody earlier in the thread was arguing for competition leading to fairer pricing. Young sailing instructors get paid practically nothing, too, like people working with horses etc. There's an ad in my village shop for riders wanted at a local racing stable - what's the bet they get the minimum wage?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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laundryman, the work is being done by Edinburgh University. I was in touch with the guy running the project last year and my guess is that the levels will be as you describe, but AIUI BASI qualifications (at least L3 and L4, I think L2 Alpine might be certified) do not appear in the EQF.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| shep wrote: |
| emwmarine wrote: |
but I do actually believe that the best at a sport make the best instructors. Take Rugby, pretty much every Premiership club coach is an ex-world class player. They don't just take any level 4 coach an employ them, they see that to teach excellence you need to have experienced it yourself. |
Your logic is flawed. The best coaches may well be ex top level players, it doesn't follow that all top level player make great coaches. The problem with the Eurotest is it presents and automatic and easy entry into a follow-on career post-racing, which has little or no relevance to whether the person is any good, or at all interested in, teaching. |
The very best football coaches seem often to be ones who have been at or near the top flight, but who have struggled there, or have been journeymen at best. The theory goes they are better able to empathise with and motivate the players who must struggle to improve; whereas the likes of Messi, Ronaldo, probably could not teach their instinctive magic once their physical powers have waned.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
In 2000, the Commission adopted decisions under the previous Directive 92/51/EEC(3) granting derogations to four Member States to require applicants to undergo an aptitude test for a number of sports professions, including ski instructors. These decisions are however still valid, as indicated in the Commission's report of 22 October 2010 on the transposition and implementation of the Professional Qualifications Directive.
Commission Staff Working Document on the transposition and implementation of the Professional Qualifications Directive, SEC(2010)1292.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| rob@rar wrote: |
Then there's the whole debate around temporary worker rights... |
skimotteret asked a question about this at last June's BASI forum. still awaiting a reply from BASI
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Reaility is a level 2 is good enough for most beginners and level 3 good enough for the vast majority of punters but all the instructors who have done the Eurotest say they have learnt a lot from the experience and they are great to ski with and their observational skills are amazing. I'm really on the fence as can see both sides of the story. The Eurotest surely encourages excellence though and allows people to make a decent living as an instructor. I'm not convinced that it impacts the consumer - if it was a big problem then people would not go to France. There is also an amount that people are willing to pay. The Eurotest does improve the standard of instructors I'm sure but does not mean they are necessarily a good instructor but ultimately you don't get repeat business if you are not a good instructor. Both sides seem to portry the arguments as some moral crusade while in reality both sides have personnel interests at stake.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| emwmarine, just out of interest, is your skiing at an equivalent level to the players at Premiership rugby clubs? If you ski lessons do you use get them from race coaches for World Cup skiers? |
No, I am probably at the Conference League South West 4, playing for the 4th XV level of Rugby and skiing.
But - I did get coached by Pat Lam for a while whilst my rugby climbed temporarily slightly above that level - and it was a revelation.
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TTT, but how many of the average one or two week a year skiers actually take lessons? Not so many in my observation... so this whole argument is relatively moot for the vast majority of holiday skiers.
I don't know about fully certified instructors but when I briefly flirted with the idea of signing up with ESF as a stagiare, I think (this is 1996, so bear inflation in mind) the best I could expect in a good season was about GBP 5,000. And that would mostly have involved teaching cost centres, probably in the rain, when no-one else wanted to work.
(PS cost centres = kids...)
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Fri 21-02-14 16:23; edited 1 time in total
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Scotland 2003 world cup? Maybe 3rd XV level now but back then good enough for a quarter final - don't be so hard on yourself
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| fatbob wrote: |
| Scotland 2003 world cup? Maybe 3rd XV level now but back then good enough for a quarter final - don't be so hard on yourself |
Sadly not, it was before he took on that job. But he was an inspirational coach with a huge knowledge of the game and what worked and what didn't work.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
| I did get coached by Pat Lam for a while whilst my rugby climbed temporarily slightly above that level - and it was a revelation. |
The comaprision with competitive sport isn't really valid. Skiing for 99.9% of people skiing isn't a competitive sport. Rubgy and football always are, no matter how crap you are.
An aspirational ski racer may benefit from having the skiing equivalent of Pat Lam teaching them, giving them insight into what it takes to be a ski racer as well as technical tips relevant to going fast etc but for most skiing isn't like this. The ski instruction requirements of your average skier would be better compared to learning to drive.
When learning to drive you don't need to learn how to lap the nurburgring within 10% of Lewis Hamiliton, you need to be taught the correct technique to drive your car safely and in control. This is best done by someone who knows how to teach, knows the technique for correctly driving a car, knows how to keep you safe while you are learning etc. You may even progress to advanced driving but the requirements are the same, just at a higher level. At no point is it relevant if your instructor has the ability to drive nearly as fast as Lewis Hamilton and the experience of doing so.
The requirement for skiing is the same. You may get more and more advanced but its very unlikely this will be competitive (unless you are race training to pass the Eurotest ironically!)
Maybe this is partly where the view of the ESF that the Eurotest being important comes from. At their heart they train French kids to become racers so they see skiing as a competitive sport.
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| Pedantica wrote: |
| emwmarine, shep, it has become clear to me, over years of following this debate (the legalities of which interest me, I know very little about ski coaching) that you will never get the two sides to agree. Some people believe that only the best practitioners can teach. Others (including me) believe that being amongst the best at doing something doesn't make you a good teacher. Ho hum. That's not relevant to European laws on protectionism, though. |
Haha, absolutely right! Don't know why I let myself keep being drawn into these things  .
pam w
| Quote: |
shep, are French full-cert instructors really paid that much more than Austrian ones? and if so, how come, given that lessons are no more expensive? And if it's "at the expense of the trainees" then Miranda's question is pertinent - why not be a better paid trainee in Austria, where you can get a job with pretty lowly qualifications, whilst you gain the higher level certification needed to get one of those cushy and well-paid French jobs.
Can't see why trainee ski instructors (given that there are so many competent people desperately wanting to do the job) shouldn't be paid the minimum wage, really. Somebody earlier in the thread was arguing for competition leading to fairer pricing. Young sailing instructors get paid practically nothing, too, like people working with horses etc. There's an ad in my village shop for riders wanted at a local racing stable - what's the bet they get the minimum wage? |
Who said that? Do you mean someone else's comment that only french instructors can make a living wage? I know nothing of pay rates in Austria, sorry. Many brits are taking the path Miranda suggests, I would imagine the reason most french stagieres don't is because they don't want to travel, learn German, or don't care about the low wages since they're either loaded "children of the valley" or are taking the long view that their turn will come when they get their diplome.
I've no problem with apprentices being paid minimum wage, so long as it's a level playing field for non-french ski schools. Right now the ESF can undercut the non-french schools because they employ three stagieres for every full-cert. The only unfair result of allowing non-french schools to do the same would be that those schools run by the cheaters that sold the BASI membership down the river in the first place would make even more money. But c'est la vie I 'spose  .
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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The anti Eurotest aguments could be targted at pretty much any exam though, generally though exams encourage excellence and people learn as a result of going through the process and yes they act as a barrier to which makes an occupation worthwhile.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Fair point that moot point for most punters and my experience is that it is not price but not something that they want to invest the time in
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| Quote: |
The anti Eurotest aguments could be targted at pretty much any exam though, generally though exams encourage excellence and people learn as a result of going through the process and yes they act as a barrier to which makes an occupation worthwhile.
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Not really.
Most exams will test your ability to do the thing you are going to do. Ski intstructors aren't going to ski gates really fast for a living. They are going to teach/instruct. It would make more sense to have an exam in teaching than skiing fast. You could still make this exam rock hard to ensure the occupation stays "worthwhile".
It's like forcing accountants to take exams in doing really fast mental arithmetic rather than take accountancy exams.
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You know it makes sense.
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I use very little of the knowledge I gained from taking professional exams but use the skills I learnt from the process of taking those exams all the time. I suspect it is the same for most occupational exams. I think the same applies to the Eurotest from what I've read from those who done the Eurotest. Taking the exams is also a proof of a certain high standard of capability and does act as a barrier to entry which mskes the occupation worthwhile - again hte Eurotest.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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"Making the occupation worthwhile" = "Artificially inflating the prices" = "Ripping off the consumer"
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Poster: A snowHead
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TTT, training as a fighter pilot does not make the occupation of airline pilot worthwhile. That occupation is worthwhile because because lots of people want to travel long distances (relatively) quickly and safely. And while many fighter pilots make good commercial pilots (and probably nearly all could) it is not a training that is remotely necessary for the occupation of airline pilot. The same logic applies to any profession. It is the demand that makes an occupation worthwhile.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| finestgreen wrote: |
| "Making the occupation worthwhile" = "Artificially inflating the prices" = "Ripping off the consumer" |
[tangent]
I disagree. There is a price point in any field at which it is not possible for practitioners to make a living practising their occupation. At which point, leaving aside the independently wealthy, the only option is to work part-time while making ends meet with another job. That dilutes the time spent building and consolidating your professional skills and experience. Which IMV short-changes the customer. Whilst customers are never going to argue with lower prices, I don't feel it's in anyone's long-term interest for prices to be so low that an occupation ceases to be financially viable for the very people it relies on to function
[/tangent]
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'm not denying that making the occupation worthwhile inflates prices in some circumstances but it does also act to protect the consumeror or in some cases increase the quality of the product that they receive. I suspect some of us can think of another well known example where someone is not of such a high standard and their consumers are unwittingly being "ripped off" by receiving a lower quality product for the same price as they are not protected by the French Eurotest.
Obviously an occupation is not worthwhile without demand but obviously price is also determined by supply. While I believe that lower levels are fully capable of teaching most punters I do believe based on professional expereince and ski experience that the Eurotest increases the overall standard of the ski instructor profession. I do not feel ripped off as I appreciate the time and expense incurred and knowledge in getting to that standard whether directly, or indirectly as a result of the experience they have passed on to others. Without that barrier to entry it would not be worthwhile to achieve high standards.
Furthermore, I don't think a local would consider the Eurotest an especially high standard given there is an 18% alloawance and a local racer would say within 10% is good but nothing special. They would consider themselves commerical pilots which also still have high entry barriers not fighter pilots.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
"Making the occupation worthwhile" = "Artificially inflating the prices" = "Ripping off the consumer"
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How about some evidence, finestgreen? Who is ripping of whom? And how? Lessons in French ski schools are no more expensive than elsewhere and a lot cheaper than some. And in general ski lessons are much cheaper than, for example, having a massage or having somebody throw mud at you and call it therapy.
As for kids and beginners being taught by cheap "stagiares" they are arguably better qualified in France than youngsters with the lowest level of qualification in Austria and Japan - some will be excellent, some pretty duff.
If they do the job well and don't stoop to underhand ways of excluding others (which I believe happens in both France and Austria) I have no problem with "sons and daughters of the valley" working as ski instructors, especially if it makes their staying in the region and farming financially viable. Without the year round agriculture, the cows, the pastures they keep clear with their grazing, the flowers in the summer, the domestic architecture, the essence of the skiing environment in many places could be lost forever.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| shep wrote: |
Who said that? Do you mean someone else's comment that only french instructors can make a living wage? I know nothing of pay rates in Austria, sorry. Many brits are taking the path Miranda suggests, I would imagine the reason most french stagieres don't is because they don't want to travel, learn German, or don't care about the low wages since they're either loaded "children of the valley" or are taking the long view that their turn will come when they get their diploma. |
I don't know any loaded "children of the valley" but there might well be some on "the other side" which is the posh bit of the domain where SBS is (I know my friends here were saying that when they went to middle school in Megeve, they were suddenly very aware that the Giettois were noticeable for being in old, hand me down clothes). I think you have to learn English now as part of the instructor exams (certainly one of the local farmer's daughters who's a stagiaire in Megeve was saying English is compulsory there now).
To me as a Brit it would make sense to go work in Austria/Italy/Germany until you have ISTD and can take your pick given that stagiaires in France earn so little - people on here are always saying how much lower the cost of living is in those countries relative to France.
| shep wrote: |
| The only unfair result of allowing non-french schools to do the same would be that those schools run by the cheaters that sold the BASI membership down the river in the first place would make even more money. |
It's strange that the other British schools don't support SB if the upshot would be that they could take on cheap stagiaires and make even more money… guess they've done some sums and figured out they're still better off with their monopoly?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| miranda wrote: |
| To me as a Brit it would make sense to go work in Austria/Italy/Germany until you have ISTD and can take your pick given that stagiaires in France earn so little - people on here are always saying how much lower the cost of living is in those countries relative to France. |
I guess rates of pay is not the only factor. Other aspects will also be important, for example are the ski schools in whatever country you would like to work looking to recruit British instructors; what are the local employment regulations; are there enough British clients taking lessons so you will spend at least some of your time teaching in your native language; are there other ex-pats teaching in the same resort so there is a community you can join for socialising, sharing accommodation, etc.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
"Making the occupation worthwhile" = "Artificially inflating the prices" = "Ripping off the consumer"
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How about some evidence, finestgreen? Who is ripping of whom? And how? Lessons in French ski schools are no more expensive than elsewhere and a lot cheaper than some. And in general ski lessons are much cheaper than, for example, having a massage or having somebody throw mud at you and call it therapy.
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Evidence? I was responding to somebody explicitly saying that they thought the eurotest was justified on the basis that it kept instructor incomes higher that they otherwise would. That's a rip-off of consumers who don't want or need an instructor who can ski a race course quickly.
(Maybe there aren't potential non-eurotest instructors who would be willing to undercut those who are currently qualified, but it seems unlikely to me and even if it is the case the intent is clearly price inflation)
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| Quote: |
Maybe there aren't potential non-eurotest instructors who would be willing to undercut those who are currently qualified
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 There are plenty of non-eurotest instructors out there, especially in countries other than France where the entry level is lower. But the prices of lessons seem to be the same, or higher.
So you'll have to come up with some other theory.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| miranda wrote: |
| To me as a Brit it would make sense to go work in Austria/Italy/Germany until you have ISTD and can take your pick given that stagiaires in France earn so little - people on here are always saying how much lower the cost of living is in those countries relative to France. |
I guess rates of pay is not the only factor. Other aspects will also be important, for example are the ski schools in whatever country you would like to work looking to recruit British instructors; what are the local employment regulations; are there enough British clients taking lessons so you will spend at least some of your time teaching in your native language; are there other ex-pats teaching in the same resort so there is a community you can join for socialising, sharing accommodation, etc. |
Yes, I guess there are always compromises in life. Surely Austrian/German/Italian schools must recruit Brits, though, or there'd be an outcry on here about protectionism in those countries. I guess it would be interesting to see the reaction of those fully qualified British instructors already teaching in France if it became much easier for non ISTD Brits to work there - I'm not talking about the historic "cheaters" but those who have recently qualified… would they welcome their non-ISTD compatriots with open arms, or would they feel a little protective of their patch, given the hoops they jumped through to get to it?
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| miranda wrote: |
| Yes, I guess there are always compromises in life. |
Yes, obviously that's right. I was simply saying that pay is not the only factor in why Brit instructors tend to be concentrated in some resorts.
Ultimately I don't think an outcry here on snowHeads or even amongst the instructor community should be the determining factor in who gets to work where. I'd quite like the laws and regulations to be applied transparently and consistently across EU countries.
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FAQ
Idiotic comment of the day goes to...
, it's good to play back at all the anti - french stuff on here sometimes.
