 Poster: A snowHead
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Pedantica, Nice looking planks. Is that you in the photo 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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morningglory, 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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geeo,
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except a good skier can ski with their boots undone
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Indeed. Apologies for not being clear. I did not mean the stance you adopt for skiing. My point is that if your body's normal stance is not "normal" you cannot ski well. Pronated feet, supinated feet, sticking out feet, sticking in feet etc all mean that the skis do not respond as they should to the normal movements that a skier makes to make them turn. These conditions can be corrected by orthotics, which is not the same as boots which fit. Believe me. I learnt this the hard way. Years and years of boot fitters and instructors failed to tell me to try orthotics. Not that I am bitter .... 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| queen bodecia wrote: |
| you just need to crank them over a bit more, ahem... |
Ahem… yes, I think it’s the un-cranking at the end of the turn that’s taking me so long.
Gorilla – I wouldn’t say my thighs burn. They’re the part of me that gets most tired, what with the extending and compressing through turns, but by and large I’m working them aerobically, so no lactic acid buildup. If they start to burn, I stop for a minute, because once they get tired I won’t even be able to put in a 6m turn. If ‘thighs burning’ is a proxy for leaning back, then I certainly have a tendency to lean back, which I struggle against, but my poor edge-to-edge seems to be the same no matter where my weight is.
DB and Peterkct Since last skiing the Scramblers,
1) I’ve changed boot from a beginnerish Salomon Evo to Head S110 which leans forward more at the cuff.
2) I’ve also measured the 2 skis and the Scrambler has the heel 6mm lower than the toe, whereas the Punisher has the heel 7.4mm higher than the toe. By angling my shins forward, I would expect both this and the boots to keep my bodyweight forward which would be good. My posture on the Punishers feels a lot better than on the Scramblers where I felt that my knee was being held above my ankle.
3) I’ve been given orthotics to correct over-pronation. My shoes used to wear on the outside of the heel and under the big toe, now they wear evenly across the sole. Also my foot now points forwards when I walk instead of out at an angle.
So there have been lots of changes but I think I’ve had long enough to adapt and they should all be helping me ski rather than hindering.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
my poor edge-to-edge seems to be the same no matter where my weight is.
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 edging the skis will have a lot more effect if your weight is forward - that's what makes them turn.
Pedantica - I've been enjoying my skis, which are the same as yours. When I had them serviced at my local shop before coming to this course in Les2Alpes the guy wondered if they were a bit stiff for "la poudreuse" but bent them in a muscular fashion and said they were fine - they're not too stiff, and if they were mine (at 165) would probably be a bit long for me. Charlotte wondered that, but I think I just need to get on top of them a bit more - the problem is more with my technique than the skis, I think. But yes, I guess any wider ski is harder work to get on edge - I am pretty good on one ski on my piste skis but find the wider ones harder work.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| xr39q wrote: |
Thank you all for replying.
I think clarky999 best sums up my view.
| clarky999 wrote: |
| pam w wrote: |
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Maybe try something a little softer, and either shorter or more rockered.
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and lessons? |
Well, yeah
But he'll want something to ski on in the lesson! |
I think the Punishers are the wrong ski for me at the moment, and for my lessons, I’ll want something a little softer and shorter. I don’t think it’s the turn radius – the Scramblers are 15.6m, the Punishers are 16m, but if the Scramblers are softer, I guess they’ll bend more in the turns. They’re 2011/2012 Punishers, so 89mm across the boot. This is only 13mm wider than the Scramblers, but do I need something narrower?
So far, nobody’s commented on my shortlist for replacement skis. Is it that they’re all much of a muchness or is someone who can’t ski Punishers so alien that you can’t predict which of them might suit me? |
Whitedot Ragnaroks?
I can get mine down a 3 metre track - why would you want to turn anyway? 
On a slightly more sensible note, you could post this same question in the bend ze knees section and get the right answer.
You should be able to do braquage on any sensible intermediate mid-range all mountain ski, down a groomed run with minimal traversing. With a rockered ski it's even easier but makes you lazy as they are so easy to pivot.
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| xr39q wrote: |
DB and Peterkct Since last skiing the Scramblers,
1) I’ve changed boot from a beginnerish Salomon Evo to Head S110 which leans forward more at the cuff.
2) I’ve also measured the 2 skis and the Scrambler has the heel 6mm lower than the toe, whereas the Punisher has the heel 7.4mm higher than the toe. By angling my shins forward, I would expect both this and the boots to keep my bodyweight forward which would be good. My posture on the Punishers feels a lot better than on the Scramblers where I felt that my knee was being held above my ankle.
3) I’ve been given orthotics to correct over-pronation. My shoes used to wear on the outside of the heel and under the big toe, now they wear evenly across the sole. Also my foot now points forwards when I walk instead of out at an angle.
So there have been lots of changes but I think I’ve had long enough to adapt and they should all be helping me ski rather than hindering.
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People prefer different ramp angles.
Maybe try/rent a ski similar to the punishers but with a binding ramp angle setup similar to the scramblers and see how you get on with it.
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xr39q, You are looking for a quick fix to a problem that cannot be fixed by simply buying more gear. Sure at this stage the Punishers at 182 seem to be too much ski for you, but getting another pair won't be a miracle solution. Your thighs are getting tired possibly because you are used to muscle the skis around, which surely was easier with shorter/softer Salomons but Punishers got you found out. It doesn't matter which skis you get, they are all good, take your pick, better rent whatever resort shop recommends for you goals, but take a lesson or a few, even with your older Salomons. 9 weeks in 13 years is not enough mileage to get you to advanced intermediate stage, don't try to get too far too fast, it's not how it works with skiing for 95% of people.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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xr39q, as an alternative ski, you could try Rossi soul 7. 106 waist, but very easy to turn and quick from edge to edge. While you are working on technique though, you might be better off hiring intermediate piste skis, then transfer the technique to your Punishers.
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xr39q, I had a pair of skis once that were wider and longer and stiffer than what I'd been on before. Following being dumped on my backside 3 times in the first 80 yards I nearly gave up and went to the hire shop. However, I didn't and persisted with them what I found was that they didn't accept sloppy technique, I had to ski trying to do what I had been taught, they didn't take any short-cuts. Some more lessons and a bit of determination (I got cross with them) and they turned out to be great to ski. Maybe an instructor would be able to help if you explained the problem during a lesson on those skis.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Yes never_summer, I was looking for a quick fix, which is why I posted in Equipment rather than Technique. I was also aware that there’s nothing intrinsically wrong with the Punishers and that any replacement might just be the same. It’s been very useful to hear what you all have to say and I think lessons on the Punishers are the way to go. That way the problem will be clearly visible to the instructor, rather than me trying to describe it, and they will be able to make the necessary adjustments to my technique.
DB – One thing I didn’t like with the Scramblers was my posture. I blamed my boots (having never heard of ramp), but the toe-up bindings wouldn’t have helped. I feel much better on the Punishers, even if I can’t ski anymore. That said, if I did want to change the ramp, is it a question of getting a shop to take the binding off and shim it to the correct height?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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xr39q,
Yes people will put shims under bindings to adjust ramp angle. Some people make adjustments inside the boot. I have the same binding on two different pairs of skis.
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To offer some constructive criticism xr39q....
I think you need to reassess your skiing ability. If you're struggling on Punishers at that length, then you probably ought to seek some lessons. Or just try and get some more ski time in. Doesn't matter if its on dry mate, fake snow or an alp. The more time you spend on the skis, the better you get. Given that you're struggling to make a soft and playful ski like the punisher turn, I'd downgrade your ability somewhat, you're probably a base intermediate, which absolutely fine; everyone has to go through the same learning process.
Back on point, Punishers really shouldn't need much put into them at all... They have a short turn radius, they're not fat underfoot, and the turn initiation is amongst the easiest of any ski i've ever had on foot. I've literally had mine everywhere, without issues (bar speed chatter).. i've taught in them, spun them through the park, skied slalom (that was interesting), and and taken them down untold numbers of interesting and exciting couloirs far from the beaten track. The point i'm trying to make is, the ski will do anything you can make it do.
I've now upgraded to a couple of sets of whitedots (the Preachers/and the Redeemers) and I can certainly state that they require a fair amount more effort (BUT THEY ARE INCREDIBLE). These are both much bigger skis, longer, far fatter, and I can still get them both to jump around from edge to edge with ease.
My advice... STICK IT OUT ON THE PUNISHERS. I honestly can't recommend them enough as an intermediate, do anything, go anywhere ski. The only real issue I had with them was the stiffness, or lack thereof. They chatter horrendously at speed, far less stiff than my first set of skis which were a set of blizzard carving skis. Back on point, my skiing improved tenfold whilst on the punishers, to the point where i became and instructor and started competing in a variety of events. STICK THEM OUT.
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You know it makes sense.
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Peterkct, slight thread drift. A quick edge to edge ski are my FIS slaloms, at about 66mm under foot. There is not a cat's chance that a 106mm ski can be quick edge to edge. It may feel like it, but nope, no chance.
Anyway back on topic, sounds like xr39q, has discovered a few more pointers to undeveloped technique, which is good, if I am sure, frustrating. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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under a new name, Of course. I missed out an adverb such as "surprisingly".
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Poster: A snowHead
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This could be gear, it could be technique. It isn't clear and none of us has seen you ski. If your set up is dumping you in the backseat - which is possible - then no amount of lessons is going to fully resolve that issue. Conversely, if your technique is not where it needs to be then there is no point mucking around with gear. If it is both then you need to fix the gear first. If it is the gear then it could be something as simple as a toe lift under the binding or making the boot more upright. There are people on the forum who can help you with that. It is unlikely to be the ski itself - I spent years on the Mission, which practically turns itself.
As a quick check, where does your knee go when you are in the bindings and clicked in on the flat? The first thing to grasp here is that knee too far forward = butt sticking out to counter-balance.
You might want to buy Mark Elling's book on this stuff, which is called something like the Expert Skier, which explains this better than I could. I am in the minority of people who needs gear modification in order to ski at a reasonable level owing to weird biomechanics (poor dorsiflexion, overly large calf muscles). The book helped me realise it wasn't just about having the right toys, it was having the toys that are right for your body.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Check where the bindings are mounted, I had some punishers (didn't use for long) and there was I think 7cm marked range for the binding mount. When I first skied them the bindings were boot centred (good for freestyle) but not for me, had the bindings remounted. But having said that they were easy to ski and pretty good on piste.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Maybe you've got the wrong skis, Scott Flatterers might be a bit more forgiving.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Fri 24-01-14 13:56; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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rogg, you beat me to it.
i was thinking the answer might be in the name.
Maybe this guy will know the reason.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Sounds like you're there with sticking it out on the Punishers. Run a true bar or other definitely straight edge along the bases to check nothing weird is going on with being edge high etc and check for hanging burrs on the edges, just in case.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| waynos wrote: |
| Check where the bindings are mounted, I had some punishers (didn't use for long) and there was I think 7cm marked range for the binding mount. When I first skied them the bindings were boot centred (good for freestyle) but not for me, had the bindings remounted. But having said that they were easy to ski and pretty good on piste. |
Good point, it could be that the bindings weren't mounted on the centre line and/or they were second hand but the boot size of the owners was considerably different.
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| gorilla wrote: |
This could be gear, it could be technique. It isn't clear and none of us has seen you ski. If your set up is dumping you in the backseat - which is possible - then no amount of lessons is going to fully resolve that issue. Conversely, if your technique is not where it needs to be then there is no point mucking around with gear. If it is both then you need to fix the gear first. If it is the gear then it could be something as simple as a toe lift under the binding or making the boot more upright. There are people on the forum who can help you with that. It is unlikely to be the ski itself - I spent years on the Mission, which practically turns itself.
As a quick check, where does your knee go when you are in the bindings and clicked in on the flat? The first thing to grasp here is that knee too far forward = butt sticking out to counter-balance.
You might want to buy Mark Elling's book on this stuff, which is called something like the Expert Skier, which explains this better than I could. I am in the minority of people who needs gear modification in order to ski at a reasonable level owing to weird biomechanics (poor dorsiflexion, overly large calf muscles). The book helped me realise it wasn't just about having the right toys, it was having the toys that are right for your body. |
You could be right of course, but really you should be able to pivot skis down the fall line no matter how they are tuned, set-up, stiffness, radius, etc if you have half decent technique, so claiming you can't turn due to the skis really sounds like an excuse. Yes you might be able to initiate turn, hold an edge, carve, pivot, ski tricky snow, etc better due to any of the above ski issues, but if you can't do it at all in reasonable snow then technique is the issue.
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Definitely stick with them; changing kit is going to do nothing to help in the long run.
I have a pair of Punishers bought last year, the 183s, and I absolutely love them. So easy to turn on piste and they do everything else I want to do on the mountain.
They also look rather sexual (well, the 2012-13 model anyway).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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For what it's worth I'd stick with the Punishers and work them harder. I suspect that you have been having it a bit easy with your previous option(s) but as outlined above you are going to have to work it harder off piste, which includes in the tight turns. The skis you opted for are fine for the job and I suspect it is the heavier weight and greater waist that is throwing your expectations off. All types of skis are a trade off - if you move back to a shorter, more thinly waisted ski you will struggle more in the fluffy stuff. So if you really want to get stuck into the off piste, you need to learn your new planks. Try jump turning with the Punishers on the slope - I suspect you will find it more of an effort than you are used to.
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I realize this is way past the date. But I have watched this forum and read reviews for years. I have both the Scott Punishers and the Reverse, I ski the Reverse more than any of my three skis, and never on a 3m wide track, lol, I am not that good a skier, advanced is my max rating. The Punisher is the ski I use on piste after a big dump of snow or in the spring when there is a lot of piles of snow and crud. But after 2 decades of skiing I discover that playing with binding position makes a world of difference, I have all my bindings mounted on rails so I can play with the positions, both my Head Titan's and my Punishers are moved forward one binding point on the rail and it makes a major difference. The Punishers where clunky and needing a lot of effort to ski in the back seat where they were mounted, I moved them forward approx 1 cm and they will now spin on a dime. There is a lot of rocker on this ski, I am 70 kg and 176 cm, my Punishers are 110 at waist and 183 cm, they will never carve like my Reverse at 85 cm waist but they are fun ski and will spin easily. Anyone having any issues with turns, play with different binding positions, in general a more forward position results in more response from the ski.
| xr39q wrote: |
Hello snowheads. I’ve been reading these forums for years but don’t think I’ve posted before. I’d welcome some advice on what skis to buy. So here’s my history
Height 71” 180cm, weight 12st, 168lbs, 76kg. Been skiing for 9 weeks over 13 years, advanced intermediate, happy and fast on reds; comfortable but slow on blacks and I would avoid a mogully black. Going forward, I want to learn off-piste and want to not be scared of mogully blacks, or anything else.
I started on hire skis (4 weeks), which were fine, then bought some 166cm Salomon Scrambler Hot’s (2 weeks) which were fine, then, to support my off piste ambitions bought some 182cm 2012 Scott Punishers which are awful. They just don’t turn. Whereas every other ski I’ve used would be able to get down a track 3m wide, the Punishers need 6m to be able to turn. On a red mogul field, which would be fun on the Scramblers, the Punishers are a liability. They are super for making big turns on wide reds at speed and they might be great off piste for all I know, but I bought them as all mountain skis and if they can’t cope with narrow couloirs and steep moguls then they don’t qualify. I am confused that reviews of the ski (including those on this site) describe it as very agile and quick edge to edge which is the opposite of what it is. Now some of this will be down to my (lack of) technique, and the skis do get better the more effort I put in, but skiing at that effort level would wear me out after a couple of hours.
Anyway, I want to replace them with some (all mountain) skis. I want them firstly to be able to do the tight turns and mogul handling that any hire ski can do, and then secondly to support my ambitions to ski better and ski off piste. Skiing better to me means skiing more, different conditions with control and confidence rather than just skiing fast (though that’s fun too). Thirdly, I’d like them to be 3 or 4 years old so I can pick them up 2ndhand.
So far I’ve been recommended Scott Reverse, Salomon Enduro 800XT, Salomon Q90, Dynastar Outland 80XT, Atomic Nomad Blackeye, K2 Apache Recon, Rossi Bandit B2 and Blizzard Bushwacker. I’d really welcome anyone's opinions on these and any other suggestions you may have.
Thanks in advance. |
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@BigWhiteOut, Welcome to the Forum 
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FAQ
