 Poster: A snowHead
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On the 9th December Michel Sapin, the French employment minster, won important concessions from his EU counterparts to crack down on expatriate workers whom he claimed were abusing the French system. The EU president claimed the new rules "will make for fair competition and equal treatment for all workers". Sapin said the legal tools will be in place before the start of the winter and their effect would be noticed very quickly. Britain and six eastern block countries voted against the changes.
Following the 1996 directive a firm can expatriate a worker for up to 24 months, it must apply local rules on minimum wage and working conditions but can pay social security in the home country. There are estimated to be 350,000 expatriate workers in France, amongst them employees of Tour Operators working in ski resorts. The new rules will let police look into salary and working conditions in much more detail and will extend the scope of any investigation including supporting documentation that must be provided. However the investigation must be proportionate and France must keep the EU informed of the measures it is taking.
Sapin has been criticised at home by commentators who say he should focus on reforming France's sclerotic labour market.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Do you blame them really when they have such huge youth unemployment numbers? How else do you appeal to your electorate? The Daily Fail and Call-me-Dave are doing exactly the same in terms of "preparing" new legislation for the fear influx of Eastern Europeans as of January 1st.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Samerberg Sue wrote: |
| Do you blame them really when they have such huge youth unemployment numbers? How else do you appeal to your electorate? The Daily Fail and Call-me-Dave are doing exactly the same in terms of "preparing" new legislation for the fear influx of Eastern Europeans as of January 1st. |
The problem is that it's not quite as simple as that. Requiring the TO to comply with these rules won't mean that they employ loads of French kids. All that will happen is that the cost of holidays via a TO will increase. This will reduce the numbers of people using said method of booking a holiday which will reduce the footfall in the resorts. It may have a more beneficial impact in the cities but in the rural tourism industry - I doubt it.
I know one could argue that more people will then build DIY holidays but I'm not convinced. I'd have thought that these days the vast majority of people who would consider doing a DIY holiday will already be doing so. The internet has removed most of the barriers to using this as a model
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
Requiring the TO to comply with these rules won't mean that they employ loads of French kids. All that will happen is that the cost of holidays via a TO will increase. This will reduce the numbers of people using said method of booking a holiday which will reduce the footfall in the resorts.
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So it is OK for the Brits to close the door on cheap labour from Eastern Europe in a bid to gain votes, but not for the French to do the same for cheap labour from the UK? Sorry, but when in Rome, etc!
Seems to work fine in other countries - Switzerland, Austria and Italy do not seem to be having as many of these so-called problems, nor do people seem to be staying away in their droves. The vast majority of Europeans DIY their trips, using a tour operator is seen as being lazy as well as paying over the odds for something you can easily organise yourself. The one place I know of in Austria working on the "Gap Year slave trade" chalet hotel model, is awful but they seem to have a loyal English customer base. I stayed their once but never again as there is no value for money and also more importantly no atmosphere of being "abroad". Maybe that's why it is popular with a certain type of British holidaymaker! 
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| Samerberg Sue wrote: |
| no atmosphere of being "abroad". |
I have never felt any significant atmosphere of being abroad when on a ski holiday. Most people in ski resorts when speaking to strangers use English as the lingua franca. Put a Dutchman, an Austrian and a Norwegian on an Austrian ski-lift together, and what language will they speak?
I think it's very difficult to get much of an "abroad" atmosphere in a place where *everybody* is a tourist. In French resorts you get expensive restaurants selling melted cheese in 100 different ways. According to Wikipedia, Tartiflette is an invention of the 1980s, by the (Reblochon) cheese marketing board.
Go to Austria, drink a "traditional" Aperol Spritz ("the real spritz revolution takes off in 2000" http://www.aperol.com/?page_id=70 )
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James the Last,
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it's very difficult to get much of an "abroad" atmosphere in a place where *everybody* is a tourist
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Absolutely.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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A report in yesterdays ES suggested that France is now the "sick man of Europe" with an economy on the verge of recession again (defined by 2 consecutive quarters of negative growth). Not sure the measures they're proposing will do anything much more than make them a less attractive destination to invest in. All IMHO, of course.
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| Samerberg Sue wrote: |
| Seems to work fine in other countries - Switzerland, Austria and Italy do not seem to be having as many of these so-called problems, nor do people seem to be staying away in their droves. |
Maybe these countries have more employer-friendly labour practices and therefore don't create such an incentive for employers to find ways around the local rules?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Hold on.. As I posted right at the beginning, all France is doing is what other member states have been doing for some time. There's been a change in EU law, agreed on by more than just France, that allows individual states to mandate how they control the transfer of cheap labour from other states and ensure that the local economy isn't being undercut. Austria, Germany, Spain, Finland, Italy, The Netherlands and Belgium already have such schemes in place and France is just joining them.
So why is France being painted as the evil one here?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I think if TO-employed UK seasonnaires' employment conditions were changed so that they were paid minimum wage but without the benefits they currently get (i.e. season pass, accommodation, equipment hire), they will probably be worse off.
There are thousands of people who are effectively paid less than the legal minimum wage in the UK. It's not just a problem in France and I doubt TO employees are the root of the problem.
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You know it makes sense.
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| queen bodecia wrote: |
I think if TO-employed UK seasonnaires' employment conditions were changed so that they were paid minimum wage but without the benefits they currently get (i.e. season pass, accommodation, equipment hire), they will probably be worse off.
There are thousands of people who are effectively paid less than the legal minimum wage in the UK. It's not just a problem in France and I doubt TO employees are the root of the problem. |
That's a fair comment but they wouldn't get any season workers if they don't include accommodation and the rules on benefit in kind for accommodation are quite miserly. Season pass and equipment hire isn't that much.
I suspect the key for 2013/4 for TOs is keeping a low profile, not treading on people's toes and they will probably get left alone to ply their trade for the greater good. It is significant though that whenever they get controlled for other things there is always a list of labour law offences that they get prosecuted (and found guilty) for. The smaller operations are probably more at risk.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Samerberg Sue wrote: |
| Do you blame them really when they have such huge youth unemployment numbers? How else do you appeal to your electorate? The Daily Fail and Call-me-Dave are doing exactly the same in terms of "preparing" new legislation for the fear influx of Eastern Europeans as of January 1st. |
I suspect it will improve youth employment by a rounding error. Reducing social charges (which foreign firms posting workers can avoid quite legally) and employment regulation across the board would likely have a much greater effect. The comparison of youth employment between France and Germany is instructive.
| Samerberg Sue wrote: |
| So it is OK for the Brits to close the door on cheap labour from Eastern Europe in a bid to gain votes, but not for the French to do the same for cheap labour from the UK? Sorry, but when in Rome, etc! |
No, I don't think either is right, unless or until there is EU-wide agreement to limit the free movement of labour; which I rather hope there isn't.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Samerberg Sue wrote: |
So it is OK for the Brits to close the door on cheap labour from Eastern Europe in a bid to gain votes, but not for the French to do the same for cheap labour from the UK? Sorry, but when in Rome, etc!
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I've worked with some of that "cheap labour". Personal skills, work skills and a work ethic that unfortunately puts most of the output of British universities to shame. We are lucky to have them contributing to the British economy.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| queen bodecia wrote: |
I think if TO-employed UK seasonnaires' employment conditions were changed so that they were paid minimum wage but without the benefits they currently get (i.e. season pass, accommodation, equipment hire), they will probably be worse off.
There are thousands of people who are effectively paid less than the legal minimum wage in the UK. It's not just a problem in France and I doubt TO employees are the root of the problem. |
However, in France at least, those things aren't 'benefits' they are requirements for the job and so must be provided by the employer. By employing under a UK contract, the TO's can dock pay to cover things like accom and equipment hire etc, but under a French contract they couldn't.
AIUI, under French law, if a job is seasonal and NOT where you normally live, the employer is obliged to provide you with accommodation, but it's not seen as, what we would say is a taxable benefit. This is part of the reason there's a bit of a spat going on. By employing under UK law, and 'seconding' the staff to France (although they've never actually worked in the UK from where they are supposed to be seconded from) they can be paid a UK minimum wage and have pay docked for accom and other stuff, keeping the TO's costs down. If the TO had to meet French employment standards as the Frenche employers do, it would be a different story.
I hope someone can confirm my understanding it right, or suitably correct it.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Samerberg Sue wrote: |
| Quote: |
Requiring the TO to comply with these rules won't mean that they employ loads of French kids. All that will happen is that the cost of holidays via a TO will increase. This will reduce the numbers of people using said method of booking a holiday which will reduce the footfall in the resorts.
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So it is OK for the Brits to close the door on cheap labour from Eastern Europe in a bid to gain votes, but not for the French to do the same for cheap labour from the UK? Sorry, but when in Rome, etc!
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Has anybody suggested that?
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FAQ
