 Poster: A snowHead
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I consider myself an average skier.
I go 2 times each winter and have done so for the last 4 years, blasting around the pistes like it is no ones business.
But I think I may have hit a plateau...
Each year I can handle any Blue or Red with ease in good conditions but still get vertigo on Blacks and icy conditions throw me big time.
So.... how do I take the next step up? Dominating Blacks and Icy conditions?
Get me off this plateau
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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bezthespaniard, lessons . . .
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Lessons......
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Well, whatever the others say, I reckon you should find a good instructor and have some more lessons.  If you know where you are going you could probably get some recommendations here.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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In strong agreement with everyone else re. lessons, also, ski more if you can, or perhaps 2 consecutive weeks rather than two separate ones.
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Lessons, one to one with good independent instructor
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bezthespaniard, Lessons are good, but if they don't appeal you could
a. Expand on jimmer's theme and head out for a Season.
b. Find some new friends who ski much better than you.
c. Both.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| On the rocks wrote: |
| Lessons, one to one with good independent instructor |
Are independent ones better than ones that work for schools?
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im a boarder not a skier but the concept is the same, i was where you are a few years ago and all i did was practice. I spent a week in 3 valleys and i spent the first 3 days solid at the top glacier on nothing but reds and blacks, over and over and over. just take your time getting down and the more you do it the more confident you get the more you learn how far you can push yourself and your equipment, and eventually you start flying.
I did the same thing riding switch, i just spent the first few days of a trip riding switch only and now im pretty even both ways, but beofre then, as soon as i was the wrong way round i would fall over trying to turn round.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I go to UCPA's so lessons are a possibility but had them loads and my technique is pretty good.
It is a confidence thing from my vertigo I think. Maybe just repeating careful descents will help
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Depending on whether the vertigo is psychosomatic or has a physiological cause, this may help: http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=2378780&highlight=hypnotherapy#2378780
If it has a physiological cause, there is medication that can treat it - see your GP and discuss what could be done.
All this said, I can't help feeling that specific coaching aimed at dealing with steeps and hard/icy ground would also help - both in terms of confidence and of actual "quality of the result"
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You know it makes sense.
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`If you've done the loads of lessons thing 2 options
i) Just go and literally throw yourself down a black - once you've survived a long fall you'll realise it isn't so bad and therefore there is nothing to be worried about.
ii) Get someone trusted and independent to critically appraise your technique. You could post vids up here if you've got very thick skin. There's probably stuff that just doesn't get picked up in group lessons which is still holding you back.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Do people find stamina is an issue?
I tend to be much more confident and able at the start of a week. I can be utterly useless at the end...
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Poster: A snowHead
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| jimmer wrote: |
| On the rocks wrote: |
| Lessons, one to one with good independent instructor |
Are independent ones better than ones that work for schools? |
Sorry I meant independent schools, which I have found to be much more consistent than, say, ESF. I'm sure ESF have some good instructors, but in my experience there's a fair proportion who may just say "you're doing fine and carry on what you're doing" - too much of a luck dip.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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After 8 weeks skiing it's quite natural to hit a plateau. I think after that initial bout of intense learning, starting something from new it suddenly feels like it's stopped. It hasn't exactly, it's just steadied to a more normal pace. It needs to. Apart from plenty more skiing, which of course you are having a blast doing anyway right, you need to start being more fussy and push yourself.
Steeps are a largely a mental issue. For me it's important to not sure into it. Take some deep breaths, survey the terrain, pick a line, face down the fall line, focus on the basics. It helps to have practiced stopping yourself in a fall - get your feet under you, facing into the slop and push up. Also to not be in traffic. Picking the right time of day to do the right slope can be important. Be comfortably side stepping/slipping, flip turning - so that you can get out of tricky situations or simply make some progress down the slope
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| bezthespaniard wrote: |
Do people find stamina is an issue?
I tend to be much more confident and able at the start of a week. I can be utterly useless at the end... |
This might be a technique issue and echoing everyone above some 1 on 1 lessons would help improve your skiing.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| bezthespaniard wrote: |
Do people find stamina is an issue?
I tend to be much more confident and able at the start of a week. I can be utterly useless at the end... |
Hummm... I generally tend to improve, not worsen, as I ski through a week or a season. I am more tired at the end of any given day, but part of "confidence" is knowing what I can and cannot do at different levels of tiredness. I'll go slower, get more turns in and choose different lines (also considering that at the end of the day the terrain will be different). I don't count this as "less confident or able"; in fact the opposite.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'd suggest you read Inner Skiing:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Inner-Skiing-W-Timothy-Gallwey-ebook/dp/B003WUYELQ/ref=sr_1_9?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1384955016&sr=1-9&keywords=skiing&tag=amz07b-21
and remember that once you get to a certain point (probably about where you are now), just more practice will not make you better - you need to identify the SPECIFIC problems you have (technique/mental/whatever) and deliberately practice / work on the right things.
And being fitter helps later in the week. I used to struggle to do 30 minutes of off-piste riding, but after working with a personal trainer on specific fitness for a couple of months I was able to do the Vallee Blanche (easy but long) in a morning, and be ready and full of energy to go again the same afternoon. 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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bezthespaniard, In my experience the 'next step' is actually a whole series of interlinked aspects that need to be first understood and then progressed together...
Separation, angulation, greater edge angles etc.... It's not something you'll stumble upon by accident as you roam around on that intermediate plateau, so you'll either need to do some extensive research yourself or get lessons.
I went for the former route and it took about 5 years of 5 trips a year - very enjoyable too, but if you're in a hurry I suggest lessons...
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skiing technique should not differ between different slopes, the only difference is that you pick up speed faster on a black slope! The reason people fail on this or tend to stay away is that the speed scares them, and they lean backwards, go much faster than necessary, fight for the turn because all body position is out the window and crash! you need to just practice your technique on a red, no more just blasting, maybe have an hour private lesson and get things tightened up. (By the way, I get so many 'advanced' people, that only class themselves as advanced because they can go fast and survive steep runs but in many cases their technique is awful) I'm not assuming that you have awful technique but would definitely recommend that you take a short lesson, just to see what level you're actually at, and take a few extra tips on board (you will never stop learning how to ski!) and if your ready, follow the instructor down a black piste and ask them to keep their speed under control and see how you do. This way you can build your confidence quite quickly on steeper slopes
With regards to the ice, make sure your skis are serviced and when applying pressure in a turn, 'bend ze knees' and get lower centre of gravity, this way you will feel more grip instantaneously!
Hope this helps you
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Good answer from thepistepanther IMO. Not that the others were bad....
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'd mix it up. Research the theory, take targeted lessons and just push yourself in small increments. But focus. See what works for you personally. Plenty of good advice above. When I was in my early stages I spent a lot of time descending many steep mogul runs head first like a damned slinky toy after falls 
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Get lessons. If you carrying on doing things the same way; you will perfect your faults.
Practice makes permanent.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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thepistepanther, your first sentence is key!
I think that a skier can learn by observation, by reading or viewing informational material, by analysis (thinking through the outcomes and what needs to happen to get them), and by practicing skills and maneuvers. It depends on both the skier and their opportunities how a mix of these will work best. Have you taken video of yourself? What are your strengths (and weaknesses)? What do you think would improve your sense of skill on steeper terrain? Lots of approaches possible.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I am going in on a different angle here.
take the pressure to improve off yourself.
skiing is a fun pastime.
you will never be a ski racer so the rate of your improvement does not matter.
go skiing just to enjoy it and take the pressure off yourself.
you will improve naturally.
if you prefer reds to scary blacks , do reds. one day you may enjoy blacks more as you have improved
naturally.
take lessons but go with the objective of enjoying what you have not what you dont have.
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emwmarine, "you will improve naturally. "
Ummm, for many people, I think not. My M-in-law who is lovely, has been skiing 5-6 or more weeks a year for 40 years and remains on the "intermediate plateau. While she's entirely content, and no criticism intended, I don't think her skiing has changed in 30 years.
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You know it makes sense.
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Yes, all practice does is that it "makes permanent" (not perfect - only perfect practice makes perfect).
What happens in practice is this:
- as a beginner, you get better very fast,
- then you get to the point of being "good enough for me" - i.e. what your subconscious thinks is an acceptable level of skill.
- AND THEN YOU STOP GETTING BETTER COMPLETELY, no matter how much you practice (i.e. "just skiing").
This is born out in all fields of expertise / all skills - whether it is typing (are you faster now than 5 years ago?), or golf, or skiing, or any other skill. You will only keep improving if you keep practicing and refining your skills, consciously and with a purpose - i.e. like you did when you first learnt to ski.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| under a new name wrote: |
emwmarine, "you will improve naturally. "
Ummm, for many people, I think not. My M-in-law who is lovely, has been skiing 5-6 or more weeks a year for 40 years and remains on the "intermediate plateau. While she's entirely content, and no criticism intended, I don't think her skiing has changed in 30 years. |
I'm sure that's true. But as long as she's happy.....
You do see some people who are so unfit, fat (is that un-pc now?), inflexible, unathletic, lack of rythm that you can't imagine them improving beyond a certain level but they are happy.
I think it is good to improve and have lessons to improve.
But it is very easy to get obsessed with improving and become unhappy with the level of skiing that you are at. All some people seem to do is get unhappy about how they are at the moment rather than just try to enjoy the ride.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
But it is very easy to get obsessed with improving and become unhappy with the level of skiing that you are at. All some people seem to do is get unhappy about how they are at the moment rather than just try to enjoy the ride.
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that's a fair point too.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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You could do worse than have lessons with easiski in Les Deux Alpes. Charlotte gets vertigo herself so would be ideal in helping you with your confidence and technique.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The plateau isn't necessarily just about deciding you're good enough. It's been shown many times that people develop skills according to a mathematical relationship called a "power law" that predicts diminishing returns from each
successive practice. You might improve as much in your first ten hours as in your next hundred hours, and the same in the next thousand hours after that.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Being a bit dumb, is vertigo the same as fear of heights?
I think that you do gradually get used to the fear you get when you look over a steep edge. I remember first time I looked down a green run thinking I was going to have to crawl down it. Now it looks flat.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
The plateau isn't necessarily just about deciding you're good enough. It's been shown many times that people develop skills according to a mathematical relationship called a "power law" that predicts diminishing returns from each
successive practice. You might improve as much in your first ten hours as in your next hundred hours, and the same in the next thousand hours after that. |
that is also because
- most people "just repeat what they've done before" during those last 1000 hours.
- the difference in skill between someone who can run 100m in 9.8s vs 10.0s is MUCH bigger than the difference in skill between an 14.8 and a 15.0 runner. As you get better/closer to the "limit", the difference in skill needed to have an observable effect becomes bigger. You could probably improve from 15.5 to sub-15 by some fairly light gym work and losing a few pounds, but the gap in skill between a 9.8 and a 10.0 runner is so big that the latter will almost never be able to beat the former. Same applies to ski racing or archery or anything else.
So one has to be careful to distinguish the impact of the power laws on actual skill level, vs the impact on outwardly observable results - these are not the same.
Ultimately it is true your progress will not be as big in hours 500-520 as in hours 0-20, but if you focus on identifying specific areas for improvement and get lessons or watch videos or even just focus on those areas when on the hill, you will get better faster than if you "just skied" and hoped for the best.
But IF you are already at the level where you feel you are "good enough for you" - i.e. you can enjoy your skiing at the current level and do not feel that you need to be better/faster/smoother/gnarlier/whatever, then good for you and just enjoy your skiing.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| emwmarine wrote: |
Being a bit dumb, is vertigo the same as fear of heights?
I think that you do gradually get used to the fear you get when you look over a steep edge. I remember first time I looked down a green run thinking I was going to have to crawl down it. Now it looks flat. |
In common usage, yes. There is a medical definition based on which it is a disturbance of your sense of balance due to problems with the vestibular system - nothing to do with fear, although fear of heights is often a result, since the sufferer has problems in balancing and falling from a greater height is generally not good...
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Layne & SSH- Thanks for the shout out! Its something I see on a weekly basis, so I have learned quite well how to tackle these problems!
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| boardiac wrote: |
Yes, all practice does is that it "makes permanent" (not perfect - only perfect practice makes perfect).
What happens in practice is this:
- as a beginner, you get better very fast,
- then you get to the point of being "good enough for me" - i.e. what your subconscious thinks is an acceptable level of skill.
- AND THEN YOU STOP GETTING BETTER COMPLETELY, no matter how much you practice (i.e. "just skiing").
This is born out in all fields of expertise / all skills - whether it is typing (are you faster now than 5 years ago?), or golf, or skiing, or any other skill. You will only keep improving if you keep practicing and refining your skills, consciously and with a purpose - i.e. like you did when you first learnt to ski. |
I just don't buy this from the frame of reference of my own experience as least with skiing. Even if it's only improvements in tactical awareness and greater precedent to draw from (e.g. that lump of snow looks fluffy but experience tells me there is usually a FG rock underneath) anyone can ski smoother and better and/or become more ski fit.
Yes there are lots of people who don't get any better because they stick to the blue runs they like, enjoy lots of coffee stops and retire gracefully when weather or snow conditions get bad. Plus they are skiing for max 6 days a year so are hardly ski fit. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that but when that generality is used to cover all circumstances I think we begin to get a problem. There are lots of seasonnaires who clock lots of miles a season who are improving through being stretched by skiing with other better peers. They aren't all in constant lessons - the practice makes permanent refrain is a vast oversimplification. Yes everyone like that will have flaws and yes most will be shown up by a L4 Instructor who has spent considerable time and effort on their own personal skiing but that's far from complete stasis. The assumption that everyone is destined to be an intermediate for ever until they grasp the magic thread of focused lessons is not complete reality - good lessons will obviously help but individuals can also do a lot to help themselves starting by thinking about what they are doing, whether it is effective and why.
How many snowboarders to ride to a good standard do you think have had lots of lessons beyond novice level? I'd guess that it isn't a huge percentage.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| boardiac wrote: |
| - the difference in skill between someone who can run 100m in 9.8s vs 10.0s is MUCH bigger than the difference in skill between an 14.8 and a 15.0 runner. As you get better/closer to the "limit", the difference in skill needed to have an observable effect becomes bigger. You could probably improve from 15.5 to sub-15 by some fairly light gym work and losing a few pounds, but the gap in skill between a 9.8 and a 10.0 runner is so big that the latter will almost never be able to beat the former. Same applies to ski racing or archery or anything else. |
If you used the word ability rather than skill then I'd maybe tentatively agree. The difference between someone that runs 100m in 9.8s versus 10s is not wholly down to acquired skill but also fitness and their physiology. The latter of which is impossible to train. Also I'd disagree that the difference in ability is much larger but that the difference is much harder to acquire we can see this with the small difference in the objective result.
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Thank you to everyone for these great tips! I will be doing some lessons in mid December - I originally was going to just cruise but I think lessons will take me to the next step.
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FAQ
