 Poster: A snowHead
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Hm, perhaps learning to drive is a better comparison. At first you haven't a clue, so take lessons (unless you're a headcase). In lessons you can't imagine how anyone can steer, work the clutch, change gear, look at traffic, forward and rear, indicate etc etc at the same time. Even when you've passed your test you still have to think. Only when you've had quite a bit of practise can you drive, take off your jacket, talk on the phone, fiddle with the radio, light a fag etc and not crash. (Compare this with ESF instuctor  )
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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[quote="Wear The Fox Hat]If someone has enough time to learn skiing without learning, it would be interesting to see. For one, they'd have no understanding of how to fall safely - so, they'd get injured more.
With no expanation, how would they understand skier responsibility?
How do they turn? What pain do they go through to learn to turn?
How do they stop? How do they learn that?
All we need to do is to raise a child on the slopes and never take their skis off. Summers may be a problem. Is B F Skinner around and breeding these days?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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This walking/skiing comparison is interesting...
IMHO you *do* need professional instruction to learn how to excel at anything [caveat: given a limited amount of time ie only 30-80yrs]
I'm learning to dance at the moment. Trust me when I say that I *do* need to be taught how to walk 
(ok, perambulate in time to the music)
There are styles of walking eg some involve rise and fall, some don't; some require heel leads, some need the ball of your foot to go first.
There are also different techniques; if you walk backwards by 'falling' (a common and natural technique) then you have less control; instead you need to extend (which actually involves upper body movement forward to counterbalance the rearwards leg extension). When I 'drive' forwards I need to think about how I move my 'center' and maintain my 'frame'.
Balance is crucial. So is the way in which you angulate your feet. Today I started to learn how to close my feet by pushing with my trailing leg. Mrs lbt learnt how to (and how not to) lift and hold her arms up.
You need to control and be aware of how much rotation you use as you swing through on a step. You need to control how your hips move as you lower your spine (without 'sticking your bum out'). All aspects of kinestheic control.
2 weeks ago we spent an entire hour just standing and learning "the hold".
Fantastically I find that the balance-board exercises I used to do purely for skiing are now great for dancing; the core body strength and thigh power is essental in fast latin; my posture and weight distribution should also make a difference to my skiing too.
Ain't life grand when things come together  
Now admittedly we're learning 'competition' level dance - but like most people who learn anything to this level (including skiing), it's about the sense of personal achievement and about the mastery of the (or is that 'a') technique - and eventually (IMHO) about mastering and awareness of ones self.
I have a friend who learns Salsa - different dance, different technique. His hip movement is all wrong and his footwork is atrocious - for the Rhumba or Cha-cha-cha. But it's right for Salsa.
I see parallels in PMTS vs "other styles" too. I personally have more respect for an athlete who has enough mastery over and awareness about their body to competently differentiate between the technigues and ski *both* styles than anyone who excels at either one [same goes for 1 plank or 2]. Others prefer a more passionate and 'fanatical' approach where they dedicate themselves to a single discipline - fine.
(oh, as an amusing/despairing aside I was checking 'kinesthetic' and found a *literacy* website that managed, in the space of only 2-3 lines, to spell kinesthetic in 3 different ways: Kinisthetic, Kinesthetic, Kinaesthetic - sigh  )
2nd PS:
I tried the HH 'phantom move' thing (or a recollection of it) where you lift/de-weight your inside leg and 'tilt' it. It worked. I found that interesting.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| lbt wrote: |
2nd PS:
I tried the HH 'phantom move' thing (or a recollection of it) where you lift/de-weight your inside leg and 'tilt' it. It worked. I found that interesting. |
It's basically the same as pointing with your inside knee, and very similar to how you turn a bike when freewheeling round a corner - you'll lift your inside pedal up and forward as you lean into the turn to help you round. This leaves you ready to power out of the turn with that leg. But note, it is an up AND FORWARD motion - it involves tip lead!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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lbt, Of course at competition level you change the goalposts completely, however most snowheads want to ski for fun. Most people don't think about how they walk either! Actually I often advise stiff middled students to learn salsa as it helps them to loosten up the pelvic region so they can ski more freely.
If you "tune in" to what you're feeling doing ordinary things on an ordinary day you can increase your body awareness and speed up your learning process enormously. It's quite easy to do - body awareness can be learned.
Wear The Fox Hat, Exactly - why call it something more than it is??? 
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easiski, I agree about most wanting to ski for fun - but I'm learning to dance more for fun than to compete - it's just that in the dance world you only really focus so hard on technique at that level - in the skiing world technique doesn't require you to compete.
Anyway, competition and fun aren't exclusive (OK, maybe at the higher levels). I think my point is that most snowheads/skiers who really care about technique are probably gaining a lot of satisfaction from this 'self mastery' thing which certainly relates to body awareness. I was also making the point that training/coaching can be incredibly beneficial if it aligns with your objectives.
As for the naming thing - that's (IMHO) a commercial thing and will probably result in certain skiing terminology becoming 'intellectual property', have patents and copyright
I once went to a dance lesson about 'Ceroc' - I had to sign a bit of paper promising I wouldn't teach my friends how to do it - their website has a description of Ceroc with the following signoff:
"Mike Ellard (owner of Ceroc)"
How the f*ck someone can *own* a dance is beyond me - but I wonder if the next step in skiing is for someone to claim ownership of snowblades (or the next equivalent).
(I attended just the one Ceroc lesson - the phrase "don't worry about your feet" somewhat put me off!)
Sorry - this kind of rampant commercialism and our modern attitude to selfishly protecting ideas doesn't make me a happy lbt  
Wear The Fox Hat, I can see how it's the same as pointing with your knee - when I tried it I was just 'playing' with my joints and skis "to see what happens". I seem to remember using just my ankle - I certainly plan to try it again though. I suspect that I consciously/actively moved my ankle joint but also caused other muscles to move too. I also suspect it depends on where your personal mental control center is? In ballroom dance (at least according to my teacher) it's about moving your upper chest by using your feet - a lot of skiing seems to have your center as your center of mass (which technically it is) and different techniques/teachers emphasise the control and drive coming from different places - feet, skis, knees, hips, weighting. Maybe the same fundemental effect but achieved through a different explanation.
After all, at the end of the day we're trying to learn a kinesthetic skill through verbal and visual learning.
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| Quote: |
it involves tip lead!
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*stays silent*
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Ok, just read this whole thread and it's clear even to a newb like me that there are 'undercurrents going on here. Since I'm an 'early intermediate' with an interest in improving, (just booked 3 days of lessons with topski at Val d'isere fror Christmas!) , and someone who has had lessons from a variety of teachers in the past I'd really like to understand some of the debate. It would help to have the following terms/references clarified :
Who is Warren Smith?
who is Harb?
what is PMTS?
what is EPIC?
is anyone out there able or willing to explain this 'debate' or have I got to try and read between the lines to discover what the problem is? (never been any good at that).
BTW for what it's worth, although I think I prefer the 'modern' feet apart, both ski's on the ground, use pressure and edge to initiate the turn' approach, and I recognise the difference bewteen short fat ski's with a pronounced curve, and the old straight long things, The most fun I had last year was learning with 'Magio' at Courmayeur who was definitely of the old school, 'plant your pole, lift your ski, twist your ankles'. I wasn't very good at doing what he asked, but it was fun to try and I didn't feel the excercise was a waste of time.
SimonT
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AxsMan, Waren smith is a british ski teacher who does courses principally in freerid (off piste). Very well thought of in many circles. He does well with videos and books.
Harald Harb is an American ski teacher who invents new and complicated ways to explain things He does very well with videos and books and courses in the States. He also spends a lot of time rubbishing all other ski teachers and particularly the American system. (Bejes will disagree violently with this explanation).
PMTS is what Harald Harb calls his system.
EPIC is a forum for skiers - more technical than this one.
There is disagreement about how wide your feet should be. Any modern european teacher will probably go for hip width apart. I understand (but perhaps Rusty Guy can confirm) that some of the US teachers have been going for shoulder width (this is modern competition ski-ing). HH advises people to keep their feet closer together.
Although most modern ski-ing is similar, and the aims are the same, there will be some disagreement also about how much weight/pressure to put on each ski during the turn - no I'm not getting into this one again!!!
Have fun whatever.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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AxsMan, easiski sums it up pretty well. You tend to find that supporters of PMTS/Harb are often quite...erm...evangelical in their support of the man/system. So you can't really have a discussion with a supporter of PMTS because they don't believe that any other system or methods have any validity*. To them, Harb has discovered the one, true path to skiing enlightenment.
*Actually I couldn't have a discussion anyway because I know nothing (but don't tell anyone)
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Oh, I should mention that I've been on one of Warren's courses, had a few days private tuition with one of his team, own a couple of his DVDs and will be seeing him again this winter. Despite that, I don't think I have a bias or an axe to grind - the PMTS people just annoy me.
If you're interested...
http://www.realskiers.com/pmtsforum/
http://forums.epicski.com/
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You know it makes sense.
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AxsMan, EpicSki, apart from being a forum, also run a couple of Academies every year, one is in 2 weeks time in Stowe, Vermont, and the other is at the end of January in Snowbird, Utah. (There's a link in my signature). If someone from snowHeads goes to one of the Epic academies, then get a few £££ as a referal fee. There's a few of us heading out to Utah for that trip.
Epic is a bit like snowHeads older brother.
(end of advert)
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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PMTS = Primary Movements Teaching System
Which, as far as I remember, is based around 3 movements:
1. Buy Harald's Books/DVDs.
2. Attend Harald's indoctrination camps.
3. Get down on your knees every day at 7.30am, face towards Colorado, and worship him.
(or something like that)
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
The most fun I had last year was learning with 'Magio' at Courmayeur who was definitely of the old school, 'plant your pole, lift your ski, twist your ankles'.
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This is an excellent starting point for basic parallel (apart from the lift your ski bit). Anyone who dis-ses this need only watch holidaymakers/punters ski down a red run, not finishing their turns, and gaining speed, and then chucking in a huge stop in order to slow down.
Too many people are not taught foot rotation as a skill, in order to help finish their turns off.
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There is disagreement about how wide your feet should be. Any modern european teacher will probably go for hip width apart. I understand (but perhaps Rusty Guy can confirm) that some of the US teachers have been going for shoulder width (this is modern competition ski-ing). HH advises people to keep their feet closer together.
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There is no one static stance width. This varies, accoring to conditions, terraing, situations. Watch the slalom racers. Nice and wide (shoulder or hip) through the wide gates, feet narrow through the flush.
If you're carving (!) on the groomers, a hip width stance is probably most suitable.
Short radius turns require a slightly narrower stance to aid mobility, as do bumps.
A full-on race tuck being hunkered down probably requires a shoulder width stance.
I've skied with Warren (not as a paying customer), and I've read a lot of HH's stuff. Both have stuff to take away.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| veeeight wrote: |
There is no one static stance width.
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While that may be correct, it's certainly not what HH teaches, he does firmly believe in fixed width.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Point them downhill and turn before you go too fast... Repeat as ness'
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I don't know, all this disagreement about how to ski...Harald Harb, Warren Smith and Easiski are all without doubt better skiers than I'll ever be, and yet they all (think) they're doing something different? What this means is that there's lots of ways to ski well...this is a good thing surely?
I hope this forum isn't going to go down the Epicski route of over-analysing everything until paralysis sets in!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
While that may be correct, it's certainly not what HH teaches, he does firmly believe in fixed width.
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Mind you, I've met a BASI trainer that also believes that.........
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| JT wrote: |
| Point them downhill and turn before you go too fast... Repeat as ness' |
But why make turns just to slow down?
Turn cause it's fun!
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| Plake wrote: |
| Harald Harb, Warren Smith and Easiski are all without doubt better skiers than I'll ever be, and yet they all (think) they're doing something different? |
I'm not sure that most instructors, including Warren and presumably easiski, necessarily do think they are doing 'something different'. I think they're teaching techniques to make you better skiers - some of which may be common to other instuctors and ski schools and some of which may be their own slant on things.
As far as I can see it's only PMTS and it's disciples that believe they are doing something unique and that their method is the only way to ski. It's this attitude that rubs many people up the wrong way. Including me (in case you hadn't guessed ).
As I mentioned earlier, my technical knowledge is fairly poor. I couldn't comment on PMTS technique v others. I just don't like the way they present their case.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Plake,
Yep, tedious isn't it. But then some might think obsessing is fun as well...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Ok. Who lit the blue touchpaper.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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veeeight, I admit to being a bit sensitive, but I have serious principles, and one of them is value for money. I do try really hard to give it and that means NOT confusing what are essentially simple issues with technobabble etc. I certainly don't agree about obsessing about 1.23mm which Lampbus mentioned. My whole aim is to show up these charlatans for what they are-money grubbing attention seekers. Therefore, any suggestion that I should be included in their club is very upsetting to me (especially early in the morning)! 
Oh, and plake lit it.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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easiski, isn't it also a good idea to teach them traversing, and turning, rather than just ploughing straight down? Let the kids see that by turning in a gentle wedge, they can lose speed, yet still have control. Get them out of the fall line, and speed isn't as big an issue (neither is the wedge)
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Poster: A snowHead
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Wear The Fox Hat, yes - note first para!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Wear The Fox Hat, said
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If someone has enough time to learn skiing without learning, it would be interesting to see. For one, they'd have no understanding of how to fall safely - so, they'd get injured more.
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It was ages ago in the thread, but I've only just caught up!
I've had about three weeks' worth of lessons and never been taught this. Can you tell me more? Sounds worth knowing...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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SkiBod,
If you have played sports falling is doddle... I can't see how it is difficult just don't fight it too hard. If you can't stop the fall just go with it...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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SkiBod, unlike other sports, where you might try to arrest your fall by putting an arm out, if you are falling on piste, then relax and fall. Bring your arms in to your body to protect them, bring your legs together. Once you are down on the snow, then use your legs or arms to slow you down.
Once you begin to fall, then let yourself go. if you tense up and try to stop, you are more likely to cause an injury to yourself.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Thanks for the good advice. Having previously broken an arm falling off my mountain bike, and a leg falling off parallel bars, it will hopefully be put to good use skiing!
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| Quote: |
| If you can't stop the fall just go with it... |
...its the ones where one second you're skiing, the next you're doing somersaults that are the annoing ones
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There's definitely a knack to falling. Never putting your hand out to stop yourself is probably the most important aspect.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Kramer, Yes, that's exactly what I did on my MTB, 2 miles from anywhere, straight into a mud bank, and it went crack! However, if it hadn't been my arm it would have been face first that time ~ broken arm / broken nose? Mmmm!
I'll go with WTFH for skiing, "Relax and Splat"! And try and keep my arms tucked in!
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When I was 15, I was hit by a car doing about 20-30mph, which tried to swerve right and didn't notice me riding a bicycle straight ahead (right-hand driving country).
I attribute the fact that I didn't get hurt to years of practice falling on snow. Drawing a map of various scratches and bruises on my body, I concluded I must have curled up in a ball and rolled over once or twice on the tarmac.
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FAQ
