DB, the Reine Barkered video is a great example of needing to be able to do both. Pole plants on planned moves and none on those of necessity.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
meh wrote:
DB, the Reine Barkered video is a great example of needing to be able to do both. Pole plants on planned moves and none on those of necessity.
So pole plants are useful but not always necessary?
Interesting that Hirscher doesn't plant his poles but does get his hands forward even if has to punch them forward to recover position. Have wondered what Hirscher would do with his hands / poles if the Slalom poles were only knee height (i.e. he didn't have to knock them out of the way).
Re: Video above - same as some of you have seen on my other thread. I fancy that my hands are similar to Nerys' (ignore my feet which as I say I am working on). What I have found is that it was incredibly difficult to start using the poles having not used them for so long. My best efforts were only last night in a snow dome. To start making a touch/plant almost resulted in me falling over the poles and has taken a fair while to start doing something with them. Then I see a video like Nerys' and wonder if it is going to be worth the learning. However, I must admit in her video her upper body looks as static as mine and neither of us look as though we are skiing, errr...I need a word................ 'actively' might do. I know you all swear when I get interested in BZK, but hopefully you can all understand my interest when I see comments about not pole planting being taught given my fight to do the opposite. I guess I am now in a situation where I make a choice, though convention appears to require that I try it as I am now doing.
NB. It was rather rock hard underfoot hence the skittering about.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 27-08-13 22:33; edited 1 time in total
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Trying skiing moguls, steeps or variable snow without a pole plant </topic>
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After all it is free
Quote:
Have wondered what Hirscher would do with his hands / poles if the Slalom poles were only knee height (i.e. he didn't have to knock them out of the way).
He would probably ski as he would when freeskiing, not dissimilarly to the skiers in this clip. http://youtube.com/v/jFMLWRbLobY
Those short, or stubby, gates are often used by these guys in training and are actively encouraged in younger racers to avoid fixation on hitting the gates.
Pole planting is an important skill and one that is often overlooked. Regardless of how balanced you are, it will be sometimes useful to re centre and rebalance, especially on steeper terrain and in bumps.
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DB, my personal take is that they're useful when you have time to plan to do one. In the ski racing footage you posted there's what looks like a pseudo-plant when there is time. FWT venues are obviously a fair bit steeper, your line is your own, often in no fall terrain, only visually inspected and its not strictly scored on time so the advantage of a third point of contact is much more pronounced.
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Megamum wrote:
So as not to derail the other thread I have picked up on Mike Pow's comment that he doesn't teach pole planting. On the other hand as I am sure many of you will have noticed rob@rar and others have positively encouraged me to actively pole plant because of numerous benefits this could bring to my skiing.
This strikes me as something that requires further discussion. The thread is now open, please fill your boots and explain for me which view is correct. FWIW it is a skill that, following some degree of effort, I have just begun to master.
Two examples of me pole planting:
1) If I am doing 'pivoty' short turns, you know the 'skis pointing left and right underneath you and zipper pointing down the hill' thing. A 'blocking' pole plant helps me stop my upper body rotating with the skis. It sort of happens near the end of the turn really. Mike Pow doesn't want to block anything though, he keeps his zipper pointing in the same direction as his skis.
2) Sometimes what I am trying to do is get pressure on the front edges of the skis at the start of the turn. Part of my 'getting forward' process is a pole plant.
So why are you pole planting (apart from rob@rar said so) and is it helping or a distraction?
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stuarth wrote:
Mike Pow wrote:
Hopefully the vids demonstrate that you don't need to pole plant to experience "flow, rhythm and timing" in skiing.
Not sure about the whole not pole planting thing, but what it did demonstrate is that I need to go skiing in Japan
+1 Was thinking EXACTLY the same..."NEED"!!
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
under a new name wrote:
stuarth, but a steep part of Japan surely?
Yes, a little steeper, with a few pillow drops would be nice (oh hang on, thats here!), but I'm not too fussy
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
clarky999 wrote:
Elston wrote:
Mike Pow, in first video I see linked traverses with no dynamism. In the second, I see a skier who achieves more when he uses a pole plant, without one there is no flow. In both videos each turn, without a poleplant, looks like a lot of effort.
I think you're being a little unfair there, about the first video. If you check out some of mike pow's Japan season reviews, you'll find several videos showing her progress - which is very quick, with nice powder skiing pretty early on.
Totally agree with you but I was directly responding to this:
Quote:
The vids demonstrate that you don't need to pole plant to experience "flow, rhythm and timing" in skiing
From what I can see neither video does. Not saying what he teaches is wrong but I wouldn't mind seeing some of the proposed benefits demonstrated on video because in my opinion, in those videos, both skiers look like they are skiing with a handicap.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Quote:
...see the relaxed discipline in Nerys' upper body...
I think I saw this written on a postcard in a phonebox outside Swansea once...
In the part of Hokkaido I play the pitch is between 25-35 degrees.
Because the snow is light & dry most of the time you don't need a steep pitch to ski powder.
The terrain is steeper and more Alpine in the resorts on the main island of Honshu - Nagano area for example.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Wed 28-08-13 10:21; edited 1 time in total
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
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Mike Pow, I guess it's unlikely that anyone would be arguing in favour of pole plants for 'subtle balance changes', though.
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^ Mike Pow : What your video show is that it is possible to make intermediate parallel turns without a pole plant. (though 2nd skier is advancing beyond that level).
Try skiing moguls, steeps or variable snow without poles.
Whole different story.
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...see the relaxed discipline in Nerys' upper body...
I think I saw this written on a postcard in a phonebox outside Swansea once...
Thankfully she's an Aberdare and Cardiff girl
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Mike Pow wrote:
Second vid is of my most accomplished student Ian.
He had skied before I met him and the ingrained desire to pole plant crops up every once in a while. But hopefully you can see he's skiing steepish and technical terrain with varying turn shapes in at times deep powder with a quiet upper body with no pole planting.
I'm tailing him with my poles in one hand and the Contour camera in the other - the ray gun. So no pole planting for me either
FWIW, I like my pole plant, but only when I feel I need it, if that makes sense. So, on much of that terrain that you and Ian are skiing, I too would not use the plant much, but on steeps, icy kak and similar, I use the plant a lot. Perhaps it's just a comfort blanket for me?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Haggis_Trap wrote:
^ Mike Pow : What your video show is that it is possible to make intermediate parallel turns without a pole plant. (though 2nd skier is advancing beyond that level).
Try skiing moguls, steeps or variable snow without poles.
Whole different story.
We don't get many moguls where we ski. But when we do, and admitedly they're not the VW Beetle size you see in parts of the US and Europe, we ski the same way.
But then I don't teach zipper line skiing in moguls either.
As for variable snow, there's plenty of that in the vids.
Piste, packed powder, powder, crud. No ice or breakable crust, but we don't get a lot of that either.
Some of the pitches in the second vid are between 30-35 degrees.
How steep does it need to be where you feel pole planting is essesntial?
I've skied the Cosmiques Couloir in Chamonix in knee deep powder and the NE Face of Pen-y-Fan in Wales in packed, mixed snow conditions and didn't feel the need to pole plant.
Both are in the 35-40 deg range.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
You have a tall and relaxed stance with a quiet upper body. You look comfortable on skis. And outwardly you look like you're enjoying it.
Your foot turning speed is relaxed and quick, but you don't seem to complete your turns.
Imagine that straight down the fall line is 12 o'clock on a clock face, you pivot and edge your skis to about 10 and 2 o'clock and then stop.
To control your speed you skid the tails sideways and pressure the snow.
If you continued to pivot and edge your skis through the completion of the turn you'd find that you would be slower going into the next turn and would have more time in the fall line to shift your whole body balance before the speed on snow got too fast for you.
Hope that makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I've seen Ali Ross advocate that pole planting is often more of a hindrance than a benefit for many intermediate skiers. Certainly in his classes the focus seems to be more on what is going on below the waist than above it.
Agree that a pole plant can be helpful (possibly vital) in challenging conditions but a pole plant on its own won't make a good skier out of someone that hasn't got the fundamentals of turning through edging, pressure and steering already sorted out.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Quote:
To control your speed you skid the tails sideways and pressure the snow.
If you continued to pivot and edge your skis through the completion of the turn you'd find that you would be slower going into the next turn and would have more time in the fall line to shift your whole body balance before the speed on snow got too fast for you.
Makes sense, and is in line with advice from other instructors too, my current goal is the achieve this without ending up with too my traverse across the hill so that I can narrow the corridor that I ski in, i.e. move to the new edges and start the next turn the moment the edges go flat.
Quote:
You have a tall and relaxed stance with a quiet upper body.
Mike Pow, I assume this is good - I also assume that you would see no need for me to pole plant?
Kenny,
Quote:
So why are you pole planting (apart from rob@rar said so) and is it helping or a distraction?
Mainly for that reason and because some (though notably not all) other instructors on holiday have encouraged it. I've been told that it will help my timing and have other benefits. I am open minded about it, so I am trying it. I still find it a distraction (however, maybe that's why they are asking me to do it - maybe it gives me something to focus on and stops me thinking too much about the slope, my feet and 'fear'!!) I think it breaks the flow of the skiing - even if I only try and gently tap the snow it almost creates a pause, though with Rob last time we were using that pause constructively to give me time to edge.
However, as stated it is a distraction, which is why I find Mike Pow's, thoughts interesting. I can get down a red safely and steadily without a pole ever striking the ground. I know some folks have said that I will need them for more tricky stuff later - steeps and moguls so they are good to have at my disposal I guess.
Mike Pow, do you advocate pole plants for steeps and moguls?
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Elston wrote:
clarky999 wrote:
Elston wrote:
Mike Pow, in first video I see linked traverses with no dynamism. In the second, I see a skier who achieves more when he uses a pole plant, without one there is no flow. In both videos each turn, without a poleplant, looks like a lot of effort.
I think you're being a little unfair there, about the first video. If you check out some of mike pow's Japan season reviews, you'll find several videos showing her progress - which is very quick, with nice powder skiing pretty early on.
Totally agree with you but I was directly responding to this:
Quote:
The vids demonstrate that you don't need to pole plant to experience "flow, rhythm and timing" in skiing
From what I can see neither video does. Not saying what he teaches is wrong but I wouldn't mind seeing some of the proposed benefits demonstrated on video because in my opinion, in those videos, both skiers look like they are skiing with a handicap.
Gone back through the vids.
In the first clip of the first vid I see Nerys, a skier relatively new to the sport, skiing a black, ungroomed run with mixed snow conditions for the first time.
She's making long traverses across the slope but these are curved not 'z' traverses.
When she's completed the turn on edged skis she flattens her skis into the fall line, shifts her balance to the new downhill ski and repeats.
In the second skiing clip, she's skiing an ungroomed lightly treed slope beside a green run with very little deviation either side of the fall line because the pitch and snow depth didn't warrant it.
In the final skiing clip she's skiing a red run top to bottom without stopping turning as much and as far as is needed relative to the snow conditions and pitch.
In my opinion the only skiers that need to make a succession of similar shaped turns one after the other are racers and skiers trying to pass a certification grade exam.
Because Nerys is continually finding her balance and moving both her skis the changes in direction are subtle and look very robotic and undynamic.
Waving the ski poles around like a conductor's baton may look dynamic and exciting but for too many skiers this eratic upper body movement is masking some very serious deficiences in the feet.
Maybe this vid will show a greater range of turn shape and speed on snow but still with a relaxed, quiet upper body.
To control your speed you skid the tails sideways and pressure the snow.
If you continued to pivot and edge your skis through the completion of the turn you'd find that you would be slower going into the next turn and would have more time in the fall line to shift your whole body balance before the speed on snow got too fast for you.
Quote:
Makes sense, and is in line with advice from other instructors too, my current goal is the achieve this without ending up with too my traverse across the hill so that I can narrow the corridor that I ski in, i.e. move to the new edges and start the next turn the moment the edges go flat.
If you have more time on flat skis in the fall line this will give you more time and opportunity to shift your whole body balance away from the mountain (to the downhill) and pivot your flatter skis further and faster away from the fall line thereby tightening your turn shape and eliminating long traverses across the slope.
In my opinion people get on their edges way too early when making short radius turns and then get fixed into the turn shape determined by the radii of their skis. The only way to tighten the turn shape is to let the tails release and skid around the corner.
Quote:
You have a tall and relaxed stance with a quiet upper body.
Quote:
Mike Pow, I assume this is good - I also assume that you would see no need for me to pole plant?
Yes I think your stance is good, and I see no need for you to pole plant.
But I'm not your instructor. If you feel that you're progressing at the speed you're happy with then go with what your current instructor is recommending.
Quote:
However, as stated it is a distraction, which is why I find Mike Pow's, thoughts interesting. I can get down a red safely and steadily without a pole ever striking the ground. I know some folks have said that I will need them for more tricky stuff later - steeps and moguls so they are good to have at my disposal I guess.
Mike Pow, do you advocate pole plants for steeps and moguls?
No.
Most skiers don't finish their turns off in steeper terrain and moguls because they get too small, too uphill or back, and too edgy.
When they start the next turn they're already travelling too quickly in the fall line and to manage this speed they brace and brake by planting the pole, applying pressure to the snow with their skis, and skidding the turn.
If you stay tall and light on flatter skis actively balancing with the pitch of the mountain you can pivot your way down steep slopes and through moguls with much less variation in speed on snow (less dramatic accelerations and decelerations) and without the need to pole plant.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Wed 28-08-13 12:07; edited 1 time in total
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Have to disagree strongly with Mike about use of poles not being beneficial for advanced skiers.
Proper use of poles will make you a much better and stronger skier in moguls, steeps and variable snow conditions.
Quote:
Waving the ski poles around like a conductor's baton may look dynamic and exciting but for too many skiers this eratic upper body movement is masking some very serious deficiences in the feet.
Taught properly a pole plant is just a subtle flick of the wrist, and no more.
The lower arms don't even need to move.
Funnily the 2nd skier you link to is actually already making this movement on most turns.
Pole plants helps
1) Timing (poles synchronise other movements)
2) Balance and Angulation (poles are a useful 3rd point of contact with the snow)
For sure you can get by with out using poles....
But there comes a point in advanced skiing where you will be limited by not using them.
Mike Pow, ...In the second, I see a skier who achieves more when he uses a pole plant, without one there is no flow. In both videos each turn, without a poleplant, looks like a lot of effort.
Maybe these two vids can give more of an indication.
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I'm very suspicious of anyone who claims to have found the holy grail of ski instructing including a couple of the most well known names in the business. Personally found those instructors who teach mainstream fundamentals are the ones who have improved my own skiiing. A different approach is good marketing as people are looking for a simple solution but good skiing fundamentals including pole planting are taught by the mainstream for a reason as they provide a sound basis. Certainly, think poles can be a hinderance and don't need to be a key focus up to intermediate level while more fundamental issues are addressed. I also find it helpful not to use poles as a drill to increase awareness. However, for more advanced skiing personally I find an effective pole plants improves my performance in shorts, bumps. steeps and vaiables.
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Mike Pow,
@ 0:09 of the first vid that looks like a pole plant/touch to me - you naughty boy !
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Haggis_Trap wrote:
Have to disagree strongly with Mike about use of poles not being beneficial for advanced skiers.
That's the beauty of forums such as these. The opportunity to share ideas.
Some of my opinions and ideas are very different from "common knowledge" and I accept that most will disagree with them.
There are many things I advocate and teach differently. Pole planting is just one of them.
Quote:
Proper use of poles will make you a much better and stronger skier in moguls, steeps and variable snow conditions.
I would say "can help to" rather than "will" and feel and believe that "it's not necessary to pole plant to become a better and stronger skier in moguls, steeps and variable snow conditions.
Quote:
Waving the ski poles around like a conductor's baton may look dynamic and exciting but for too many skiers this eratic upper body movement is masking some very serious deficiences in the feet.
Quote:
Taught properly a pole plant is just a subtle flick of the wrist, and no more.
The lower arms don't even need to move.
Funnily the 2nd skier you link to is actually already making this movement on most turns.
Pole plants helps
1) Timing (poles synchronise other movements)
2) Balance and Angulation (poles are a useful 3rd point of contact with the snow)
For sure you can get by with out using poles....
But there comes a point in advanced skiing where you will be limited by not using them.
I'm a pole dragger as much as I can be and agree that having both pole tips in contact with the snow massively aids whole body balancing with the pitch of the mountain through the curve of the turn.
And in the vids I've posted there are instances when the skier has gone searching for a pole plant. Old habits die hard.
The aim is to have the hands ahead of the torso, wider than torso width, with lateral movement to match the lateral balancing of the legs as you ski. The poles are just extensions of the hands aiding balance.
NOT the marker or trigger to turn as so many use the pole plant.
Sometimes the snow knocks you off balance - especially in deep powder - and there is a readjustment forward needed. This movement of the hands forward is not a plant in my opinion.
And I believe the skiing Ian and I are showing in the vids is of an advanced level but compared with what others on this forum achieve this may be intermediate level skiing.
I have seen many experienced, advanced skiers struggle and become exhausted in the powder and trees because of their fixation with pole planting and turning a shape and turning for turning sake rather than feeling the snow conditions and make the appropriate movements.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Wed 28-08-13 13:17; edited 1 time in total
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