So as not to derail the other thread I have picked up on Mike Pow's comment that he doesn't teach pole planting. On the other hand as I am sure many of you will have noticed rob@rar and others have positively encouraged me to actively pole plant because of numerous benefits this could bring to my skiing.
This strikes me as something that requires further discussion. The thread is now open, please fill your boots and explain for me which view is correct. FWIW it is a skill that, following some degree of effort, I have just begun to master.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Tue 27-08-13 18:46; edited 1 time in total
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
DB, I took a read, but neither really looks long and hard at whether the actual act of planting the pole is absolutely essential or whether you can ski perfectly well without it, as Mike Pow would seem to suggest.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Tue 27-08-13 18:37; edited 1 time in total
DB, ooh, that second one is a class example of that particular genre!
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Megamum,
Quote:
neither really looks long and hard at whether the actual act of planting the pole is absolutely essential or whether you can ski perfectly well without it
Pedantica, No it doesn't - it looks at carrying the poles, what people use them for, the fact that some pro skiers carry them, but don't pole plant, but very few of the comments look at the actual necessity or otherwise of actually planting the pole. I'd like to know why two esteemed instructors have such different views? Is it because there are as many different ways of teaching skiing as there are instructors, or because different 'schools' have different teaching methods?
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 27-08-13 18:45; edited 1 time in total
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Megamum,
May I humbly suggest that it is a skill that you may have begun to master?
Essential in bumps.
Helpful in deep and very helpful on steeps.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Megamum,
Quote:
what people use them for
Quite. Look carefully at that aspect, it's treated in some depth.
Last edited by After all it is free on Tue 27-08-13 18:46; edited 1 time in total
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under a new name, you may, and you would be correct - I shall edit the OP
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
I don't pole plant and I don't teach pole planting.
In my opinion pole planting to initiate a turn makes the skier small and heavy on the snow with the bodyweight uphill.
For most this necessitates a big effort to get the body into the fall line and often results in the 'Pop & Drop' manouevre of jerky movements, quick acceleration and decelaration at the start of the turn, and 'park & ride' z-shaped traverses.
I advocate having your hands wider than torso width, ahead of the chest, and roughly between hip and bottom of the rib cage in height - as if you're pushing a shopping trolley.
I try to keep the body and hands as square to the skis as possible throughout the turn with the only movement being a lateral movement to correspond with the longer downhill leg and the shorter uphill leg as I curve through the turn.
This lateral displacement of the hands puts the whole body in balance with the pitch of the slope and prevents 'tucking' into the hill.
Very different from what most instructors teach but my students are very happy with that and many other differences.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Mike Pow wrote:
I don't pole plant and I don't teach pole planting.
Very different from what most instructors teach but my students are very happy with that and many other differences.
Summative.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Mike Pow, that's what I wanted you to do
Quote:
small and heavy on the snow with the bodyweight uphill.
This is the bit that puzzled me. If the skier is reaching to pole plant below or to one side of the downhill ski how can their bodyweight be uphill, and why should it make the skier small and heavy on the snow?
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
skimastaaah wrote:
Mike Pow wrote:
I don't pole plant and I don't teach pole planting.
Very different from what most instructors teach but my students are very happy with that and many other differences.
Summative.
Had to look it up tbh.
And not really sure what your meaning is using this word.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Mike Pow, Your post on Intermidiot thread nails it. You've got the experirence and insight to do just that!
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Megamum wrote:
Mike Pow, that's what I wanted you to do
Quote:
small and heavy on the snow with the bodyweight uphill.
This is the bit that puzzled me. If the skier is reaching to pole plant below or to one side of the downhill ski how can their bodyweight be uphill, and why should it make the skier small and heavy on the snow?
By reaching to plant the pole "below or to one side of the downhill ski" 99% of skiers bend their knees and break at the waist to become smaller and by doing so become heavier on their skis by exerting more pressure on the snow in a bracing, braking movement.
Their planting pole, hand, arm and shoulder will be downhill, but to stay balanced whilst bracing and braking there will be unecessary and excessive balance on the uphill ski with the uphill hip tucked into the hill.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Personally, absolutely essential in bumps and steeps, and very very useful on anything in low vis.
As well as things like helping with rhythm (and the possibly dubious 'split-second advance knowledge of the snow you're about to turn on is like), I find pole plants essentially act as a trigger for a whole load of totally unconscious/instinctive muscle movements to make a turn. I don't like skiing without poles.
At high speeds and big turns, I don't use them.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Tue 27-08-13 21:49; edited 1 time in total
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
skimastaaah wrote:
Mike Pow, Your post on Intermidiot thread nails it. You've got the experirence and insight to do just that!
Sorry being a bit thick this evening.
Do you mean :
1. I've explained myself in the other thread (which I've reposted here)?
or
2. I have the experience and insight to explain myself, so now I need to do that?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Mike Pow, no problem with the concept for some circumstances and I'd agree that a poor pole plant could be a lot more detrimental to ones skiing than no pole plant whatsoever. Much better to start without poles altogether to get the feet doing the right things and id say that lots of people pick up poles too quickly.
Do you have any video demonstrating skiing different conditions and different turn shapes without the pole plant? Particularly interested in the circumstances I find a pole plant most useful ie bumps, steep terrain, offpiste and short turns.
Megamum, both views are correct, it comes down to what suits you at this stage of your skiing ability . I found that using pole plants on steep slopes helped me come down in slow small turns down the fall line. There is no one correct way of skiing.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I don't teach pole plant in lessons, takes ages, and people generally leave before getting to grips with it. If i had them for longer and a holiday (1 week) then i would be more likely to do so.
I will get anyone Basi or Eurotest wise to use a pole plant/touch on steeps and terrain changes to aid their balance and body position. Its a massively important skill at hight level performance skiing. Just watch slalom or moguls and its plan as day to see.
Break at the waste and knees and you dissipates force (heaviness) not increase it.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Mike Pow, I was commenting on your confidence to ski/teach as you see it, and how you want.
And I thank you for your honesty (and patience) when pressed regarding skiing skills and the teaching of them.
I can see where you are coming from with "pole planting to initiate a turn makes the skier small and heavy on the snow with the bodyweight uphill", and "I advocate having your hands wider than torso width, ahead of the chest, and roughly between hip and bottom of the rib cage in height - as if you're pushing a shopping trolley " (I tend to suggest the handlebars of a motorbike......... sorry )
BUT .......... I'm not suggesting the pole plant initiates the turn, rather I use the pole plant as a frame of reference to help initiate the turn, preferably in tandem with the transition phase.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Mike Pow, So if you ignore what my feet are doing (something that I am well on my to fixing if not already fixed re: the stem at the back, and getting the skis more onto edge) would you have had any problems with what my arms were doing in the video here: http://www.snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=2334717#2334717
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jjc james wrote:
I don't teach pole plant in lessons, takes ages, and people generally leave before getting to grips with it. If i had them for longer and a holiday (1 week) then i would be more likely to do so.
I will get anyone Basi or Eurotest wise to use a pole plant/touch on steeps and terrain changes to aid their balance and body position. Its a massively important skill at hight level performance skiing. Just watch slalom or moguls and its plan as day to see.
Break at the waste and knees and you dissipates force (heaviness) not increase it.
In the good old days............ extention and absorbtion, reployment, and avalement. Not least forgetting "jetting the turn". (Austrian ski school 1970's).
Massively important skill at anything intermediate IMHO.
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
Without getting sexiest - can we at least agree on "like pushing a shopping trolley" for the gals and "like riding a motorbike" for the guys
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
skimastaaah wrote:
Mike Pow, I was commenting on your confidence to ski/teach as you see it, and how you want.
And I thank you for your honesty (and patience) when pressed regarding skiing skills and the teaching of them.
I can see where you are coming from with "pole planting to initiate a turn makes the skier small and heavy on the snow with the bodyweight uphill", and "I advocate having your hands wider than torso width, ahead of the chest, and roughly between hip and bottom of the rib cage in height - as if you're pushing a shopping trolley " (I tend to suggest the handlebars of a motorbike......... sorry )
BUT .......... I'm not suggesting the pole plant initiates the turn, rather I use the pole plant as a frame of reference to help initiate the turn, preferably in tandem with the transition phase.
Thanks for the clarification.
I used to suggest the handlebars of a pushbike / motorbike too, but with that analogy I found it too easy for students to bank their turns and lean into the hill rather than balance to the outside and downhill curve of the turn.
What I teach is closer to what you see Speedway riders do as they turn.
Quote:
BUT .......... I'm not suggesting the pole plant initiates the turn, rather I use the pole plant as a frame of reference to help initiate the turn, preferably in tandem with the transition phase.
You're in the 1% then
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Elston wrote:
Mike Pow, no problem with the concept for some circumstances and I'd agree that a poor pole plant could be a lot more detrimental to ones skiing than no pole plant whatsoever. Much better to start without poles altogether to get the feet doing the right things and id say that lots of people pick up poles too quickly.
Do you have any video demonstrating skiing different conditions and different turn shapes without the pole plant? Particularly interested in the circumstances I find a pole plant most useful ie bumps, steep terrain, offpiste and short turns.
Both vids shot on Hokkaido, Japan.
First one is of Nerys, a beginner to skiing on her 4th ski trip.
Only ever been taught by me and with my style of teaching.
No bumps, but piste, powder and crud of varying pitches with varying turn shapes.
Hopefully you can see the relaxed discipline in Nerys' upper body with the feet and completion of the turn dictating turn initiation, direction and speed control.
Second vid is of my most accomplished student Ian.
He had skied before I met him and the ingrained desire to pole plant crops up every once in a while. But hopefully you can see he's skiing steepish and technical terrain with varying turn shapes in at times deep powder with a quiet upper body with no pole planting.
I'm tailing him with my poles in one hand and the Contour camera in the other - the ray gun. So no pole planting for me either
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Tue 27-08-13 20:59; edited 1 time in total
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
DB, yes, that link is much more about pole planting What I've found interesting is Mike Pow's, reasoning for not teaching it, something that I don't think arose from the links in your thread - many people noted that a load of folks don't pole plant, but fewer articulated a specific reason why not. I thought ski teaching arose from a fixed starting point, and therefore if one instructor advocated planting a pole then they all would. Apparently not! In that instance how does a learner know which instructor to listen to?
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Megamum wrote:
Mike Pow, So if you ignore what my feet are doing (something that I am well on my to fixing if not already fixed re: the stem at the back, and getting the skis more onto edge) would you have had any problems with what my arms were doing in the video here: http://www.snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=2334717#2334717
The link sends me to this thread not a vid
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Megamum, Teaching anything should be about achieving outcomes, through whatever approach the instructor finds best for the pupil. A pole plant isn't an outcome itself, it's one of many things that can be used to improve a turn.
You should listen to whichever you find the better teacher for your personal style/problems!
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Megamum wrote:
DB, yes, that link is much more about pole planting What I've found interesting is Mike Pow's, reasoning for not teaching it, something that I don't think arose from the links in your thread - many people noted that a load of folks don't pole plant, but fewer articulated a specific reason why not. I thought ski teaching arose from a fixed starting point, and therefore if one instructor advocated planting a pole then they all would. Apparently not! In that instance how does a learner know which instructor to listen to?
I was taught to pole plant, and was taught to teach pole planting in the CSIA and PSIA methodolgies.
When I was training for my PSIA Level 3 at Keystone, Colorado my instructor Annie Black taught a pole touch of the new uphill hand when the skis were already in the fall line and about to pivot or carve across the fall line.
This was done to stop the uphill / inside hand slipping back past the uphill / inside hip resulting in over rotation of the upper body through the turn.
Using this as my starting point over time I've found greater success at all levels, in all terrain, in all snow conditions by eliminating the pole plant and using the poles and hands as lateral balancing aids.
As to who to listen to, the person or instructor that helps you feel safe, confident and happy on snow.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Mike Pow, it might be an effective way to teach beginners good posture but in my view there is a point in one's development when the correct use of a pole plant is very beneficial, not least for flow, rhythm and timing. Personally, I will stick with the pole plants.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Megamum wrote:
DB, yes, that link is much more about pole planting What I've found interesting is Mike Pow's, reasoning for not teaching it, something that I don't think arose from the links in your thread - many people noted that a load of folks don't pole plant, but fewer articulated a specific reason why not. I thought ski teaching arose from a fixed starting point, and therefore if one instructor advocated planting a pole then they all would. Apparently not! In that instance how does a learner know which instructor to listen to?
On easy terrain while doing medium to long turns I don't normaly plant the pole, maybe a touch or almost touch. For me it's keeping the hands forward flowing with the turn that's important to help maintain the right body position. However in the steeps or bumps I'm fighting to stay out of the backseat and the pole plant helps me to stay forward. The pole plant gives me an additional reference and helps maintain rhythm (esp in short turns / powder) . There are also times when I want to get my skis out of the snow and will really use my poles (e.g. Breakable crust)
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Tue 27-08-13 21:18; edited 1 time in total
Mike Pow, it might be an effective way to teach beginners good posture but in my view there is a point in ones development when the correct use of a pole plant is very beneficial, not least for flow, rhythm and timing. Personally, I will stick with the pole plants.
If you feel that pole planting is beneficial to you and affords you better "flow, rhythm and timing" then absolutely stick with it.
I'm just presenting an alternative which I feel simplifies the learning experience and gets students into more varied terrain and snow conditions quicker.
Hopefully the vids demonstrate that you don't need to pole plant to experience "flow, rhythm and timing" in skiing.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Mike Pow, hmmm, but in your second vid your star pupil has mastered skiing a straight line in decidedly un-Euro terrain
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Mike Pow, in first video I see linked traverses with no dynamism. In the second, I see a skier who achieves more when he uses a pole plant, without one there is no flow. In both videos each turn, without a poleplant, looks like a lot of effort.
After all it is free
After all it is free
DB, nah, that's just fashion and additional sponsorship space.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Mike Pow wrote:
Hopefully the vids demonstrate that you don't need to pole plant to experience "flow, rhythm and timing" in skiing.
Not sure about the whole not pole planting thing, but what it did demonstrate is that I need to go skiing in Japan
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Elston wrote:
Mike Pow, in first video I see linked traverses with no dynamism. In the second, I see a skier who achieves more when he uses a pole plant, without one there is no flow. In both videos each turn, without a poleplant, looks like a lot of effort.
I think you're being a little unfair there, about the first video. If you check out some of mike pow's Japan season reviews, you'll find several videos showing her progress - which is very quick, with nice powder skiing pretty early on.
FAQ
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