kitenski, Hopefully your mates still take the wee wee out of your BASI skis, Head Titans - it's like they come with the pass certificate
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
fatbob, they were amazed at my skills in the powder on them.......
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
There are plenty of instructors at dry slopes with qualifications arguably lower than BASI L1 such as SSE L1 and CSIA L1. When my daughter shadowed the highest qualified was CSIA L2. All of her shadowing was instruction (although she did have an hours tuition in binding adjustment) and ranged from a 2 year old child, learn to ski in a day sessions, school taster sessions, etc. The most advanced skier amongst them was still a relative beginner.
I suspect too that the standard of candidates on courses varies. When she did hers, as well as her (16) there was a woman in her 40s (who failed) doing it to help her skiing, a young guy in his 20s and the rest were 17/18 year old racers including internationals. TBH she found it a lot tougher than expected.
Elston, remember that L1 candidates will typically have had a lot more practice doing the sort of long and short radius turns you see in those videos (as they're the sorts of turns they'll actually use when skiing) than they will have had doing a snowplough, so they will probably find doing a good snowplough much harder than you, or they, would imagine. A good demo of a snowplough is not easy, no matter how good the rest of your skiing.
I agree a good snowplough isnt easy, even more so if you dont have solid fundamentals, so another reason it would be worth seeing. I am doing my level 1 next weekend and expext that it will be a difficult part of the course because after all its one of the main things you will be teaching.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
So by the sounds of it then, once you get to be a 'better' skier you never resort to using a snowplough? (Well if you did you would not find it hard to demo eh?). When I ski (OK, I'm not in the category of 'better' skier yet) I still find a snowplough a fundamentally useful thing to have available. Particularly on a packed narrow path type track, which I've occasionally found myself on. When I have need to stick behind a cluster of learners or an ESF string of slowly snowploughing 3 years olds for any length of time. Don't you 'better' skiers ever find yourselves in situations where a snowplough would be a useful solution?
Megamum, There's snowploughs and snowploughs After her course my daughter described hers as perfect and it had to be to pass. Not suggesting yours isn't perfect btw
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Megamum,
Quote:
Don't you 'better' skiers ever find yourselves in situations where a snowplough would be a useful solution?
'better' is only relative to bad in my case, but yes.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Quote:
So by the sounds of it then, once you get to be a 'better' skier you never resort to using a snowplough? (Well if you did you would not find it hard to demo eh?).
There's quite a difference (rightly or wrongly) between the sort of thoughtless snowplough you use occasionally in 'real skiing' (ie just make a triangle with the skis and carry on as normal) and a proper demo showing (exaggerating) the correct posture/movements/etc for clients. When you're not used to snowploughing 'properly' and haven't for years, it can take quite a bit of work to get it nailed.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Claude B, clarky999, good point. What I do is a sort-of-stem, not a BASI-approved snowplough!
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Megamum wrote:
Don't you 'better' skiers ever find yourselves in situations where a snowplough would be a useful solution?
This is what i imagine although i could be way out.
Some people purely associate speed with competency (ie I ski fast therefore I must be good). So, in general its because people usually think they are better skiers than they actually are. Hence, they struggle when they slow things down a bit and try to do things properly/to a specified criteria.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Snowploughs are incredibly useful in situations where there is no space to turn.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Megamum, I snowplough all the time. Well, not ALL the time, but very frequently. Immensely useful. Although I would shudder from describing me as "better" - "time served" might be more apt.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
There's a difference between doing something and doing something the proscribed way?
I also snowplough when needed probably with horrible form.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Megamum, A group of us once spent practically a whole I.O. clinic with Scott working on trying to perfect travelling, stopping and turning using a snowplough (including backwards and with eyes closed, although not both at the same time ). Spending this much time on it makes me that think skimottaret would actually say that it was a useful tool for skiers of all levels!
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Iski, I can't do one backwards (I don't like doing anything backwards! Damn silly idea is backwards, I inevitably end up flat on my face with skis at at irretrievable angle suffering suitable embarrassment). However, I think I am relatively OK with a forwards one. In fact I am sitting here puzzled as to what is so difficult with them that skiers capable of a L1 find them awkward?
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Megamum, then you probably haven't listened... For instance, is your snowplough more like:
Do you see the difference? When demonstrating for clients you really have to be perfect, and exaggerate the movements you want them to replicate. Whereas decent skiers skiing 'normally' will usually only snowplough at low speeds, on flat slopes and not in critical places, so tend to do it very lazily as it really doesn't matter in such situations.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Arno wrote:
under a new name, AIUI, L1 was introduced as a filter to prevent people who clearly weren't up to it from turning up at L2. When I did it, you didn't really pass or fail - you got a recommendation of what you needed to improve and how long it was likely to take before coming back to do the L2
That was the BASI Foundation course (which I did) that was always held in an alpine environment and tested you on all the same criteria as the L2. It was prior to the 4 BASI levels and not a qualification in it's own right, just (as you've rightly said) a test to see if you're good enough to turn up for what is now L2. The L1 snowdome course replaced it.
When I first joined Snowheads I got embroiled in a rather heated argument (which I don't really want to repeat) for basically saying that L1 was a joke qualification that any vaguely competent adult skier could pass in a snowdome. My criticisms weren't aimed at the skiers so much as at BASI for 'selling the dream' to people that the majority of which had no hope of ever being an ISTD (Full Cert Instructor). Therefore it's largely just a money making exercise for BASI.
To put it into context, an L1 only gets associate membership of BASI. You have to pass L2 to be a full member (a licenced instructor at a low level). But both an L2 and an L3 are only perceived as trainee stages of instructorship on a world scale. So that makes an L1 a trainee trainee!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Raceplate wrote:
... for basically saying that L1 was a joke qualification that any vaguely competent adult skier could pass in a snowdome.
True - the technical level of skiing required for L1 is not high.
Any half competent punter could pass. But you also need to demonstrate basic teaching ability and safety awareness.
However : many UK recreational punters who think they are pretty good at skiing would benefit from going back to school and learning how to snowplough properly For example you can only snow plough properly / effectively if you are standing on your skis with a proper stance. Going back to basics and the fundamentals really helps develop your own skills.
Raceplate wrote:
To put it into context, an L1 only gets associate membership of BASI. You have to pass L2 to be a full member (a licenced instructor at a low level). But both an L2 and an L3 are only perceived as trainee stages of instructorship on a world scale. So that makes an L1 a trainee trainee!
Not true.
BASI L2 can be used to teach anywhere in the world (even France if you pass the test technique).
L3 (ISIA) is equivalent to the top level in many systems.
The L4 only really applies to those that wish to teach in France longer term.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Thu 25-07-13 22:38; edited 2 times in total
To put it into context, an L1 only gets associate membership of BASI. You have to pass L2 to be a full member (a licenced instructor at a low level). !
That's wrong! You are an Associate Member until you also complete shadowing, child protection, 1st aid, etc, etc and then after paying an extra £20 you get full membership.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
clarky999 wrote:
Quote:
So by the sounds of it then, once you get to be a 'better' skier you never resort to using a snowplough? (Well if you did you would not find it hard to demo eh?).
There's quite a difference (rightly or wrongly) between the sort of thoughtless snowplough you use occasionally in 'real skiing' (ie just make a triangle with the skis and carry on as normal) and a proper demo showing (exaggerating) the correct posture/movements/etc for clients. When you're not used to snowploughing 'properly' and haven't for years, it can take quite a bit of work to get it nailed.
That is because beginners haven't yet been introduced to the concepts of pressure and rotation.
At the start a snow plough is all they know to control speed. It is the first thing you learn after straight running.
So 'begineer' and 'expert' ploughs are indeed different turns.
FWIW : Plough / Stem Christy is a good tool for expert skiers to have in their bag for nasty breakable crust
It not just a beginners turn !!
To put it into context, an L1 only gets associate membership of BASI. You have to pass L2 to be a full member (a licenced instructor at a low level). !
That's wrong! You are an Associate Member until you also complete shadowing, child protection, 1st aid, etc, etc and then after paying an extra £20 you get full membership.
and pass L2...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Wrong again! I've just paid to upgrade my daugher to full membership!
After all it is free
After all it is free
Haggis_Trap,
Quote:
BASI L2 can be used to teach anywhere in the world (even France if you pass the test technique).
Yeah, theoretically. How many L2's do you know that would pass a Test Technique?
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Claude B wrote:
Wrong again! I've just paid to upgrade my daugher to full membership!
Really? Didn't realise they'd lowered the bar that far. Must be short of cash.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
It's a real mixed bag of opinion huh? Some seem to think it is difficult to pass, others claim it is a bit of a joke qualification to sort the wheat from the chaff... Here's an interesting fact, BASI specifications state that candidates for level 1 should have 16 weeks skiing under their belt before they start the course - as someone who'll be applying for my level one probably next year, I won't have anything like that much. I'll have 7-8 weeks, along with regular snowdome practice. Of course, I'm doing regular practice with the Uni snowsports club and actively working to make sure my stance and technique are correct, but even so the difference in time concerns me.
In the same vein though, I comfortably ski deep powder and black runs with moguls - surely BASI 1 can't present any real struggle if I do my prep prior to the course? L2/L3 and onwards will obviously require more work, but I'm fortunate enough to have the time to put that work in. Just want to get my foot on the ladder. Thoughts? Advice is always appreciated
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Haggis_Trap,
Quote:
L3 (ISIA) is equivalent to the top level in many systems.
Yeah but that's the stamp not the card. We both know that's not really the top level don't we...
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Raceplate wrote:
Haggis_Trap,
Quote:
BASI L2 can be used to teach anywhere in the world (even France if you pass the test technique).
Yeah, theoretically. How many L2's do you know that would pass a Test Technique?
Depends if they are a decent skier or a typical UK punter doesn't it
I know plenty very good skiers (some ex-olympians) who went no further than a humble BASI L2 because they didn't see ski teaching as a full time career.
I have one mate who just quit his job as a school teacher at age 33 and is thinking about becoming a stagiere with the ESF with his L2 plus test technique. Hopes to pass the Euro Test in 3 years and become a full time ski instructor.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Fri 26-07-13 7:50; edited 1 time in total
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
rasmanisar wrote:
Just want to get my foot on the ladder. Thoughts? Advice is always appreciated
If you're that age and it's just the first step to eventually becoming full cert there's nothing wrong with it. Get it out of the way and start progressing up the ladder. You're the right age.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Raceplate wrote:
rasmanisar wrote:
Just want to get my foot on the ladder. Thoughts? Advice is always appreciated
If you're that age and it's just the first step to eventually becoming full cert there's nothing wrong with it. Get it out of the way and start progressing up the ladder. You're the right age.
That's the plan. I'm 19 at the moment and have another two years at Uni during which I want to get as much experience as possible and ideally qualify for my L2 by the end of my third year. My plan is to really train for my quals so that when I come to take them I don't come up against the technique barrier that some people describe.
Fortunately by the time I finish Uni I'll already be a fully qualified MTB guide (MBLA+IML, so good enough even for the french's haughty standards), and thus should be able to earn enough to pay my way through the training in the winter.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Raceplate wrote:
Haggis_Trap,
Quote:
BASI L2 can be used to teach anywhere in the world (even France if you pass the test technique).
Yeah, theoretically. How many L2's do you know that would pass a Test Technique?
Most of the Brits who have done Test Technique training in Tignes the last few autumns have been L2, some of them have passed.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Haggis_Trap,
Quote:
Depends if they are a decent skier or a typical UK punter doesn't it
I know plenty very good skiers (some ex-olympians) who went no further than a humble BASI L2 because they didn't see ski teaching as a full time career.
But isn't that the whole point? BASI ARE largely catering to UK punters who can't ski so they should have the decency to realistically outline what they can (or most likely CAN'T) achieve.
I can't remember the numbers exactly but off the top of my head there are 4-6,000 BASI L2's. How many ex-olympians are there? 4,5? 20 if we include all the very good skiers you know? What's that as a percentage of L2's that would pass a Test Technique?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
rjs wrote:
Most of the Brits who have done Test Technique training in Tignes the last few autumns have been L2, some of them have passed.
Right, so SOME of them passed. Great. So a small percentage of the very, very small percentage of L2's that thought they might be good enough to pass a Test Technique managed to pass. And the other 5,000 odd weren't daft enough to entertain the idea because they already know they're not good enough.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
rasmanisar, how's your snowplough, snowplough turn and plough parallel? All much more important at l1 than your ability to ski powder....
3 good skiers failed the l1 my wife did due to not being able to do 'the basics' at a slow speed to required standards
rasmanisar, how's your snowplough, snowplough turn and plough parallel? All much more important at l1 than your ability to ski powder....
3 good skiers failed the l1 my wife did due to not being able to do 'the basics' at a slow speed to required standards
Slightly above average at the moment (assuming average is pretty bad), but I'm working on basic techniques like those at the snowdome once a week, along with the occasional freestyle mess-about to keep the boredom at bay! When I learnt to ski I did very few lessons and progressed to parallel as fast as possible, hence why I'm really putting the effort in now. I need to get the basic stuff nailed at the snowdome, so that when I go out to the mountains I can focus on cementing my carving and parallel rather than having to spend time doing the basic stuff. As long as I apply myself the technique will come.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
kitenski wrote:
3 good skiers failed the l1 my wife did due to not being able to do 'the basics' at a slow speed to required standards
No offence but if they can't snowplough to L1 level I think I doubt your judgement of what a 'good skier' is!
3 good skiers failed the l1 my wife did due to not being able to do 'the basics' at a slow speed to required standards
No offence but if they can't snowplough to L1 level I think I doubt your judgement of what a 'good skier' is!
I tend to agree Raceplate but a friend of mine (ex WC racer) failed the wedge turns portion of his instructor exams . How I laughed . But this was CSIA L3 not an entry level qualification. They don't bother with wedge turns at CSIA 3 and 4 any more.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Kenny, I did my L2 with Noel Baxter (WC racer) in my group. He was L4+ (complete different class, including the Trainers) in everything except snowplough which, frankly, he was rubbish at On the day before our final assessment our trainer gave us a feedback score for each discipline and I was the only one in our group with a pass grade in every discipline. Noel was failing on his snowplough. But if you think for one second that a bunch of BASI Trainers aren't going to pass a Scottish WC Racer for his L2......
Just in case anyone thinks I'm being disingenuous, Noel was a really nice guy and a fantastic skier; easily the best skier I've ever been out with and it was obvious that all the Trainers were in awe of his ability too. But there is a world of difference between an amateur 'good skier' who can't do a snowplough at L1 and a WC Racer who can't regress far enough to do one at L2....
After all it is free
After all it is free
What's plough parallel? I can't get my head round the geometry. Unless BASI have gone all non-Euclidean. In which case, does L4 come with a free warp drive?
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Raceplate wrote:
So a small percentage of the very, very small percentage of L2's that thought they might be good enough to pass a Test Technique managed to pass.
The point is that if a humble L2 can be used to teach anywhere in the world
.... even France if you are also good enough to pass the Test Technique (which is much easier than Euro Test).
Raceplate wrote:
But isn't that the whole point? BASI ARE largely catering to UK punters who can't ski so they should have the decency to realistically outline what they can (or most likely CAN'T) achieve.
BASI are clearly catering to a wide range of instructors - from people who just want to teach casual hours on a dry slope (L1-L2) to full time instructors based overseas (L3 or L4 specifically for France).
L3 is equivalent to the top level qualification almost every where in the world, and is very achievable to anyone of a decent ski ability. For sure the L4 is tough, but only essential for France - no point blaming BASI for setting bar high at L4 to comply with French rules.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
under a new name wrote:
What's plough parallel? I can't get my head round the geometry. Unless BASI have gone all non-Euclidean. In which case, does L4 come with a free warp drive?
Check out the second video I posted above, from where they show the 'C Group' level - snowplough to begin the turn, then sliding the uphill ski into a parralel position as you come across the fall line.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
After her course my daughter described hers as perfect and it had to be to pass. Not suggesting yours isn't perfect btw 
). Spending this much time on it makes me that think 
. How I laughed 
On the day before our final assessment our trainer gave us a feedback score for each discipline and I was the only one in our group with a pass grade in every discipline. Noel was failing on his snowplough. But if you think for one second that a bunch of BASI Trainers aren't going to pass a Scottish WC Racer for his L2......
