He he....
Video of James Aubrey Rosbon here (I am loving the politicians hand gestures )
Felt obliged to leave some "kind comments" and links on his crowd funding appeal....
Q. Why did Snow & Rock (the UKs largest ski retailer) stop selling this "transmit only beacon" from their web site last winter ? It was listed on their web site but later removed, what feedback did they give you ?
A. "We are in negotiation to supply our emitters to a number of retailers both in the UK and abroad. As you can understand until the contracts are signed and the emitters in the shops, the names of the companies remain confidential.
Furthermore, our business plan offers multiple routes to market with the wholesale element making up but a part of our sales strategy and projections.
Sales with Snow + Rock specifically remain under review following a short trial period and do not form part of part of our projections. During the trial period some comments were posted on their webpage following an on-line discussion raised on a ski chat site.
The forum discussion petered out following the Les Arc on piste avalanche on Good Friday 2013. The tragic event again demonstrated that not only do avalanches occur in resort and on piste, they also kill people.
To recap, the 41 year old mother was skiing on piste with her husband, child and instructor when she was buried in an avalanche 50m wide and 200 long. She was buried for more 30 minutes before being dug out and air lifted to hospital.
She died the following day.
If she had been wearing a piece of active signalling equipment like our emitter, she would have been found more quickly thereby significantly increasing her chances of survival.
Our aim is to encourage skiers of all ages to understand their environment, take an active part in managing their own safety and improve their chances of surviving an avalanche when skiing in resort.
James"
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Yep everyone gave up because a tragic event "proved" his business model was sound. Tool. No addressing the point on what her professional moniteur was doing at the time re her safety or a consideration of the statistical significance of the event. How deep was she buried? How long until pisteurs arrived on scene etc etc?
"Would have been found more quickly thereby significantly increasing her chances of survival" is a powerful statement but is in fact no more than speculation.
If she and her party had all been wearing full transceivers and had appropriate training then her party would have been able to commence primary search immediately which may have led to an even faster recovery. This feels like a more appropriate conclusion for the paranoid to draw.
Quote:
"Our aim is to encourage skiers of all ages to understand their environment, take an active part in managing their own safety and improve their chances of surviving an avalanche when skiing in resort."
Which is why CSS have invented the purely passive device, which relies entirely on others who are suitably equipped.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
He's very inventive when it comes to wording isn't he? Subtley suggesting that thread 'petered' out because the on piste avalanche which caused a death proved his device thereby rendering the objections invalid. When in actual fact it was him that ran out of arguments to counter the objections.
After all it is free
After all it is free
I would have said that "managing your own safety" when skiing means not only wearing something that means you can be found, but ensuring that those around you are carrying the necessary to find you. If 100% of skiers take that view point then it means we all have to carry something capable of finding as well as something capable of being found.
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Clearly he's coming at it from the point of view that the Pisteurs are the ones tasked with rescuing avalanche victims, not other skiers.
The problem comes with the expectations we have of the Pisteurs, and of our fellow skiers. For an on piste avalanche it would currently be expected that most people would have no gear. And if they did have gear, how many piste only skiers would know how to use it? So even if every skier was carrying a transceiver the people buried would be relying on either the pisteurs, or someone passing who knew how to search. The example of the 6 year old is an interesting one. If she had been wearing a transceiver then it is possible she would have been found faster. But that's not guaranteed. And do you think that the 6 year old would stand any chance of doing a search if her instructor was buried? Not really... So what use is the search function on a transceiver worn by a 6 year old?
Of course on piste avalanches are not common, and I do deplore this transmit only beacon as it will inevitably be used by people going off piste with the expectation that the pisteurs will find them.... But the original specified purpose of the product - to help the pisteurs find people buried in on piste avalanches is an interesting one. I just don't think this is the right solution.
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^ a simple RECCO pad (sold with many jackets / ski trousers) performs the same function as the "on piste emiiter" for much less cost. arguably it is even better as searchers can sweep a very large area using RECCO detectors from helicopters once they are on site. however very few people have ever been found alive using RECCO.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
flaming, I have a 7 year old nephew who can find a hidden transmitter in a garden with another one.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
FWIW : It seems Cambridge Ski Safety sold roughly 76 units last year (£3828 / £50).
They did however spend £60K on marketing and other overheads!
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Haggis_Trap, isn't that because the Recco detectors were original.y so expensive that very few resorts invested in them, somewhat rendering the technology useless?
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
^ Apparently 700 resorts worldwide are equipped with RECCO.
Megamum, The exception rather than the rule I would think!
I actually don't think transceivers are the answer for on piste avalanche "risk management", as if they came the norm any on piste rescue situation would have so many active transmitters in the vicinity that finding the buried one would be very difficult. It's hard enough trying to get everyone in an experienced off piste group to switch their transceivers to search - imagine doing that with a few hundred bystanders/helpful volunteers all transmitting.
I've been told by someone who should know that the Recco is very difficult to use, and Pisteurs arguing about where to site the dish is apparently not uncommon. Interestingly though, I was also told that a mobile phone is just as effective as a recco pad at returning an Echo when the phone is on. Perhaps that would be a better avenue for research? I'd wager that most people caught in an on piste slide would have a mobile phone in their pocket - so is there a simple device that could find the signal it transmits regularly looking for a base station?
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
flaming wrote:
Megamum, The exception rather than the rule I would think!
I wouldn't - kids are generally very quick to learn and good transcievers are hardly difficult to get your head around (IMO - I've only played with a couple, and briefly at that, but it wasn't hard to figure out).
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Haggis_Trap, and the technology was launched when? We'd never have known fax machines if (?) Panasonic had seen that sort of uptake.
Anyway, can we alll remember that your chance of getting caught in a slide on piste is vanishingly small.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
under a new name wrote:
Anyway, can we alll remember that your chance of getting caught in a slide on piste is vanishingly small.
Yes, and as they say on Dragons' Den sometimes... "you've invented a solution to a problem that doesn't exist"
bobmcstuff, +1, I saw my first transceivers at a ski show, and you just follow the strongest sounds and lights (OK perhaps a tad more than that, but its certainly not complicated - it would rather defeat their object if they were as you need to be able to use them when you might not be thinking straight). My pair though older got to grips with the concept in minutes, but as I say my nephew who is only 7 also didn't have a problem with it either. They aren't rocket science IMO. If you decide you want one then IMO far better to invest your cash in the real thing. If initially you only want to use it on-piste then you have it to learn with/kids learn to grow up using them, and then you already have what you need when you decide you are ready to go off piste.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Bode Swiller, you've seen a yeti? My leopards love ytei, but it's pretty hard to get a Tesco to stock it.
After all it is free
After all it is free
bobmcstuff wrote:
flaming wrote:
Megamum, The exception rather than the rule I would think!
I wouldn't - kids are generally very quick to learn and good transcievers are hardly difficult to get your head around (IMO - I've only played with a couple, and briefly at that, but it wasn't hard to figure out).
I would think many kids are able to operate a transciever well enough to find another in the garden - they're simpler to use than most games consoles these days.
I would be very surprised if many kids have the presence of mind/ability to deal with stress to actually think to use one in a real scenario, let alone the physical strength to clamber around a field of avi debris, and even less so the strength to dig through that debris.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Quote:
I would be very surprised if many kids have the presence of mind/ability to deal with stress to actually think to use one in a real scenario, let alone the physical strength to clamber around a field of avi debris, and even less so the strength to dig through that debris.
I agree regarding the strength to dig someone out, for that they may have to rely on a bystander's assistance. However, regarding presence of mind/ability to deal with a stressful situation you might be selling our kids short. These days even things like emergency resuscitation, recovery position and basic first aid are regularly taught to primary school kids and it is not uncommon for the media to report remarkable stories of what kids have achieved in terms of saving the lives of their parents and siblings. I doubt that schools would waste the resources on such teaching sessions if it was thought that kids wouldn't be able to apply what they have learned.
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
Bump 'cos yer man has only 6 days open left on his funding opportunity and only has to raise a further £149,280 to hit his £150k target. So better get in quick or miss out.
Sweepstake on where next the zombie resurrection will occur?
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
So who's the idiot who's put up £780?
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
If you want give people the sense of more protection on piste and get more people on mass to use a transmitter, then re-develop a smaller cheaper Recco style reflector chip that is embedded into everybody ski pass! mass produce it so it is cheap enough and is sold as standard in the same way you naturally pay 3 euro for the magnetic pocket pass. Or start with a ski pass protective sleeve that is a cheap add on with one in or on it? That way you will have it on you every day.
With the publicity that would come with such a project could be used to promote better safety awareness / training and encourage people to take an active part in managing their own safety which will be more of a life saver. I whole hardheartedly agree with peoples comments that on this forum "that people should carry a transmitter with receiver capability and have the training or practice to use them". But when you see people on the slopes that don't know how to simply carry their skis properly you realize the magnitude of avallanche awareness.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
skiwithease, I have never skiied off piste and have no particular interest in doing so, so my question/comment below is more than tinged with ignorance.
1. Do we really need to give people more protection on piste? Are pistes not safe enough already? I know on-piste avalanches happen, but they are very rare.
2. Does it actually help to give people a
Quote:
sense of more protection on piste
or is it counter-productive?
3. Doesn't the RECCO system already offer what you suggest? It's extremely cheap, already built in to a large proportion of ski wear etc. What's the problem?
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
foxtrotzulu, Not in your order but
1 RECCO is essentially a corpse retrieval system (although obviously not marketed as such). However in the event of an on piste avy in a resort equipped with RECCO one would expect them to pop a heli up with the transmitter/receiver immediately.
2 On piste avalanches resulting in full burial are very rare. In the event that one occurs your best chance remains companion rescue.
3 The best protection for most piste skiers is to be alert to their surroundings and their companions. Don't breeze past piste closures in the spring and after heavy snowfall pay attention to what is happening above you and most importantly stay on piste if you don't know how to evaluate risks.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Children aren't the only ones who would struggle to do the necessary in the event of an avalanche. But for kids who ski off piste, learning how to use the equipment, and finding out how hard it is to dig through avalanche debris is surely an extremely good idea? If only to realise that hanging a piece of electronics round your neck and carrying a probe isn't necessarily going to keep you and your companions safe. People learning to sail all do "man overboard" drills - and the more realistic ones (using a real person or a damn great sack of something heavy, rather than a couple of fenders tied together) are sobering experiences which can do a lot to persuade people not to fall overboard in the first place.
As for keeping safe on piste, learning to ski well and sticking to the piste safely rules would probably be a lot more useful, even if not very lucrative for Mr Whatsit.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
The other point to remember about RECCO, is that helicopters cannot fly in bad weather.
I was skiing in Les Arcs last season on the day of the on piste fatality. It began snowing early in the morning and continued throughout the day. We had a great afternoon skiing in the trees with our guide, but there was no way a helicopter could have taken to the skies in those conditions.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Foxtrotzulu, My post was in response to the Cambridge gadget with its "transmit only" function for "only on piste" use. By reading and watching some video links and the comments of the tread may hold the answers to the questions you raise. Cambridge seem to be trying to promote their product based on simplicity of use, cheapness, and marketing it (perhaps to a lesser perceived avalanche tech savvy 100% piste skier market?) and placing a heavy emphasis on the small but very real danger of piste avalanches which are not as rare as we would like to think and do not have to be large to cause serious injury or death. These avalanches often start off piste and cover pisted runs and can catch people like yourself, minding their own business with no intention of off piste skiing! Here is on of many case and point examples http://www.planetski.eu/news/3540
Of course having any kind of equipment can alter a mindset and it be a double edged sword. It could open a debate of "does tech increase danger?"... Ski GPS for example can encourage people to goad each other to see who has skied the fastest and can lead to someone skiing above their ability or loosing sight of safety for those around them. ABS avalanche breathing system has featured high in conversations on mountain safety courses I have been on, trainers say that they may give a false sense of protection or security to the wearer who may make an off piste run that if without, they may have thought twice or given the pitch a little more respect.
Perhaps I saw an example of equipment having an effect on mindset and a piste avalanche? Last season I was nearly caught in what could have been something more serious when a young guy armed with a go pro head cam was trying to show off, thinking he was some kind of extreme skier in a totally inappropriate and irresponsible place. He had climbed above a green run and was balancing on a steep pitched bank of snow above a ski tunnel, I noticed him at the very last moment just as I entered the tunnel with my client when he set off a considerable amount of snow that fortunately missed us. Would he have been behaving like he was if he wasn't wearing a head cam possibly attempting to capture his next social media post?
Your on piste safety can very much depend on the people around you and their actions of which most often are out of your control.
Although resorts do a good job securing the pistes with controlled explosions etc I do think ski pistes could be made a little safer with a more active piste security by giving them powers to reprimand or revoke passes for dangerous and irresponsible behavior. When I worked in the States and Australia you got a marker pen cross on your pass if you were doing something stupid and if caught again had it revoked.
Getting back on to the subject matter. Might a transmit only Cambridge system or a Recco reflector in the hands of someone with insufficient knowledge of its limitations alter a mindset enough to take a cheeky dip off the side of a piste and into a higher danger area? who knows!. However "I think of a Recco style reflector system as a Bad luck percentage improver".
True as you said ski clothing do use the Recco reflector tag but it is still only "some" quality brands and to some extent as you say serves the porous. but to buy a set on their own to stick on a helmet or something will set you back about 30 Euros. (Depends what you call "extremely cheap"?) Cheap to me is a few euros that gets more people to have them on their person in a ski piste environment where they may serve some usefulness. I was simply raising a "concept" suggestion to improve a low tech reflector creating a cheap and affective method of distribution by adding to a lift pass card so as to be more widely used, and with i, increased mountain awareness education along with the techs limitations.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Apologies, I am struggling to reply to all the above commemts as I can't use 'quote' on an ipad.
It looks as though we all agree that you need some decent kit (not RECCO or Cambridge) for off piste skiing.
Nobody is suggesting we need transceivers for on-piste.
richjp, can't underrstand your point about helos not flying in bad weather. RECCO detectors can be hand carried in much the same way as I presume skiwithease, "s detector would be. No difference.
skiwithease, i totally agree with you about what a bad idea the Canbridge system is. What I am struggling with is the supposed advantages of the ski pass system you propose. Yes, it would be more omnipresent than RECCO, although I was under the impression that most ski kit was already fitted with RECCO. (Has that lessened recently)?
Reccom works best with two reflectors (I assume to ensure at least one is not shielded by your body) so your system might be at a disadvantage. Incidentally, I gather skiwear manufacturers fit them into left arm/right leg to achieve this. Clever!
Cost: RECCO might cost E30 to buy at retail, but the wholesale cost is obviously far, far lower. I have seen posts elsewhere of the bare reflector/chips being sold ofor about 25p each. That makes more sense.
I have looked through some avalanche casualty data for a few years past, and the only on-piste fatality I could fnd in the last 15 years was Les Arcs. So, I would be surprised if there was a market for a new device. Surely the answer to the on-piste issue is simply to re-invigorate RECCO? I gather that RECCO have stopped selling separate reflectors, possibly because of them littering the mountain and leaving false positives. I have seen a few skipasses on the pistes, but never seen a jacket or pair of trousers!
foxtrotzulu, one of the reasons people have been so against the Cambridge device here is that it's marketed to scare people and inflates the actual risk to an individual massively. Not only is this rather dishonest but could put people off because of the perceived risk and raises the perceived risk of on piste avalanche over some of the more dangerous bits.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Quote:
richjp, can't underrstand your point about helos not flying in bad weather. RECCO detectors can be hand carried in much the same way as I presume skiwithease, "s detector would be. No difference.
Can they? I don't know anything about it, but was lead to assume they were large bulky things, with the advantage that they can scan a large area in one go. You lose that advantage if you have to manhandle it over a field of debris.
richjp, can't underrstand your point about helos not flying in bad weather. RECCO detectors can be hand carried in much the same way as I presume skiwithease, "s detector would be. No difference.
Can they? I don't know anything about it, but was lead to assume they were large bulky things, with the advantage that they can scan a large area in one go. You lose that advantage if you have to manhandle it over a field of debris.
They used to be, but now weigh less than 1Kg and can be used from a helo, or by hand. Have a look at the video on the RECCO website.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
The video presentation is embarrassing and such poor content. No case for the device itself - other than it is less expensive than other solutions - and no explanation how it works or case for why it's better?!?!?!
After all it is free
After all it is free
meh,
Quote:
foxtrotzulu, one of the reasons people have been so against the Cambridge device here is that it's marketed to scare people and inflates the actual risk to an individual massively. Not only is this rather dishonest but could put people off because of the perceived risk and raises the perceived risk of on piste avalanche over some of the more dangerous bits.
Couldn't agree more. I think some people were under the impression I was in favour of the Cambridge system. Absolutely not! My question was whether
skiwithease,'s suggestion of a RECCO like system incorporated into skip passes/holders was a good idea. My view was that:
1. We already have a system that is well established (RECCO) and probably sufficient for on-piste skiing.
2. Raising awareness HAS to be a good idea, if done carefully, but one of the strengths of the RECCO systemn is that, because it is so unobtrusive it does not give people the false confidence to go off-piste and think they are protected.
You could certainly argue that RECCO should be improved and skiwear manufacturers strongly encouraged to fit the reflectors, but a whole new system?
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flowa, Your comment appeared in the midst of a discussion about RECCO. I assume you are talking about the Cambridge system, and not RECCO?
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
A RECCO detector can be carried in person but it's a bulky piece of kit - I recall seeing something like a Sky dish with a big old style radio backpack when some pisteurs were training. I also understood that modern electronics like ubiquitous mobile phones were capable of reflecting the signal.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
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