Gravity, I take it that this works by setting your phone up to be a WiFi hotspot. I have a couple of problems with that. Firstly radio at 2.1GHz doesn't penetrate water very well, so I doubt it penetrates snow very well either. The 5GHz band is probably even worse for this. Not sure. Secondly the phone will be eating battery at a furious rate. How long is this supposed to last? Thirdly there are quite a lot of documented cases of phones interfering with normal Avi Beacons. I can imagine that having the phone continuously transmitting might make matters worse.
Just sayin...
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
A really BAD IDEA.
Firstly the idea that something that does not work with regular beacons can be used instead - this is a very dangerous concept.
As Steihang says these phones on transmit all the time will just hinder a search with normal beacons, worst with the modern 2 and 3 antenna digital ones than older analog ones.
Hopefully one or more of the major players in the industry will have a polite word with the providers of these Apps and heave them removed form existence!
Tom Greenall BEng Electronic and Electrical Engineering!
I think the safe thing will be to wait until the use of GPS is recognised within the standards that transceivers have to operate within, and I feel that we are some way off yet.
Oh and on a fun note imagine if the Isis system auto updated your friends Facebook page as well "Help I am stuck in an avalanche" or whoops no, "its just a serious case of apres ski falling over"
another issue to me seems to be the effect of very low temperatures on smart phones
2 seasons ago, when it was -25 in flaine, 3 of my mates had Iphone 3 and they all stopped working in the cold, only my ancient nokia would work. as Steilhang, suggests phones eat batteries rather quickly and they all use rechargable battery tech, as far as i remember my bca beacon specifically states only use new alkaline batteries, and not rechargeables.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Wouldn't use it in the mountains but could I use this for practising here in the UK (I only have 1 tranceiver)? If I trusted it enough to bury my phone that is
After all it is free
After all it is free
Claude B, no, wouldn't work with a normal transceiver. The phone transmits on a completely different frequency.
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Yip, terrible idea and morally irresponsible.
- Not compatible with existing standards for avalanche beacons. Rescue services have no idea what system you are running.
- Mobile phones interfere with normal avalanche beacons.
- Smart phone battery life is poor, especially in the cold.
- Best to keep your mobile phone on a separate battery (so you can call for help)
- Every group member would need to be running the same application. App encourage punters to ski off piste without a beacon.
FWIW a smart phone avalanche beacon app will never work well unless the phone hardware contained a specific 457KHz antenna. Which is unlikely to happen as it would be bulky and expensive.
EDIT : Original poster Gravity = Snøg Avalanche Buddy = Bart Friederichs (creator of the app!)
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Thu 4-07-13 9:26; edited 2 times in total
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
livetoski wrote:
I think the safe thing will be to wait until the use of GPS is recognised within the standards that transceivers have to operate within, and I feel that we are some way off yet
GPS is unlikely to be used for avalanche beacons in the near future.
- GPS doesn't propagate through snow reliably and can sometimes reflect off rock.
- GPS takes time at start up to locate all 12 satellites and fix a position accurately.
- GPS chews battery
- The US military could in theory turn the system off or reduce accuracy at any time.
- Consumer GPS accuracy is only about 3-5m accurate at very best. Large mountains can also shadow the satellite signals and reduce accuracy.
457kHz was chosen for good reasons.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
when does the lynch mob set out for this lot then? or have you had your fun with the transmit only beacon, nothing worse than part time heroes
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
It's about time though that the technology used in current transceivers is updated universally.
It would be good to see a transceiver which pinpoints the target without going round in circles and comes with a one page manual. It won't happen for a while though.. as is such a niche market and manufacturers know that.. but it will. We simply can't carry on using (sw souped up ) donkeys years old technology when lives are at risk.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
allanm,
Indeed.
And it seems they need to if we are so worried by interference from mobile phones - or is this the same as the phones on planes
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
geeo, in what way does slating a shît idea make you a 'part time hero'?
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
allanm wrote:
It's about time though that the technology used in current transceivers is updated universally.
It would be good to see a transceiver which pinpoints the target without going round in circles and comes with a one page manual. It won't happen for a while though.. as is such a niche market and manufacturers know that.. but it will. We simply can't carry on using (sw souped up ) donkeys years old technology when lives are at risk.
^ You are going to have to change the laws of physics then As magnetic flux lines will always follow an arc.
Modern 3 antenna beacons are really easy to use though : BCA T2 for example could be used by a 5 year old.
The only improvement that could be made to the existing standards is to transmit a unique code from each beacon for multiple burials - however that would be of debatable benefit (and is heading off topic).
stuarth wrote:
allanm,
And it seems they need to if we are so worried by interference from mobile phones - or is this the same as the phones on planes
EMI interference is a tremendously complicated issue. Especially for something like an RF transceiver (avalanche beacon) which needs to be accurate and sensitive. 457kHZ was allocated as it is actually one of the quieter frequency bands that will propagate through snow and is also not polluted by other RF signals such as TV / Radio signals. Even if avalanche beacons could use a different frequency band it wouldn't make the problem go away, just move it to a different frequency range. The airwaves are getting ever more crowded with WI-FI and bluetooth signals (etc) - and the only way to ensure that there is no interference at a specific frequency is to turn off all other nearby electronic devices....
Modern beacons are much better. My 10 year old ortovox used to be terrible in the presence of a mobile phone. Newer beacons have narrow band digital filters and seem to perform much better. However I would still switch phone off when skiing out of bounds (if nothing else it saves the battery if you need it in emergency).
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Its really simple, don't compromise safety for cost!!!
Make sure you are properly equiped for back country / off piste.
To be fair a pukka beacon at £300 isn't that expensive given trhat it may well save your life, reliance on an untested, unregulated, unproven 'app' seems a little foolish to me.
Its certainly good idea to carry a phone with you to call the services you need after an avalance, probably best to leave it turned off until you need it.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Haggis_Trap,
Quote:
My 10 year old ortovox used to be terrible in the presence of a mobile phone
Was that with the phone just in idle or while it was making a call? I ask because my even older analog Ortovox F1 never had any problems at all with idle phones.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
^ in search mode my old X1 use to go bananas if you put it within 25-30cm of an idle nokia mobile phone. Interesting you dont see this with F1 - however my guess is that the noise probably depends more on the source (i.e model of phone) than the beacon which is always looking for 457kHz.
FWIW : the top t-bar at Glencoe is a good demonstration of RF interference. if you put your beacon into search mode within 5-10m of the tow they generally goes a bit nuts (even modern beacons). the electrical power supply is obviously emitting EMI noise in the 457kHZ band.
Haggis_Trap, yup, different phones will certainly show different characteristics. I always used Samsung. Anyway, long story short, relying on a phone that is transmitting at 2.1GHz continuously, which is wholly inappropriate for transmission through snow, and which is going to be messing up regular (searching) beacons, is just not a good idea.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Steilhang, Traditional Wi-Fi works at 2.4 GHz, not 2.1
Everybody knows that mobile phones don't cause interference, that is why they use them on planes.
Steilhang
Everybody knows that mobile phones don't cause interference, that is why they use them on planes.
^ Not true : All electronics must be switched off at take off and landing.
EMI interference is a complicated issue - it depends on the bandwidth of the noise source and also sensitivity of the receiving wireless module. There is no guarantee that a cheap PC / phone / MP3 player from China won't be emitting RF noise across a very wide ranges of frequency - which could easily interfere with other wireless devices. Especially as the regulations and guidelines for different devices differ greatly. Baby monitors are good example - some of them are known to stop the WIFI in your house from working properly.
Without doing a proper test, with expensive spectrum analyser, you can not say there is "no interference". Especially as all mobile phone (i.e potential noise sources) are different designs. Though because people cant see / hear / touch the radio waves they assume that everything will be ok
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Haggis_Trap wrote:
rjs wrote:
Steilhang
Everybody knows that mobile phones don't cause interference, that is why they use them on planes.
^ Not true : All electronics must be switched off at take off and landing.
I didn't bother with an emoticon for that statement as I think there are just too many people who do believe it these days, they are going to keep writing apps for phones even if they are told it is a bad idea.
The first Bluetooth development kits came with a CD full of documents on case studies of consumer electronics affecting aircraft navigation systems.
After all it is free
After all it is free
geeo wrote:
when does the lynch mob set out for this lot then? or have you had your fun with the transmit only beacon, nothing worse than part time heroes
It's pretty widely accepted that app "beacons" are a poo-poo and dangerous novelty. It's almost beyond derision. But at least users must clearly understand that they've got something that is worse than useless. Pros won't be looking for them with that nonsense and mobile phones are notoriously unreliable in cold, wet, mountainous environments and trauma. So by all means spend a few quid on your poo-poo app, take chances and die.
The difference here is that we don't see one man's deranged ego and some supposedly respectable stores like Bartlett and S+R masively dropping the ball by selling these things.
Anyway on that matter James Aubrey Robson is trying to crowdfund his business now - the fool doesn't give up
Last edited by After all it is free on Mon 1-07-13 13:20; edited 1 time in total
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rjs,
Quote:
Traditional Wi-Fi works at 2.4 GHz
right, I was getting 3G mixed up with WiFi. Anyway that probably makes it even less appropriate for use in the snow. The rules about use on aircraft are on the point of being overturned AFAIK. At any rate some airline operators provide WiFi right now and some have mobile phone connectivity on board as well.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Quote:
The difference here is that we don't see one man's deranged ego and some supposedly respectable stores like Bartlett and S+R masively dropping the ball by selling these things.
I wonder who you mean
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
^ Seems that James Aubrey Robson is trying to raise 150K !?
What a clown...
"We make personal ski safety devices because avalanches continue to claim the lives of adults and children who ski in resort and on piste.
Called an emitter, the likelihood of a person surviving an in resort avalanche is significantly increased if they are wearing one.
In order to access the £6 billion spent annually in the ski market we successfully launched our product at ISPO '13 in Munich and following 2 years of fully funded R&D the unit is now available in the UK, Sweden, France and Switzerland.
The monies raised will be used to build-up in stock levels for the 13/14 ski season, increase brand awareness and expand our marketing operations.
Our realistic plans for developing the business, with its conservative forecasting, are based on a readily achievable 3-year sales strategy. The sales target for the period equates to a 3% penetration rate in UK and 0.2% worldwide.
The business and its supply chain have also been designed to cope with a rapid up-surge in orders following high profile events and greater than anticipated market take-up.
There is excellent potential for strong,continued growth beyond 2016 as there are 35 million people within the affluent family ski community worldwide.
There are in excess of 1 million skiers in the U.K. and we have developed multiple routes into this market. These include direct sales to ski school trips, commission-based sales in resort using holiday company resources, high street retail and web-based sales as well as rental opportunities.
The high-tech product is designed and built in the U.K. and we are able to offer bespoke souvenir and corporate sponsorship limited edition models.
Supported by UKTI, we have access to extensive sales networks within Europe, North and South America and are part of their Passport to Export programme. As part of the E.U we also benefit from unrestricted access to 70% of the worldwide ski market.
Our streamlined structure and local resourcing allows us to benefit from flexible production pathways, short lead-in times and excellent payment terms. The Company has very low overheads and has been set-up to operate in both the wholesale and retail markets, maximising both opportunity and profit margins.
Our goal is to make avalanche safety accessible for everyone and to highlight this we sponsor Anna Turney, Paralympic downhill ski racer. Anna, like the majority of skiers, is unable to take part in an avalanche rescue yet deserved the right to be found.
Key investment highlights
Meets criteria for both EIS and SEIS tax relief schemes
Anticipated pre-tax Net profit in year 3 in excess of £ 700,000
Anticipated cash reserve in year 3 in excess of £950,000
Projected company value by end of year 3 in excess of £2.2 million
Projected company value by end of year 5 in excess of £8 million
Exit Strategy
The ski industry continues to consolidate with the acquisition of innovative independent companies and brands by multinational corporations.
The company brand and product lines are being developed in such a way as to maximise the shareholder value and with a view to selling the company in the medium term.
About James Aubrey Robson
I came to skiing later in life and have learned the hard way that it's a dangerous sport. Standing on the top of a mountain with only a pair of wooden planks strapped to your feet isn't the most risk averse thing you can do - but it's amazingly fun!.
The emitter was originally designed for my daughter, who was 6 at the time. I want to be able to protect her to the best of my ability and that meant giving her the opportunity to be rescued alive.
As a Chartered Engineer I've worked in mining, construction and insurance and I'm all too aware of the value and vulnerabilty of life.
In resort avalanche fatailities are mostly avoidable even if the avalanche itself is not.
Just to bring a product to market that has the potential to save lives is not enough; my personal motivation is to ensure sufficent emitters are sold so these tragic events can be averted."
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
James Aubrey Robson wrote
Quote:
Our goal is to make avalanche safety accessible for everyone and to highlight this we sponsor Anna Turney, Paralympic downhill ski racer. Anna, like the majority of skiers, is unable to take part in an avalanche rescue yet deserved the right to be found.
What a w ankerr! He manages to be both insulting to disabled skiers in equating their mobility issues with the average lazy cheapskate joe shmo and pompous about "rights" in the same sentence, all in an attempt to justify his hopeless product. When you've been destroyed twice , most people would give up, he just keeps on digging. Hopefully he'll go on Dragon's Den too and get pounded.
Anyone who knows Anna, might be worth giving her the heads up.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Quote:
In Saas Fee Austria a six year old died...
Seems like his geography is not too hot either.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Bingo!
"rapid up-surge"
I would like to see a down-surge.
Doesn't he just mean "surge".
He's raised £190 so far, this time next year Rodders, etc.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Steilhang,
If mobile phones were really a problem for planes, then everyone would have to turn them in at the door. Besides I reckon the radar might be a slightly stronger source of interference...
RF was never really my thing, but could you avoid/mitigate the harmonics of phones with a more sophisticated transmitter/receiver? Spread spectrum...? If you are looking for a relatively low rate spread and coded signal rather than a bog standard fixed frequency wave then surely it is quite easy to filter interference - happy for some radio guru to explain why this is not the case of course (is there a geek smilie )
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
stuarth, I think we agree!
I'm not sure how the transceiver signal is coded, but I suspect it isn't at all. Like you say, some coding would go a long way to sorting out spurious signals from other sources.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Thanx for all the reactions and all, but did anyone actually tested it?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Gravity wrote:
Thanx for all the reactions and all, but did anyone actually tested it?
^ Did you actually read any of the technical reasons why no one should download your app
Well, yes i did. but i only read a bunch of assumptions, so called technical reasons stated by, with all respect, not from a very technical perspective.
battery this and that (?), that's why beacons use alkaline (?!!), Wifi doesn't go through water (?!!!) so snow wouldn't work (??!!!!), 2.4 Ghz is even less usefull than 2.1 Ghz (????!!!!!!), phones are not relaiable in extreme conditions and so on. I bet Nasa uses alkaline batteries to all their equipment these days. I bet they use the same technology like they did back in the 60-s.
No it is not my app at all, but i had this discussion before with some friends so i am already aware of the bit extreme emotional reactions in the "conservative freeriding scene". Using a different username.
anyway i did some small test this winter which worked out pretty well so far. I'm just looking for some other people who tested it as well. and could share their experiences. based on facts, without any assumptions..
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Wed 3-07-13 8:18; edited 2 times in total
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Quote:
I bet Nasa uses alkaline batteries to all their equipment these days. I bet they use the same technology like they did back in the 60-s
Arrays of 18650 Lithium Ion batteries, which are very much not 1960's technology. Just in case anyone was genuinely interested.
Right! and why? because one aspect is that they deal better with extreme conditions than older type of batteries.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
With Li Ion being the last type of battery I'd rely upon for any kind of safety device for use in cold weather. So that rules out phones, especially if they're more than a year old.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Gravity, you may not be aware of this but 2.45GHz is the frequency that is used by microwave ovens. Why? Because that is one ofthe frequencies at which absorption by water molecules in the food is particularly efficient. The same appiles to ice. Also consider that mobile phone frequencies in the 1800MHz - 2100MHz range are more susceptible to attenuation by buildings, water and air than the 900MHz frequencies... the lower the frequency the less it gets attenuated. Like someone said the 457KHz frequency used in beacons was chosen for a reason, and mobile phones cannot produce a 457KHz signal
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Steilhang, well I guess the victim could use their mobile emitting at a microwave frequency to melt their way out of the ice
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Gravity wrote:
Well, yes i did. but i only read a bunch of assumptions, so called technical reasons stated by, with all respect, not from a very technical perspective..
Gravity,
5 simple reasons not to use a smart phone application for avalanche rescue.
1. Not compatible with existing international 457kHZ standards for avalanche beacons. Rescue services have no idea what system you are running.
2. Mobile phones can interfere with normal avalanche beacons.
3. Smart phone battery life is poor, especially in the cold with WIFI or GPS running all day.
4. Best to keep your mobile phone on a separate battery (so you can always call for help in emergency if required)
5. Every group member would need to be running the same application. Application therefore clearly encourages punters to ski off piste without a beacon.
Gravity wrote:
already aware of the bit extreme emotional reactions in the "conservative freeriding scene". Using a different username.
... because this is a safety device and someones life may depend on it.
Mobile phone applications will never be acceptable unless the phone hardware contains a 457kHz antenna and separate (AA) battery for the phone & beacon sections. Both of these are unlikely to be added by Nokia / Apple / Sony (etc) any time soon.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
"Help I am stuck in an avalanche" or whoops no, "its just a serious case of apres ski falling over" 
)