 Poster: A snowHead
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we have one life, we shouldnt be pigeon-holing our kids into education just to satisfy Government statistics. There is more to life than the ultimate highest achievement at other costs.
Parents do not have 13 weeks to do as they please with their kids when the children are not at school - parents are generally working during this time. A week off with the kids is a valued time in my household and most others, I would imagine. If £400 means the difference between a child having a holiday with its family and taking a well considered week off as opposed to the family not being able to afford to go away then I am all for the family going away. Most families have two working parents these days and families are so pressured that they are not having quality time with their families.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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In addition, what about those families who are unable to get time off work during the allocated school holidays because so many others are taking time off at the same time?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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foxtrotzulu, School absenteeism has relatively nothing to do with skiing. Parental choice of term time skiing even less. (Opinion, I know) More likely the trans-generational neglect of learning brought about by political sloganism such as "Education. Education. Education!"
Ed Balls, by the way, is possibly the one Education Minister that may just ensure UK schools perform better when he becomes PM. Until that time the leftist tendencies continue to base their comprehensiveness on rather dodgy 1950's statistics, the conservatives on the other hand tend to use inclusiveness as a meal ticket for defunct Comprehensives whilst driving them towards the precipice that is "Academy Status".
FYI there is only one set of indicators that limit "education"............. values, attitudes, and beliefs.
Value education, believe in education, and foster attitudes to further education.
Ever wondered why it's the old Grammar Schools/Selective/Single sex schools that outperform on the league tables?
BTW...... in 2007 UK was 8th in global statistics, 2011 15th, and 28 in 2013.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Sun 1-06-14 21:18; edited 1 time in total
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skimastaaah, I have no doubt that Ed Balls would make a better PM than an economic secretary to the Treasury. Happily for him the bar was set so low his previous efforts that the only way is up. Happily for us we will never see him as PM.
Regarding the statistics. We are clearly looking at different ones. I was using the PISA ones which seem to be pretty well respected. Your ones may well show something different and I respect that. If your stats show a marked drop which is not in line with the previous trend then that's an issue. However, bearing in mind that almost none of Gove's reforms came in before the study in 2013 then I still think it is less than fair to blame him.
Putting aside all this bitching and petty squabbling I think that the loss of grammar schools was a major loss for everyone, not just those who attended them. I also think that UK education has been trundling along and comparing results to how it performed historically. The issue is much more about how we perform compared to China, Japan, Korea, the USA and so on.
IMO the situation regarding UK education is critical. We need to work out how we can compete, educationally, with other nations. Spending more time skiing and bunking off school is not helpful.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Sun 1-06-14 14:40; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
Putting aside all this bitching and petty squabbling I think that the loss of grammar schools was a major loss for everyone, not just those who attended them.
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Again, how come Scotland does better than England in the PISA results without having had any sort of 'grammar school' system. There were junior and senior secondaries up until the '60s but certainly nothing in the last 50 years
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feef, Good question regarding Scotland to which I don't know the answer. The difference between Scotland and England is pretty slight in the PISA tests and not consistent across all three tests. However, Scotland's better performance could be down to a whole range of reasons. It could be their curriculum is better, the teacher training may be better, they certainly appear to be better funded, class sizes are smaller, teacher's pay is better and so on.
Regarding grammar schools, I am not sure it would make a significant difference to PISA results, but I do think it would help social mobility which has been declining pretty steadily since their abolition.
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foxtrotzulu, it is not bunking off skiers that do the UK education system down by 5 days off in the spring term. It is the 500000 dysfunctional, dismissive, serial non attenders destined to prop up those NEET numbers over the next decade.
Bless Mr Gove's socks for turning a blind eye to the attendance in PLSU's, PRU's, SILC's, and BESD facilities (averaging less than 50%), and chastising the 20000 go skiing term time.
FYI 98.6% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
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skimastaaah, I don't doubt that the persistent truants are the biggest problem but the general consensus of the independent experts and is that even low levels of absence can be detrimental, especially in the early years. I thought it would be in the older years, but apparently not.
I know this is a skiing forum, but it's not just the skiers who are the problem, it's every other Tom, Dick, or Harry who take time off for cheaper summer hols, accompanying parents on the Haj, visiting families abroad etc, etc.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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foxtrotzulu, ............. aha, you're a "nurture" as opposed to "nature" educationalist I presume.
Damn, whatever did happen to Eysenck, Piaget, and Peters? Not PC enough for the 21st century!
That nice Mr Gove should just take heed of the NEETs, they don't need no education, they need just enough school to perfom. (I'm thinking Tesco's, Morrison's, et al).
Anyway foxtrotzulu, I won't disagree with you about percentages of absenteeism having a detrimental effect on the future grades at GCSE. I just believe it is counter productive with the development of many young people (and their parents) to have term time choice restrictions that limit their experiential learning as for example over costly ski holidays in peak weeks.
I still believe that parental choice in this matter should be given priority. Furthermore, the imposition of blanket policies clearly indicates the lack of higher order thinking by Mr Gove (and his advisors). Next the nanny-state will dictate the colour of pens pupils can use, and that teachers can only mark in green pens, then use a purple pen for the 2 stars and a wish.
FFS, where is the creative genius in the DfEE? Now that's what is sadly lacking in schools. 
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Every child and every parent is different thus the degree to which a child's education is hindered (or enhanced!) by time out of school is different.
My son is predicted A/A* across the board in the GCSE's he is currently sitting, with maximum UMS points in both languages at which he operates at Yr 13+. He has had at least a week off, often two every year of his educational career both primary and secondary and indeed had a full season out in Yr 6. Arguably his grades would have been marginally enhanced by attendance during those times, (I doubt it actually) but IMO his educational development would have been infinitely poorer. Had his head teacher(s) been shackled by current education policy, he would in both my opinion and that of said head teachers been very much the worse off.
As has been said before, Gove should tackle the absenteeism caused by " the can't be bothered" who will be the future drains on society and leave those of us who want to add to the education of our kids not subtract from it alone to do so.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Annie, nice post!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Annie, ...... you'll be a "nature" as opposed to "nurture" proponent......... sadly that nice Mr Gove makes that intuitive/experienced choice for you now.
I doubt you claim benefits for LDA. 
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sadly that nice Mr Gove makes that intuitive/experienced choice for you now.
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not really, just means that if you decide to go on holiday in term time the absence is likely to be marked as unauthorised. Not a big drama provided you don't make a habit of it.
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you'll be a "nature" as opposed to "nurture" proponent.
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that hardly follows from Annie's post which suggests that the way she has nurtured her son, which included a nice long spell in France, as well as shorter holidays, has been good for him.
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You know it makes sense.
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Well my eldest had two weeks off almost every year till exam year got A and A* then at college ( not a good one ) he excelled and attained straight A. So how has having time off effected him ?
Well maybe in that we went to a lot of historical sites in Europe and he has decided on Civil Engineering for his degree.
As others have mentioned those who are habitual truants or taking time off because parents can not be bothered are the ones that need targeting, but like everything else with our political/legal system they have to punish everyone because they have not got the intelligence to do their job correctly.
If we had not gone at a cheaper time and by cheaper I am talking less than a quarter of the cost of going during the summer holidays, we would have only been able to go once or twice in all those years. Would this have then meant he was not interested in Civil Engineering and so not be doing a degree in that subject.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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These points have probably been made before - apologies if so, but I've not really been following the thread and it's a pretty long one. For those who made the points already, then I agree…
I'm not particularly convinced by arguments about the educational value of holidays looking at historical sites or skiing to be honest. I see how much value kids get when they come to stay with us here - summer and winter - so I'm not suggesting that such trips aren't beneficial, but I think whether such trips turn out to be "educational" depend on the individual kids and the parents (I certainly remember being dragged around "boring" places as a kid by my history-loving parents, with me being far more interested in the tourist tat/ice cream stalls out in the street than how old the building was or whatever). I certainly don't think "educational" trips should be given preference over a beach holiday when it comes to pleading a case for term time breaks.
I am more convinced by the need to spend family holiday time, wherever that may be, doing whatever that family enjoys doing together. Aside from the fact that term-time travel is more affordable, we have a few friends with kids in school now, and this year it has been impossible for some to book even a one-week, no cost, "stay-at-home" summer holiday as a family because the competition for annual leave during those 6 weeks is fierce, and both parents can't get the same week off.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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this year it has been impossible for some to book even a one-week, no cost, "stay-at-home" summer holiday as a family because the competition for annual leave during those 6 weeks is fierce, and both parents can't get the same week off.
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in these circumstances and provided the children have otherwise good attendance records they should simply inform the school of the situation and the dates when they will be taking their holiday. The absence might be authorised, but if it's not, no big deal.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I know that's what one couple have decided and their 6 year-old son was really upset and didn't want to do it, as he will drop off the top of the "Gold Card" rankings and won't get to go to Chessington for the day with a small number of other children with perfect attendance 
(to be fair to the school, it was on the "failing" list for a while, and it's really done a lot to move through "improving" to "good", and tackling attendance has been a part of that).
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| miranda wrote: |
I know that's what one couple have decided and their 6 year-old son was really upset and didn't want to do it, as he will drop off the top of the "Gold Card" rankings and won't get to go to Chessington for the day with a small number of other children with perfect attendance
(to be fair to the school, it was on the "failing" list for a while, and it's really done a lot to move through "improving" to "good", and tackling attendance has been a part of that). |
Hold on, so to reward children with 100% attendance they get to have a day of not attending school?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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their 6 year-old son was really upset
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poor kid - bit of a dilemma! I'd never be in that situation as I was always delighted by a good enough excuse to get a few days off school. My Dad always went on holiday in June - because he didn't like crowded camp sites, ferries, etc. Until I had my tonsils out I had bout after bout of tonsillitis which gave me plenty of legitimate (if rather painful) time off and what with measles, chicken pox and the usual gastric upsets as well, I'd never have been in the running for a "perfect attendance" award! My son in law's school does trips for kids with the right ticks in boxes, but perfect attendance isn't the only way of getting a seat on the bus. Indeed, it wouldn't get them on the bus if their behaviour and effort hadn't been good too.
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NickyJ, yes, they get a day at Chessington as a reward. As I said, the school was on the "failing" list for a while and was "improving" when my friends started their kids there, at a time when people were moving out of the area or remortgaging to go private rather than send their kids to the school. The head had a tough job convincing some of the parents about the benefits of regular attendance, so she changed tack and went for the children instead… seems to be working.
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miranda, it just strikes me as very perverse.
I personally think regular attendance is very important, but I also do believe the heads should have the power to authorise for individual children in their circumstances. Mi have applied for and been granted in the past. I am also doing my best not to now that eldest is in juniors school. The only reason she is not on 100% attendance is she needed a doctors appointment and the only time I could get without making something wait for 3 weeks which was too long, was a 9am one so the missed registration (but didn't miss much of he lesson itself).
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This is one of the biggest gripes with all this. ( Schools taking kids on day trips to theme parks).
Schools, Local Gov and Central gov are all saying it is fine for THEM to take YOUR kids out of school for a non essential non educational day at a theme park but god forbid the actual parents should think they have any rights what so ever to even consider time off school !
Just who's kids are they ?
About time this and other gov were put in their place after all how much did they steal in false expense claims and we should listen to them ? They have not got one shred of intelligence or decency between the lot of them.
They are in breach of human rights straight off because any of you reading this who are not married but have kids the Gov have given more parental rights to the school than you have, ( normally applies to the father).
The fines are exactly what they look like, a money grabbing exercise by corrupt people who think they can do what they want and sod everyone else, they are nothing to do with increasing attendance for the vast majority of kids.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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my kids have missed several days school this term - representing the school at inter-school athletics - but ask to take the to thr TdF 
One of them will miss a day tomorrow as he is assisting the running of a Primary School Sports day
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but the general consensus of the independent experts and is that even low levels of absence can be detrimental
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But, as has been said before, these experts merely recommended tightening up the existing rules and not changing them.
Like many others I think the changes stink, but as pam w, has rightly pointed out several times, just go! It is highly unlikely that anything will happen other than the day being marked as unauthorised. In Northants you need to have taken over 10-days in a 6-month period before they will fine you - check your Authority guidelines.
I'm still going to maintain that this rule will be quiely changed in a few years when the rate of unauthorised absence has sky rocketed
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Oh dear, every time I come to this thread I promise myself I'll just let it go, but I can't!
speed098, I agree that the educational value of a day at the theme park is extremely questionable. However, the law says that our children must attend school and broadly speaking I think that schools are in a better place to decide what is in the best educational interests of our children.
[quote]
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The fines are exactly what they look like, a money grabbing exercise by corrupt people who think they can do what they want and sod everyone else, they are nothing to do with increasing attendance for the vast majority of kids.
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It costs more to issue and collect the fines than the value of the fines received, so I rather doubt that is the case. Even if it was, who do you imagine benefits?
Boris,
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But, as has been said before, these experts merely recommended tightening up the existing rules and not changing them.
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Two points: 1. The main change has been to allow absence in 'exceptional circumstances', not 'special circumstances' . When the rules were written I don't think anyone ever envisaged this would include having 10 days on the beach in term-time because it's cheaper/quieter etc. The problem was that people tore the ar$e out of this dispensation and, according to reports, teachers have felt unable to rein in the abuse. A tightening up/change of the guidelines was inevitable. Like you I wish that teachers had a little more flexibility to allow the genuinely 'special' cases while throwing out the spurious. Sadly, this culture of rules, systems and procedures does not really allow for that so we end up with one rule for all.
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my kids have missed several days school this term - representing the school at inter-school athletics - but ask to take the to thr TdF
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Representing the school at inter-school athletics is infinitely more educational than attending the warm-up day of the TdF as a spectator. As you know, you can attend the Grand Depart and Stage 1 without any problem.
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I'm still going to maintain that this rule will be quietly changed in a few years when the rate of unauthorised absence has sky rocketed
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It may be changed, it may not. However, indications so far show that unauthorised absence has not rocketed, it's plummeted.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I have no problem with the concept of kids being rewarded with a school outing to a theme park for perfect attendance/best behaviour/most effort etc. - it's good that kids view a day off from studying to do something fun as a special treat, and as something dependent on consistent effort throughout the rest of the year as assessed by the people who are actually in the classroom day in, day out, with those children. If a kid misses the reward because the parents can't afford the time or money to travel during the school holidays and takes them on unauthorised leave, then I guess they learn the lesson that grown ups aren't free to do whatever they want, when they want, either.
In the case of my friends, the head said she could not authorise the leave but at the same time she wouldn't make a fuss, not least because they've been committed and supportive as governors, PTA etc. On the other hand, another family was taken to court and fined ~1.5k for persistent non-attendance.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Isn't there another strike action by teachers proposed this month? That'll be another day's education my children can't get back. 
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another family was taken to court and fined ~1.5k for persistent non-attendance.
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Good. Persistent non-attendance is not acceptable, and not fair on the kids.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Have I missed something? The headmaster apologised unreservedly for not realising the request was for a funeral, said he took all the blame for the mistake, and that they would make sure a similar mistake didn't happen again… and the girl still went to her grandfather's funeral… why is that in the newspaper??!
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Poster: A snowHead
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why is that in the newspaper
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because it's the Daily Mail. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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[quote="foxtrotzulu"]Oh dear, every time I come to this thread I promise myself I'll just let it go, but I can't!
speed098, I agree that the educational value of a day at the theme park is extremely questionable. However, the law says that our children must attend school and broadly speaking I think that schools are in a better place to decide what is in the best educational interests of our children.
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The fines are exactly what they look like, a money grabbing exercise by corrupt people who think they can do what they want and sod everyone else, they are nothing to do with increasing attendance for the vast majority of kids.
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It costs more to issue and collect the fines than the value of the fines received, so I rather doubt that is the case. Even if it was, who do you imagine benefits?
Boris,
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But, as has been said before, these experts merely recommended tightening up the existing rules and not changing them.
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Two points: 1. The main change has been to allow absence in 'exceptional circumstances', not 'special circumstances' . When the rules were written I don't think anyone ever envisaged this would include having 10 days on the beach in term-time because it's cheaper/quieter etc. The problem was that people tore the ar$e out of this dispensation and, according to reports, teachers have felt unable to rein in the abuse. A tightening up/change of the guidelines was inevitable. Like you I wish that teachers had a little more flexibility to allow the genuinely 'special' cases while throwing out the spurious. Sadly, this culture of rules, systems and procedures does not really allow for that so we end up with one rule for all.
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my kids have missed several days school this term - representing the school at inter-school athletics - but ask to take the to thr TdF
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Representing the school at inter-school athletics is infinitely more educational than attending the warm-up day of the TdF as a spectator. As you know, you can attend the Grand Depart and Stage 1 without any problem.
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I'm still going to maintain that this rule will be quietly changed in a few years when the rate of unauthorised absence has sky rocketed
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It may be changed, it may not. However, indications so far show that unauthorised absence has not rocketed, it's plummeted. |
Ok so who says schools are in a better place to decide what is in the best educational interests of our children ? After all if that was the case home schooling would not be allowed.
If the LAW says our children MUST attend school then the school CAN NOT organize any trip to places such as theme parks because doing so is breaking the LAW ! after all you even admit that the educational value of a day at a theme park is extremely questionable.
WHY can they not organise it for a weekend or during a school holiday ?
So it costs more to get the 1.5k fine mentioned above than the cost of the fine ( if they had any inclination to make it something to encourage attendance they would not have given one week to pay or it doubles.They would not have made the fine applicable to each parent ( in some cases a parent who may not have been aware of the unauthorized absence.
If attending inter school athletics is infinitely more educational than going watching the TDF the biggest single sport event in the world surely under that same logic a week skiing or a week diving is infinitely more educational than an inter school athletics event.
We do not live in a country of do as I say not as I do ( well not yet and I hope people in this country stand up for their rights, so we never do ).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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After all if that was the case home schooling would not be allowed
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it is allowed but parents can't just do whatever takes their fancy - they are inspected.
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in some cases a parent who may not have been aware of the unauthorized absence.
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a fine will only be levied after a considerable amount of unauthorised absence and after some other hoops have been jumped through. Any parent who is not even aware that their child is missing serious amounts of school is not really doing their job properly.
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If the LAW says our children MUST attend school then the school CAN NOT organize any trip to places such as theme parks because doing so is breaking the LAW !
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that's just silly. There have been school trips for many, many, years and most parents and teachers feel that children get a lot out of them. You can't please all the people, all the time.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Oh dear, every time I come to this thread I promise myself I'll just let it go, but I can't!
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foxtrotzulu, you and me both!
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The problem was that people tore the ar$e out of this dispensation and, according to reports, teachers have felt unable to rein in the abuse.
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IMHO if a Headteacher isn't confident saying no to requests, I'm not sure they are in the right job
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Representing the school at inter-school athletics is infinitely more educational than attending the warm-up day of the TdF as a spectator
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How? Running 1500m around a track isn't particularly educational. Certainly less educational than all the lessons they missed that day. I've never claimed that going to TdF was educational - just pointed out that it is odd that the school deems it fine for them to miss a days education when it suits them, but not when I ask politely and explain my reasoning.
Going back to point above - the reasons for Headteachers being unable to say no is always give as "lose goodwill of parents", well they've lost the goodwill of this parent now well and truely.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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speed098,
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Ok so who says schools are in a better place to decide what is in the best educational interests of our children ? After all if that was the case home schooling would not be allowed.
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That's clearly bonkers. By your, slightly strange logic, plumbers are not the best people to decide how to fix a plumbing problem because otherwise we would never be allowed to fix the plumbing ourselves.
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If the LAW says our children MUST attend school then the school CAN NOT organize any trip to places such as theme parks because doing so is breaking the LAW ! after all you even admit that the educational value of a day at a theme park is extremely questionable.
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No, even you will appreciate that by 'attend school' they don't necessarily mean just the particular buildings in which the school is housed. If you insist on being pedantic then I suggest you read the Education Act 1996. Here is the relevant excerpt...
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Duty of parents to secure education of children of compulsory school age
The parent of every child of compulsory school age shall cause him to receive efficient
full-time education suitable—
(a) to his age, ability and aptitude, and
(b) to any special educational needs he may have,
either by regular attendance at school or otherwise. |
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So it costs more to get the 1.5k fine mentioned above than the cost of the fine ( if they had any inclination to make it something to encourage attendance they would not have given one week to pay or it doubles.They would not have made the fine applicable to each parent ( in some cases a parent who may not have been aware of the unauthorized absence.
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No, I never said it costs more to get the £1.5k fine than the cost of the fine, although it may well do. What I said was
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| It costs more to issue and collect the fines than the value of the fines received |
Fines plural.
Fines are applicable to each parent because, unless otherwise stated, both parents are responsible for ensuring a child attends school. Here is a quote if that makes it clearer
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| Every adult who is legally responsible for ensuring their child or children attend school will have to pay a separate penalty notice. For example, in cases where two parents are legally responsible for their child’s school attendance, EACH parent will receive a separate penalty notice for each child. |
Would you rather they did 'Eeny Meeny Miny Mo' or let the parents draw lots?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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On the subject of the Tour de France, my daughter's school has decided to close for the day its visiting due to the difficulty some staff might have getting there.
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kieranm, That sounds a bit pathetic. Is it really going to be that hard to get to/from school?
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foxtrotzulu, it does sound pathetic, but from direct experience in France, road closures commence many many hours before the race comes through, traffic beforehand is gridlocked, and reopening again long after the last rider goes through to allow for officials to leave the area unhindered. If many of the teachers live in a certain area, and do not make it due to traffic or closure, there is a risk there may not be enough cover in school.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I would say closure for an 8 hour stretch is highly likely.
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How? Running 1500m around a track isn't particularly educational
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Well, rightly or wrongly the most expensive schools in the land tend to put a lot of stress on participation in sport and especially on representing the school, both in regular school hours and outside (e.g. weekend fixtures). Indeed, one of the gripes of some parents of children in state schools is that there isn't enough sport. As I said earlier, you can't please all the people, all the time.
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