 Poster: A snowHead
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sarah, in the short term lying might seem to be the easiest all round. And it would also be the way to enable the Secretary of State to claim that his new rules are working brilliantly.
The cost and political fallout of taking the parents of kids with good behaviour and attendance to court would, on the other hand, make him think twice. Petitions are a total waste of time.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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sarah, Agreed!
While I understand pam w, comments - I don't agree that this particular lie will mean my kids are throwing sickies in years to come as I have explained the situation to them and also like to think I have brung them up proper like.
There may of course be a correlation between this and them throwing a sickie 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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pam W - I completely agree - lying is not setting the best example!
Years ago when my kids were younger (my youngest is now 1 I would always be truthfull regarding their absence. And also for the first couple of years at secondary school. Once schools became stricter regarding their policies it was just easy for me to phone up the absence line (recorded message) on a monday morning and say they had flu and would be off all week - easy - job done - the joy of your child attending a very large school. But since my son has been in 6th form he has informed his tutors of his absence - they were not particulary happy ( he has just had a week off before half term) but it was not a problem - he knows he has to catch up - and he will.
I guess my point is - older children 'understand' why telling a fib is the easiest option - I appreciate this would not be the case of children at primary school. But ... if my kids were in primary school now - I would not hesitate to take them out of school for one minute!
Last month - at short notice - a friend decided to join us on holiday in Florida - she has 2 kids aged 5 & 8. She had to take them out of scool for a total of 8 days - 4 days before half term, 4 days after half term. She was informed she could face a fine of £60 per child per day - they joined us on holiday - had fabulous time - and to date - nothing more has been said - but watch this space!
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£60 per child per day.
I have also heard of £60 per child per parent (but for the whole absence).
I am amazed how many different fine options there appear to be.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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My understanding is fine is £60 per child for each parent, regardless of length of absence.
So for us it could potentially be £60 for 3 kids, £180 then for both parents = £360
The per parent rule is going to be interesting - I would imagine this is crying out for challenge!
Reading the Northants website, it seems to indicate that fines would only be applied for greater than 10 days missed. Doesn't say that though!
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Im in the "its not OK to lie" camp. I understand it would be beneficial to the school - but Id seriously question a head teacher who suggested it was better to lie. As parents, you may think you are the one doing the lying, but your children will probably have to "keep up the act" while at school eg I would think it was quite normal for a teacher to ask a child after a weeks absence if they were feeling better etc and you'll probably tell the kids "dont mention the skiing/Disney Trip" etc etc
A friend took her son out of school for ONE day in September to attend a family wedding. She got a phonecall from the school to say they would be fined £60 but nothing has come of it so far.
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| Quote: |
The per parent rule is going to be interesting - I would imagine this is crying out for challenge!
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there arent that many real "single parent families" - there are normally two parents but the parents have separated/divorced. I would assume that each parent who was involved in the absence would be fined - so if Mum and Dad took the kids on holiday then they are both as guilty as each other. If only Mum took the kids on hols as Dad is now shacked up with a new family, then only Mum has been responsible for taking the child out of school?
As far as I know there isnt a law for discrimination against couples?
Its all a stupid bl00dy mess though!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Megamum, you have decided to keep your daughter in school as it is beneficial to her? Its got nothing to do with the new system? From my understanding of the regs. if your child has ok absence in general then it wont make any difference to you other than you now have an "unauthorised absence" rather than an "authorised" one - which really is no big deal as it just ends up as a statistic.
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Of course... the best solution would be this:
There are no longer any such thing as "school holidays". Schools run along the same lines as business: Everyone is entitled to 4 weeks holiday per year. The teachers can take this whenever they wish, and so can the kids. If the kid is on holiday, then they have to catch up when they return (just like anyone else does when they go on holiday). When the teacher is on holiday, then they leave instructions with people on "cover" to take the lessons that occur while they aren't around (once again... just like anyone else does).
The outcome would be:
- no more "school holiday premium on holiday prices"
- no more arguments about taking kids out of school
- an increase in the number of teaching "contact" days per year
- an increase in attainment in exams (due to the above additional teaching that is going on).
Any teacher that whinges about the reduction in their "holiday", receives the balance in terms of cheaper holidays when they DO decide to go.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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In my defence... I'm self-employed... so normal holiday entitlement is 0 
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jamescollings, employment law is forever changing - its difficult for anyone to keep up IMO
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You know it makes sense.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| Although I think the sheer infelexibility of the new system is worse than putting the kids in prison. |
I am completely with you that the system is daft but let's keep a sense of proportion.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I'm very interested in all your opinions- we're taking my 5 year old out for a week's skiing at the end of January, when it's very quiet. We booked before the new regulation, but it still will not make that much of a difference- the fine cost whether £60/day or £60/period or £60/parent still does not compare to the saving made by booking out of half term / holiday. We will ensure that he does homework and extra reading.
But... here's where it gets tricky.... we're taking a friend's boy along as well as it's better with 2 to learn/ play together and they can't go as a family yet. Will we get their fines? <grin>
Womble
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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womble,  interesting - Id put my money on his parents getting the fines, if any were issued.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Boris wrote: |
pam w, lets be clear - we choose to book in the Christmas holidays as it seemed the best option to have a ski trip WITHOUT taking them out of school for a week. We did however think we would be able to take them out for ONE day, Friday 20th December, to travel as past experience would suggest they are going to be doing sweet FA on this day. Plus they finish at 2pm! When the initial request was refused, and we found out about the new rules, we wrote clearing stating our views - was still refused.
No I don't think it is ok to teach the kids to tell lies - I've made it quite clear that this is not the sort of behaviour that I condone, but it is what it is this time. Besides I'll tell the lies.
While you are correct on an idealistic point of view - in reality us "middle class" losers are worried that we may get fined and there may be other consequences - do you realise a high unauthorised absence school may cause house prices to fall! |
In this fact pattern it seems pretty clear to me what the school now expects - that the kids will not be in on the pointless last day of term to watch DVDs and exchange presents. They just can't authorise it but neither will they, all other facts being neutral seek to be punitive about it. The ball's in your court as to whether you choose that the kids are officially "sick" on that day or unauthorised (with the very very slim chance that the school will go in all heavy on you. I wouldn't say it's even a moral issue particularly
I suspect the real odds of schools recovering "fines" from anyone are pretty slim, they're hardly set up like e.g. private parking shysters whose raison d'etre is to punt excessive demands out to to motorists and then threaten court action in the knowledge that a certain % of the public will just pay out of ignorance or fear.
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Perhaps we should only take our kids out of school to ski on the days when teachers decide its fine to deprive them a day of education when striking!! Or maybe we should fine each teacher £60.Talk about hypocrisy makes me mad 
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While I agree with the sentiment - teachers aren't responsible for this new rule, nor do they get a say in enforcing (or otherwise). As such I'm not mentioning this in any conversations I have with the school
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| Quote: |
teachers aren't responsible for this new rule
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and Mr Gove has an even more baleful effect on them. My daughter is starting teaching again in January - after a short child-related break of less than two terms - and the exam arrangements and much else has changed yet again - it's bewildering for all concerned.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Megamum, is that a firm decision then?
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| pam w wrote: |
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Maybe its simply that parents value their children's education rather more highly nowadays ?
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I am not being critical of parents who decide to take holidays during school holiday time - that's obviously absolutely fine and sensible..... |
It's really not...... but then, what would I know, all I have to do is explain to parents the reason why their kids have underperformed is because they werent actually at school in the first place... oh, and then sort out the mess and get the kids back up to speed, of course.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| jamescollings wrote: |
Of course... the best solution would be this:
There are no longer any such thing as "school holidays". Schools run along the same lines as business: Everyone is entitled to 4 weeks holiday per year. The teachers can take this whenever they wish, and so can the kids. If the kid is on holiday, then they have to catch up when they return (just like anyone else does when they go on holiday). When the teacher is on holiday, then they leave instructions with people on "cover" to take the lessons that occur while they aren't around (once again... just like anyone else does).
The outcome would be:
- no more "school holiday premium on holiday prices"
- no more arguments about taking kids out of school
- an increase in the number of teaching "contact" days per year
- an increase in attainment in exams (due to the above additional teaching that is going on).
Any teacher that whinges about the reduction in their "holiday", receives the balance in terms of cheaper holidays when they DO decide to go. |
I assume we'll all be getting 35% pay increases to compensate for the increased workload ? Plus another healthy whack on top of that to compensate for the loss of quality of life and work-life balance ?
Clearly written by someone who does not understand the job or what it entails. I do 60hour weeks during term time and it is very rare I have a whole day without work at the weekend. Keep that up for a couple of years using your idea above and they'll soon reduce the pension bill - we'll all be dead. And before you think I'm being overly-alarmist, it's long been established that the avaerage life-expectancy from retirement of a teacher who works full-time up to the age of 65 is 3-4years - compared that to 20+ for most other professions. This is the primary reason why most teachers do whatever they can to retire early - they want to live long enough to collect their pension ! Gove and his mates want us to work until 68 ! Can you imagine a bunch of 70-year olds trying to control hyperactive teenagers ? It's really just not going to work is it... ..and Joe Public wonder's why the profession as a whole is pissed...
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Mon 11-11-13 22:04; edited 2 times in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Deep breath..... and put on my tin hat.....
I know this is going to sound rather moralising, but to me the situation is pretty straightforward. It is wrong to lie to your children's school. It is wrong for the children to take a sickie. It is wrong to teach them that taking a sickie is, under any circumstances, remotely acceptable.
Holidays may be more expensive during the school holidays. It's always been like that and we all knew it even before we had children. Skiing holidays are fun, but they are not essential. No holiday is essential. Bearing in mind the cost of even a cheap skiing holiday you would probably classify them as a luxury. Attendance at school has been compulsory for a very long time, all the DfE are doing is enforcing an existing rule. Taking children out of school for a week is disruptive for the child's education, the rest of the class, and the teacher.
Having said that I understand that some parents will still decide that they need to skip some school for skiing. This may be, like Boris, for reasons that are pretty much unavoidable and his standpoint is completely understandable. Taking children out of school or not is, at the end of the day, a personal decision but what I struggle to understand is the idea that there is nothing wrong with it and particularly that the fault lies with the DfE for enforcing an existing rule. If you believe taking your child out of school just to save money on a skiing holiday is OK then at least have the guts to admit it and don't try and shift the blame onto those enforcing the rules.
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My parents were teachers so I know just how hard they worked, but your hours, weekend work and pension situation is not unique
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You know it makes sense.
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foxtrotzulu, absolutely correct.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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foxtrotzulu, that's the first time I've read one of your posts and agreed with every word.
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Poster: A snowHead
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foxtrotzulu - well said
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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foxtrotzulu, they are not enforcing an existing rule - they've changed the rules
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Boris wrote: |
| My parents were teachers so I know just how hard they worked, but your hours, weekend work and pension situation is not unique |
True - but what is unique relative to the few other professions who have this degree of workload is the large number of people who think we get it easy. My challenge to them when they suggest such is always the same - if it's such a good number, why dont you do it too then ? Amazing how quickly they change their tune.... lol
Boris, there has always been a legal requirement to send your child to school. That is why it is known as compulsory schooling - it is compulsory, they must go and you must send them. The only change is that now they can fine you if you dont.
And I must now go, as I have another 2 hours work to do tonight, in addition to the two after-hours meetings I had (compulsory attendance of course) and the 1 1/2 hours of work I've already done....
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Mon 11-11-13 22:16; edited 1 time in total
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austin7, I have never considered teachers get it easy, as I saw it close up
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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laundryman, going back to the OP
| Quote: |
Term-time holiday
The Education (Pupil Registration) (England) Regulations 2006 currently allow headteachers to grant leave of absence for the purpose of a family holiday during term time in “special circumstances” of up to ten school days leave per year. Headteachers can also grant extended leave for more than ten school days in exceptional circumstances.
Amendments to the 2006 regulations remove references to family holiday and extended leave as well as the statutory threshold of ten school days. The amendments make clear that headteachers may not grant any leave of absence during term time unless there are exceptional circumstances. Headteachers should determine the number of school days a child can be away from school if the leave is granted.
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| Quote: |
| True - but what is unique relative to the few other professions who have this degree of workload is the large number of people who think we get it easy. My challenge to them when they suggest such is always the same - if it's such a good number, why dont you do it too then ? Amazing how quickly they change their tune.... lol |
You can easily turn that around by asking if some teachers feel they are so hard done by, why don't they try their hand at something else. It's a pretty silly rhetorical question either way.
Anyone, it's good to see teachers are supporting Mr Gove on this one. I thought he was meant to be the source of all evil.
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At least in the distant past, I thought parents had the right to withdraw their children from school for up to 10 days per year for a family holiday
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yes, that was my understanding. If your father's fortnight's annual leave was during term time (mothers were irrelevant....) you had a right to miss school. My headmistress used to cluck about it, but my father invariably took his holidays in June or early July. He worked for the AA and his argument was that the summer was the busiest time for the AA and it was not possible for the four of them, who constituted the senior team in the Cardiff office, all to take their two weeks in school holidays. So he selflessly offered to take his in June/July, much to my glee. His strong dislike of holiday crowds rubbed off on me - we never went to the beach on Bank Holidays though he could sometimes be persuaded to take a picnic to the Brecon Beacons or Black Mountains.
Boris is right - the rules have changed.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The only change is that now they can fine you if you dont.
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Incorrect - see above and opening post
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FAQ
Daughter has some important one week only lessons on a Friday and is also on accelarated courses for early exams and has a lesson on that day - no contest I'm afraid 
I also reasoned that we will need to do so in the next few years anyway as her GCSE's approach so we may as well get used to it now. Had they both still be at primary it would still have been a no brainer and we would have travelled on the Friday as usual.