Crystal cancel ski guiding in Italy

A snowHead

Imagine this was England for a moment. A group of hikers are being led by the employee of an outdoor activities company. The fog comes down and one of the party wanders off, gets lost and dies of exposure. I could easily imagine where the courts think liability lies. That is why you need to be qualified to do this in the England (actally at the moment the law only requires that leaders of parties with anyone under 18 in it be qualified, but in a damages case it will be pretty straightforward). Why should we expect the law to be less stringent in another country than our own?

A snowHead

Well it is not a service that people are willing to pay for so very doubtful that it is being done for economic reasons. I know plenty of level 2s that I would not be comfortable leading a group off the mountain in a white-out whereas a level 4 seems to have an inbuilt gps so just maybe on the continent they have higher safety standards just like in the UK there are lots of health and safety rules that would seem crazy to an outsider.

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If it's a "social" event than people who want to ski in a group should choose a "leader" among themselves. These days skiers are hardly clueless about resorts they are heading to and I am sure many can read a map. If they cannot do so but want to have their hands held by an outsider who would be charged with this responsibility then it's a service that they have to pay for. I doubt that this law is new in Italy, probably just wasn't enforced but existed all the same.

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@johnE, I can see where you are coming from, but this is skiing on a marked piste. There is the piste patrol for any emergencies. Everyone should be competent on red runs. No mountain activity is without risk, but the risk is fairly limited here. I don't even think they are being 'guided' as such, more just shown around and meeting fellow holidaymakers who they may befriend and become ski buddies for the week, or longer.

Until/if the TO's start charging for this service we can't tell where or not holidaymakers are willing to pay for it. But I could see single parents whose kids are in ski school and the like being willing to shell out a few euro to meet other like minded folk.

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@never summer, +1

After all it is free

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Would it work if on the transfer bus or at the reception meeting guests invited the reps to ski with them?

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I also heard about this a while ago and having now read through these posts it seems IMO bad news for the tour companies although I do not think they will loose that much business. Most people still look for the best price deal. In reality I do not think they took any business away from the ski schools. In fact I think they brought work to them. Very short sighted of the local ski schools. Seems to me Italy is copying what is going on in France.

From what I read on another website, this all began in September. 'All tour operators operating in the Italian Piemonte region, just over the French border, were contacted by the local Ski School Association advising them that they were in breach of Italian regulations regarding social skiing services on the mountain. As a result of this, the biggest operator Crystal and it is understood other UK operators have taken the decision to remove social skiing from all resorts in Italy for this winter.'

I also do not believe that the SCGB should continue with their programme. I see very little difference between what they offer and what a tour operator offers. In fact when you add the 'Off Piste' that the SCGB do without qualified Instructors, IMO I would think they are far more likely to have legal problems if there were an accident. I have friends who still lead for them and I know some have withdrawn for this season at least.

It will be interesting to see if this spreads to other countries. And to think the ESF in France started all this off. Very sad. Sad

A snowHead

It will be interesting to see if this spreads to other countries. And to think the ESF in France started all this off. Very sad. Sad

Ah Cmon @snowcrazy, you can't be serious blaming esf for an Italian problem!?

A snowHead

I can't imagine it was the ESF who "started it off" either. Like France, Italy has long had various regulations about who can do what but, like lots of other branches of Italian governance, enforcement is capricious. Wayne from Folgarida was posting interesting reports about harassment of instructors travelling with clubs from outside Italy years ago.

There are probably some people who think the ESF have stirred up all the trouble in the Middle East. rolling eyes

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@peanuthead, and @pam w, I agree there has been problems in this particular part of Italy before. It is not far from me and I also ski over there sometimes. They introduced stricter rules for off piste skiing a while ago.

However up till now they have more or less left Tour Companies alone as these companies provide them with business. I just find it rather interesting that it is only now that the Ski Schools in this region have made a stand with the tour companies after the trouble in France (just over the border) which was caused by the ESF (they were the ones that complained) kicked this all off. It is to big a coincidence to ignore.

I wonder if the tour companies will challenge this in Italy as well or wait untill after the French senior court appeal ruling is published. I think SCGB will be next on the radar here as well. It could quickly become very difficult for their leaders if they are seen taking people around in uniform. As with the French case only time will tell.

I should add that I think the whole problem is crazy. I do not think the ski schools loose any business from what the tour company hosts are doing and I DO NOT think the ski schools will gain anything by taking this action. IMO.

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@tarrantd, I think you will find you said level 4s not me. I do ski with all levels from beginners with a few weeks experience, holiday skiers, mountain locals, regular skiers to trainers/ex-racers. I was asked what level I thought was suitable to show a group around the mountain and IME/O my answer was instructor level 2.5. To rationalise that I said I thought it should be someone confident and competent to lead a group off the mountain when the weather closes in (+above tree line) so I'm not saying someone has to be a particularly good skier just somone with a basic level of skiing competence and qualifications. Of course I'm safer with a level 4 who has a lot more ability, training and experience. From a local perspective I can see though why they think you should be a good, competent, trained and qualified skier to lead a group. It is a completely different experience. Those are the rules decided by skiing professionals and from a legal, insurance, cost perspective the TOs are correct to follow the rules.

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There are a great many activities which are now much more regulated and controlled than used to be the case. I should add that I don't think that is necessarily a good thing - or always bad thing. It depends. The UK has a very unregulated scene in recreational sailing - well,unregulated as far as law is concerned. But commercial maritime activity (e.g. chartering your boat out, or taking people for pleasure trips, or running sailing courses for the public) is certainly regulated. The standard of equipment and maintenance for charter boats is very high (much higher than most of us manage for our own private boats) and the level of qualification required is pretty high too.

Individuals do not need any qualifications - you can buy a damn great power boat and zoom out to sea with no knowledge at all or you can take people out on your boat and teach them to sail. But the Royal Yachting Association (RYA) is the body which sets standards for qualifications and does courses - a bit like BASI, I suppose, but far bigger. They do a terrific job and the standard of "amateur" sailors in the UK is very high. If you are a sailing club you can put on courses for members which are manned mostly by youngsters with just a basic "Dinghy Instructor" qualification, rather equivalent to BASI 1 I guess. But a more senior instructor has to supervise the whole thing and their standards, and the standards of the club generally are pretty strictly inspected by the RYA. This means that anybody wanting to do a sailing course, or for their kids to learn to sail, looks for a certified RYA training establishment because they can be pretty sure of the quality and safety. But nobody is being paid - that would change the whole basis.

There can still be accidents - there was a horrible one at our club when a young girl lost an eye. Kids were learning how to capsize and recover on a very safe Mill Pond, just a few feet deep, but one was too enthusiastic and capsized too close to her, catching her eye with the top of his mast. The Senior Instructor in charge, fortunately for him, was having a "refresher assessment" by a top RYA Examiner so when there was talk of legal action (the mother was very keen to sue) it was good for him to know that he would have a very good expert witness to confirm that the session was well planned and run.

Years ago, none of these qualifications existed. The Swallow and the Amazon didn't have any buoyancy bags and the kids never wore buoyancy aids or went on any RYA sailing course. "Better drowned than duffers, if not duffers won't drown".

But the kids drowned in Lyme Bay with an incompetent instructor who took them kayaking in conditions which would have been tough for experts paid the price for an unregulated scene and the law does now cover that sort of activity.

People are killed and injured on the piste in collisions, falls or shooting off and hitting a tree, every year (probably more than off piste, as people often point out). I wouldn't want to have been an enthusiastic amateur skier working for one of the tour companies and in charge of their group - however little liability the leader could be said to have had for their deaths.

None of that means that the Alpine areas which have cracked down on "ski guiding" have gone about it in a sensible way, of course. But it is disingenuous to argue that traditional "ski guiding" by a keen youngster who first set foot in the resort a week before the guests poses no problems. I skied with one such in Meribel in mid-December, years ago. He was a good skier and top bloke but he was finding his way round the pistes and when the visibility disappeared and the snow was falling he had very little more idea than I did about where to go. Though when I skied over a small "cliff" because I couldn't see a thing, did a head over heels into deep snow and lost a ski he was calm, knew how to organise a search and got me safely back up onto the piste.

It's not straightforward.

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@snowbunny, So, if there is a potential liability for a person guiding a group of his friends skiing privately the liability will be much worse if the person guiding them will be doing it as part of his job but illegally. It's certainly not fair to expect an underpaid chalet rep to take this risk. To book an instructor for a day to show a group around the slopes is a very reasonable solution and eliminates grey areas should something happen - this is one of the reasons for regulation. Skiing is a regulated industry and it's countries that have a say how they want it regulated. Skiing has grown in popularity and with more people on slopes there is little surprise that countries want to regulate and enforce their laws. It's like driving when people in the past could get their licenses simply by applying for them but once the number of cars increased they had to pass the test first.

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Why is it that in highly litigious countries such as the USA and Canada, resorts are able to provide free 'piste guiding' services to allcomers? They are typically staffed by unqualified (at least on a recognised international basis) volunteers who are provided with a free season pass in exchange for 1 day a week guiding.

In light of this, why is it so hard for operators (be they accommodation or resort operators) in Europe to do the same?

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@Dave of the Marmottes, I think some of the other countries could teach the ESF a thing or two. Not too many British-run schools anywhere else, are there?

[quote="Dave of the Marmottes"]

Nor the equally reactionary francophiles who spout nonsense such as how they would never take lessons from a Brit because the French are much better at racing or that the French are entitled to protect their system no matter what EU law says.
quote]

Strange - I've never seen anyone use those arguments

You know it makes sense.

Hmm let's see

From the ESF Megeve thread

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Well there you go. Personally use Brit and local ski instructors and absolutely believe that the French, Italians and everyone else should comply with the EU rules.

A snowHead

A snowHead

@dode, It's not me that specifies a professional instructor or guide - it is the Italian law. I was asked what standard I thought someone should be to lead a group and I think they should be a competent skier with also appropriate training in leading group. A simple disclaimer will not work if the activity is illegal.

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I thought the reason why lift pass prices were so high in the US was because of litigation/insurance costs so not sure the US system is consumer friendly. They can't do it in Europe because it is illegal.

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I would never do it for any remuneration or deemed remuneration unless it complied with the law. As already explained if someone is an external leader the group dynamics change as well as the legal and insurance situation changes. I'm not the one setting the law.

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@flicky, I suppose it's like my sailing analogy. I can legally take you out for a day trip on my boat without any safety gear at all, and with dodgy rigging. But if you are chartering my boat, for a fee, the law prescribes the standards required. And on our "mates day out" if the mast falls down and kills or injures you you or your surviving relatives might well be encouraged by some ambulance-chasing lawyer to sue me for negligence.

I will, of course, have third-party insurance - but if the boat was clearly in an unsafe condition they will probably argue the toss too.

We all do things all the time which could turn out to be dodgy and would be a lot dodgier in the situation where somebody was being paid to provide expertise/guidance.

Personally, in a white out on unfamiliar territory I would prefer to be with a local who knew the place backwards than a highly qualified ski instructor from elsewhere.

One TO ski leader I encountered - a good skier - lent one of his skis to a punter who had broken one, skiing down on one ski carrying the broken one. Imagine the arguments if the recipient had a fall and sustained an injury because of the hastily-adjusted binding not releasing......

I like the idea of the North American "friends" who show people around, who are presumably insured by the resort. But given the price of US lift passes and the vast cost of ski lessons bunging €15 into the pot for a morning with an ESF instructor sounds quite good value. I dislike the sound of the US model where people like instructors see very little of the monies paid by punters. I've also heard that it's the local owners of ski schools who make the big money in the Austrian resorts. At least there's a certain amount of "trickle down" in the French system. wink

Groups of mates are often irresponsible, IME. It's a frequent cause of injury with more experienced skiers taking beginners or early intermediates down things too difficult for them. Or, in the case of one group of mates I know, ending up in the wrong valley after the lift shut and having to take very expensive taxis. Laughing

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"...From what I read on another website, this all began in September. 'All tour operators operating in the Italian Piemonte region, just over the French border, were contacted by the local Ski School Association advising them that they were in breach of Italian regulations regarding social skiing services on the mountain...."

Does anybody actually know what these 'local' laws are? (and if they are actual laws, not something dreamed up by the ski schools)....

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@albob, You are right to question this very basic point. In France we know it's the Law because a case is being fought on it. It would seem sensible to assume that those at the sharp end, faced with the Italian situation, have made due enquiries before making the business decision to quit hosting.
But let's assume the French law is upheld. Most of us think it's insisting on a sledgehammer to crack a nut and that the law is unreasonable in the standards demanded.
So how can one change a Law, from the outside ?? Could the British get all their MEPs to look into it and challenge it if they agreed it was not "reasonable" ? Reasonableness is a commonly used test, eg in the force used to deter a burglar, or to restrain a convict in police custody, purely by way of example. Our commonly agreed dissatisfaction with these rulings seems an ideal justification for the existence of the European Parliament----to get a sensible law which sets an appropriate level of ability for someone to lead people(in all conditions) on marked and patrolled ski runs.
It would be sensible to wait until the decision in January but , after that, if we have to , How could we start such a snowball rolling ??

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Crystal cancel ski guiding in Italy

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