 Poster: A snowHead
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| Hells Bells wrote: |
Dav, Snowsports Scotland already do a Ski Leader course, which I guess is aimed primarily at teachers taking school pupils around the mountain. Is it very different to be doing this for adults?
http://www.snowsportscotland.org/become-a-leader |
Yep, something like that is exactly what I'm talking about as a standardised quali across the industry. Whether the foreign resorts will align with something like that is the question, I guess.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Dav, I did and still do wonder if the ESF has a surplus of 'stagieres'(sp?) sitting around, cluttering up the office, and surly sucking on a Gitanes, that they would much rather be earning a Euro or 10 shepherding a flock of chubby brits around the pistes.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Masque, its a fair comment and I myself initially thought the ESF were bringing this action when in actual fact I guess they could be better described as expert witnesses.
Having conducted ski hosting days myself on countless occasionsf I know that the TO ski hosting days are a lot more than just "guiding". They really are a social experience, a chance for small groups of guests to meet other like-minded guests, even a chance for single skiers who are of a different ability level to the rest of their companions to ski with people more of like minded abilities. Often those in groups are staying in the same hotels as the people they'll ski with so it gets guests mingling with other guests. Importantly also it was a chance for customers to get to know the reps; I met more than a few great people doing it who I subsequently went out for social beers with later in the week.
So if that were to get outsourced to ESF or anyone else, I think it's a definite loss to TOs. The guiding would be conducted by more qualified staff, but I can only see that an element of the social side would be lost.
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Dav, What you describe is the ideal. A ski host has to assume some responsibility for their charges and the resort has to see a benefit in a skilled rep who is not just a part of the retail organisation but also introducing the punter to the resort itself. Mind, the opportunities to abuse that are rife so some level of monitoring would be needed.
We are all on the hill to have fun first, with like minded people. Beyond that there are the drinkers, the party people, the wannabes, the serious skiers and the people who are just there for a change of scenery . . . bringing those people together is a skill that the TO should have responsibility in finding people to fill that roll.
We need the people escorting our family around the snowy fleshpots to have a measured ability but also the 'people skills' to complement that . . . so that's me screwed 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I will throw my oar into this - probably providing nothing but more divisions and debate.
So the company i work for as a rep actively encourage me to ski with the clients. The kids (we take school groups out) are all looked after by instructors whenever they are on snow, so i am occassionally left either to my own devices - fine by me - or, especially with groups that have never been to the resort before, to ski with teachers. Should i not be doing this? Is this ski "guiding"? I would definitely pick out a run or two, or avoid a certain lift or run if i knew it to have crap snow or be too busy. I am a pretty good skier, but not an instructor, guide etc. I would never take the teachers off piste - although if i'm on my own i would occassionally go myself or with other reps.
What sort of position does this leave me in? Is my company in the wrong by encouraging me to ski with the clients - in this case a couple of teachers - or should i leave them to it, in a resort they dont always know?
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dorsetboy, no one, on any account, must ever be allowed to use any discretion. There will always be all-wise bureaucrats, who can foresee every circumstance, who must be trusted to devise appropriate limitations and protocols, enforced by law. For the greater good, of course. 
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| Quote: |
Hells Bells wrote:
Dav, Snowsports Scotland already do a Ski Leader course, which I guess is aimed primarily at teachers taking school pupils around the mountain. Is it very different to be doing this for adults?
http://www.snowsportscotland.org/become-a-leader
But that is not recognised outside of Scotland.
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Yes, that was mentioned somewhere, however, it appears to be the only 'suitable' course that specifically excludes instruction, and could form the basis of a more widely accepted standard.
BTW, what do the Swedes, Dutch, Danes etc do? I know gravystuffing used to work in La Plagne Les Coches , and I'm sure it was for a Scandinavian company. I thought he was also doing the equivalent of ski hosting. I don't see any prosecutions pending.
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Hells Bells, when I worked in Les Arcs a couple of years ago there was a Dutch rep for Sunweb Vakanties (Dutch company, obviously!!) and she used to ski host for guests.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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laundryman,
Exactly - everyone knows that common sense says its better to show them around rather than let them be late for picking up the kids from ski school or getting lost. But this case and the debate surrounding that doesn't seem to utilise common sense. Mind you, i am in Italy at the moment, and they seem MUCH more chilled out than their neighbours. Shouldnt be surprised!
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| Quote: |
Mind you, i am in Italy at the moment, and they seem MUCH more chilled out than their neighbours. Shouldnt be surprised!
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italian chill can turn into italian paranoia, in a twinkling of an eye. Remember those scientists who were imprisoned for not predicting an earthquake? Attenzione.
What's happened to them, by the way?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And a whole lot of foreign "instructors" were rounded up by the authorities not long ago - as recounted by wayne.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
Dav, I did and still do wonder if the ESF has a surplus of 'stagieres'(sp?) sitting around, cluttering up the office, and surly sucking on a Gitanes, that they would much rather be earning a Euro or 10 shepherding a flock of chubby brits around the pistes.
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Not a chance. They would rather sit on their ar$e than earn anything less than 50€/hr.
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stevomcd, I'd jump like a bunny for 25
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You know it makes sense.
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They would rather sit on their ar$e than earn anything less than 50€/hr.
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if that's really true, how come ESF schools can offer private lessons for €45 an hour, or less? Far less than their British competitors
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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pam w,
I think the British run schools have to end the mayor a bigger bung
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Poster: A snowHead
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| musher wrote: |
| I think the British run schools have to end the mayor a bigger bung |
OK, this time try it in English . . .
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Hells Bells wrote: |
Dav, Snowsports Scotland already do a Ski Leader course, which I guess is aimed primarily at teachers taking school pupils around the mountain. Is it very different to be doing this for adults?
http://www.snowsportscotland.org/become-a-leader |
But that is not recognised outside of Scotland.[/quote]
It is possible for a Ski Leader to lead outside of Scotland, as long as they are not doing it for reward. A teacher or youth group leader is not being paid directly to lead the kids, where as a ski host is being paid to lead their clients.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Masque wrote: |
| stevomcd, I'd jump like a bunny for 25 |
What's your rate for jumping like a kangaroo?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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So now that we are at hypothetical level. How would it be if the qualification were handled at resort level ? To be a ski rep in Courchevel you would have to prove that you could ski (test or provide satisfactory qualification), do the same stuff as a ski leader does (know safety drills, first aid cert etc), know the resort and local regulations (where the pisteurs are, when the lifts close) and anything else you can think off. After passing an approved course they get a nice letter from the appropriate local authority with a licence for 1 year that entitles the holder to act as an on piste ski host, not giving instruction.
Failure to abide by the rules would result in revocation of the licence and loss off kickbacks from restauranteurs.
It might also settle the question of responsibility. The rep could declare "You are a danger to life and limb, your personal habits are disgusting, your language is vile and you ski like the Fitzwilliam child of muffin the mule and Andy Pandy.(1) Therefore I am crossing your name off the list of people in this tour group".
Let the Mairie approve the training and assessment, if they choose ESF to test people, so be it. Okay, you might have to do that weird pelvic thrust thing halfway round your 'heels together like Dorothy' turn, but hey!
1. Source Snowheads, ski club(2) 2 Jan 2013, Masque
2. Source Ski Club of Great Britain 2004,
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Wed 23-01-13 15:48; edited 1 time in total
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thirty06, Oi!
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| the Βastard child of muffin the mule and Andy Pandy |
©masque . . . careful mush or you'll get a 'Goldsmith' ... ya 'earing me?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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thirty06, I think it would make more sense to make it a national, or international qualification. Much of the resort specific stuff can be included in procedural training, rather than being resort specific. e.g. as a leader/host/guide you are responsible for making sure you know where the pisteurs are stationed, you must make sure you know the local regulations for the resort you are in. There's no harm in passing that responsibility onto the individual rather than requiring it as specific content. It could certainly be run in resort, but not limited only to that resort.
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feef.
That's the alternative. Trouble is you'd need to set the whole thing up and you might get the awkward squad saying that their area is a special case and the licence wouldn't cover them. We've already got intenational qualifications for instructors and look how far that gets you (i.e not France). The point of passing the resposibility onto the local authroity or company is that if they give the OK, that's it, they can't turn round and decide that a qualification or licence from another country, resort or valley suddenly makes you an illegal operator. The rep is proably going to work one resort per season, so
Masque: attribution now given to satisfy all sensitive souls who might start a lawsuit. Goldsmith 'earing... didn't they do Radar Love ?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Fie upon thee, oscenity filter.
Shall we really talk of William the FitzWilliam ?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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shame len silver ( silver ski ) is not still about ,he had it sorted years back !
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Irrespective of the rights/wrongs of a qualification for hosts ESF cannot and should not be responsible for regulating any qualification. They are a cooperative of self employed workers (who enjoy some significant tax breaks) who are solely engaged in ski instruction. They are collectively a business and not a regulatory authority. Additionally, they do not do first aid - that is the responsibility of the pisteurs and unless things have changed very recently they do not have to have completed a first aid course (nor the equivalent of a CRB).
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You know it makes sense.
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I would never recommend ESF to anyone after a nervous female beginner in our party was kicked out of a beginner group on her first day in L2A for not being good enough, and left to make her own way back down the mountain (in tears). When this was pointed out to the manager of the school they weren't exactly apologetic.
This just smacks of more protectionism/chauvinism from ESF.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Naive of me I know, so I hope I soon stop being amazed at the process by which reason and logic so often fails in the face of the conjunction of some people's ignorance and paranoia, some people's falling over themselves to be well-meaning, and some people's thinly veiled partisanism or prejudice! Glad I'm not a politician - I wouldn't be capable of the patient and interminable persuasion, misdirection and outright fibbing necessary to achieve anything correct or useful. 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Our crystal rep told us this is the last week they're offering "social skiing"
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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sixman
Having skied with Silver Ski, I wonder how you consider what they did to be different from the sotuation that has led to this impasse with the French authorities ?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| thirty06 wrote: |
sixman
Having skied with Silver Ski, I wonder how you consider what they did to be different from the sotuation that has led to this impasse with the French authorities ? |
AFAIK Len won a court case. After that, all participants signed a 'social skiing' register in the morning. Meant they could go anywhere they wanted, including off-piste.
Doesn't apply anymore, though - if you go on Silver Ski's website it says they've scrapped hosting.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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finestgreen, I have also had it confirmed yesterday that Crystal Ski Company will no longer be providing 'Social Ski leading' in any of their French resorts until further notice. Not even without their jackets on. I wonder how many other companies will do the same?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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snowcrazy, sounds like here's been a hint on the Court decision leaked then.
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| snowcrazy wrote: |
| finestgreen, I have also had it confirmed yesterday that Crystal Ski Company will no longer be providing 'Social Ski leading' in any of their French resorts until further notice. Not even without their jackets on. |
Can't see anything on their website that confirms this, although I did come across this
"To join in with social skiing, please speak to your Crystal Rep on arrival in-resort. Social skiing is first-come first-served and groups are limited to 3-12 customers per rep to keep things really lively and fun.
In North American resorts, a similar 'Mountain Host' service is provided by the local ski school."
Perhaps that is the way they will be forced to go in France? Presumably will add to the holiday cost in future?
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| Masque wrote: |
| snowcrazy, sounds like here's been a hint on the Court decision leaked then. |
or maybe just back bottom covering? I think we all have a feel which way it will go.
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Tony Ellwood, In the States most 'hosting' is done by retired locals in exchange for a free season lift pass.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Masque wrote: |
| Tony Ellwood, In the States most 'hosting' is done by retired locals in exchange for a free season lift pass. |
Yep, in Canada I had a retired fireman showing us around, good man with the stories.
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BTW, what do the Swedes, Dutch, Danes etc do?
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Lots of ski hosting. Skikot, Ski Friends, Nortlander etc all regularly out with groups here.
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FAQ
The speeling mistakes in that post are bad, maybe posting after a 12hr working day was a mistake 
