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A snowHead

[quote="Richard_Sideways"]

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Sorry David but if you are no longer a member why does it matter to you? I dont get it.

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@FFIRMIN, that question is the SH equivalent of the perky American teen who is ok with smoking/drinking/pre-marital sex, going to investigate what that weird noise is in the cellar of a creepy old house...

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@Davina Goldballs, why are you asking me this sh!te? As I told you, I'm not invoked any more. Are you thick or something?

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@Davina Goldballs

[quote="Davina Goldballs"]

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The price IS a bit sniffy though........

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[quote="KenX"]

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@Davina Goldballs

You know it makes sense.

@Gerry Airtken, you've been spinning, bluffing and trolling on this for about 14 years now. Seven of those years were spent as a director of the Ski Club of Great Britain, which gave you full access to any documents you needed to form a more mature and expert outlook on all this ... but it's clear now that you didn't independently investigate any of it. The simple truth is that all you've done is use this channel - and others - to prop up a 'status quo' that serves you and others with lots of expenses-paid skiing. The SCGB used to run far more successfully, on very different principles of altruism and commitment.

It's quite obvious, from the way you gloss over the (deadly) serious issue of SCGB leadership safety, that you're not concerned with the Club's training standards or candidate quality or performance quality. No, there have not been "2 serious incidents in 80+ years" - as you put it. There was the death of Michael Mahaffy in a Verbier avalanche in 1989, and the death of Jean-Philippe Marquette in another Verbier incident in 2007. And a further fatality at some time between the two (the victim has not been identified). That is approximately one fatality per decade ... as far as public or semi-public information is known.

You say that the leader was "exonerated" in each Verbier case. Where are the records supporting that claim? What are you citing? The Swiss prosecutor persisted for years with the second case - why?

The 3rd death - in France - for which the Club has documentary evidence, cannot have been secret to you. All you needed to do was ask. Numerous incidents involving serious injuries can also arguably be attributed to skiers being led down slopes which were unsuitable for their abilities. There have been cases of SCGB leaders apprehended on the French slopes by the authorities for not holding recognised qualifications. And the British ski journalist Adam Ruck reported (in the Telegraph) skiing with a SCGB rep who kept falling over in front of him. The club has not been permitted to operate in St Anton, Austria, for around 30 years, for reasons which are understood to be related. Did you look into that?

Obviously this is not to denigrate SCGB people who do a great job on the mountains, providing excellent leadership and safety.

British ski instructors (who are generally qualified to much higher standards because they have to ski to high technical skills for ski schools) understand these issues perfectly. It ain't a game for amateurs any longer. The SCGB, however, just carries on with the same arguments for amateur 'leaders'. As I said, there was a long era when the SCGB understood the deal perfectly and trained/examined its skiers to the highest standards ... but that was before BASI existed, over 50 years ago. Those were different times. We're not living in the 1950s now. It's 2016.

Hopefully there are SCGB people reading this who comprehend the universal issues of mountain leadership and qualifications and want to do things to the highest standards.

As for your claim about SCGB and BASI overlap with trainers for mountaincraft/off-piste skills, the only trainer consistently mentioned by the Club over the years is Nigel Shepherd ...

http://www.snoworks.co.uk/team_detail.asp?id=18

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

There are guides who work for the ski club, teaching mountaincraft to the leaders and for BASI running their mountain safety modules. Sorry if the truth doesn't fit in with your warped view. I don't want to give their names because I don't want you bothering them.

On the second Verbier case, the prosecutor was told off by the judge at the appeal for launching an appeal and ordered not to appeal again. Again, make of that what you will.

Obviously you have no evidence to support any of your wild claims. Obviously you won't ever stop banging on about it either, because you are a sad little man with nothing better to do.

A snowHead

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Goodness this is acrimonious.

While there is some interesting stuff in the debate, there's some rather severe name calling too. Keep to legitimate interpretations of the situation, guys, which of course may vary.

'Ski club' as a term has indeed been stretched. But note RAC - which hardly is a club anymore. WLTC - Wimbledon Lawn Tennis Club - multi-million pound enterprise. Start the 'One True Skiers' Club' or Skiers' High Inclination Trust' maybe. I'd join the latter for sure.

Seriously, and this is a BIG ISSUE:

But I don't understand the 'you ski off piste on your own, with no safety gear and no mobile phone'. Frankly I can't see that this is a problem at all. I have plenty of guide friends and competent adults who do exactly this.

Be self reliant - lots of avalanche deaths result from 'group think' - good research on this.
Know the mountain - good knowledge of the locale is the key to safety - no getting into s**t in the first place - good research on this.
Not having safety gear - beacons useless if you are on your own - ABS iffy and people depend on the gear and not the knowledge
No mobile phone - Er, no signal anywhere on our backcountry - leave your itinerary and times with someone somewhere charged with acting if times breached

The issue of death is a family matter - even if the family includes children, and I make no judgement about whether it's irresponsible to put yourself at risk by skiing solo.

I climb solo. Chance could do all sorts of things. Broken ankle (death in some situations). A fall on a scree (death). A serac fall (death). A meteorite strike (death). But leaving an itinerary at least means I might be recovered at some point.

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@Gerry,

Hmmm....

My brother once intervened in a fight on a London street between a man and a woman, pulling the man off the woman, the next thing my brother experienced was the woman hitting him over the head with a half-brick. He retired at that point and watched the two go at each other again...

Now, your last post before I similarly leave you to it....

Yes, aware of the Italian law, but not strictly rational to carry a beacon if you are on your own, nor a phone, for the reasons I cite. Not all laws are sane or sensible:

http://www.crazylaws.com (Some of these entries are not quite right, but never mind, point made)

That's it .... I'm out of here....

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@valais2, yeah, well, my point is that going off on your own is less safe than going in a group and not having any gear automatically prevents you from helping others. I also just find it strange that someone who objects so strongly to buying safety equipment then decides that I should only go off-piste with a qualified guide. Whatever way you look at it, Goldenballs seems to be at odds with his own position, some might even call him a hypocrite. A pheasant plucker on a price, if you ask me.

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Ongoing uncertainty concerning the sale of the SCGB's White House (HQ, clubhouse) in Wimbledon ...

A couple of SCGB members have publicly expressed doubts or criticism concerning the disposal of the freehold property. The Club reported (1 June 2016) ...
[ http://www.skiclub.co.uk/skiclub/news/story.aspx?storyID=9696#.V3uaT-srLnA ]

"Council has taken the decision to move forward with the sale of the building ... and the Club has now accepted an offer in excess of the sale price [£4 million]."

SCGB member Helen O'brien comments (17 June) ...

"Diversify asset base? Surely, in London, property is king!"

SCGB member John Hine comments (1 July) ...

"same as the fiasco surrounding surrendering the lease on Eaton Square. More extremely muddled thinking and most unprofessional at best. You have let us down again. I wonder who gains this time?
I expect this comment will be removed as all negative comments have been so far. Why not resign?"

Of course ... the reported downturn in the London property market since the 'Brexit' vote on 23 June ...

[FT: https://next.ft.com/content/b17b4250-427f-11e6-9b66-0712b3873ae1 BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36708851 ]

... gives a fresh perspective to the SCGB's acceptance of a £4m+ offer. But was a cast iron deal struck? The property continues to be advertised, as of today ...

For Sale
£4,000,000.00
The White House, 57 - 63 Church Road
Office, Offices , 7705 Sq Ft

https://propertylink.estatesgazette.com/property-details/6130237-the-white-house-57-63-church-road

@Davina Goldballs, Why not phone up and ask for a viewing?

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I realise that I am in danger of feeding the troll again, but David there is so much in what you have posted in the last few days that I do not believe and should be challenged. After trawling the internet you have found a posting on the welove2ski message board from someone called Ian de Haan that suits your agenda.

Firstly if you wish to bring up the subject of past accidents, even if one of them is some time ago, there is no need to name the unfortunate victims. We have no idea who reads these boards and to see the names repeated particularly in the context that you invoke them, could be upsetting to next of kin and friends. Stating the year and location is more than sufficient if you must keep bringing this up. In any case as you know the ski club leaders were exonerated by the Swiss courts in both cases and I hope the families of the bereaved can take some small comfort, from knowing that official investigations decided that no negligence was involved.

Ian de Haan says that he attended the reps course in 1989/90. I attended it in December 1991 where Fred Harper, Martin Epp and Serge Lambert were also conducting the off piste training. I was a rep for twelve weeks in 1992. Subsequently I have been on various holidays led by Fred, Martin and Serge and that involves spending plenty of time in the bar and at dinner in the hotels with them and obviously knowing that I was an ex rep, meant that they were probably more forthcoming with the likes of me when the topic of repping cropped up. I have never heard any of them say anything like that the comments attributed to them by Ian de Haan.

In the evening lectures the 1989 accident was discussed. Fred and Martin expressed repeatedly and in very strong terms what responsibilities were involved in leading off piste and how we should be very much aware of our own limitations, but they never suggested that we should not do it.

For those that don’t know, when Fred died of cancer some years ago he received obituaries in the mainstream media for his work regarding mountain safety with regard to both skiing and climbing. If he was really opposed to the ski club leading off piste I feel sure he would have used his considerable influence in the British ski scene to try and stop it. Martin and Serge are Swiss nationals who worked for the ski club for many years. Martin has written books on avalanche safety and outdoor survival and like Fred was obsessive about safety. To suggest that the likes of Fred, Martin and Serge would continue to train ski club leaders, just because if they did not someone less competent might do so, is an insult to them as professionals and an insult to them as individuals.

You mentioned the ski club leader who died in 1996. As far as I know he was not acting in any ski club capacity when that happed. Lots of people be they ski club leaders, ski instructors or mountain guides will carry out different risk assessments when they are skiing in their own time, compared to when they are leading members or clients. That is true of guides and instructors in many sports. If a tragedy occurs it is no reflection on their training or their capability to lead people when an acting in an official capacity.

You want to know who conducts the off piste leaders course training now. I agree with Gerry that there is no need to name them as I am well aware of the lack of respect you show for other peoples’ privacy. Actually I probably know them better than Gerry because I have skied with them on average two weeks a season for the past eight years. I can assure you that they are very well qualified indeed to conduct the leaders training.

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After my previous post I thought I would mention the St Anton situation separately. It is ridiculous David, for you to suggest that there was no ski club rep in St Anton since the 1980s. You were still a member until a few years ago and the knowledge that there was a rep continuously in the resort until about ten years ago was available to all members.

I last skied with a rep in St Anton in 2001 although I did not realise that repping went on for another five years. Even in 2001, for the previous two seasons the rep/leader was restricted to leading on piste only. To my amazement they could not even take members on the marked itinerary routes although they are shown on the maps and the display boards as well as being avalanche protected.

The objection to a ski club leader in St Anton has nothing to do with safety but all to do with the parochial attitude of the ski school. I love the place for the skiing and have been there many times but despite it being internationally famous in the world of skiing, it is incredibly insular. You only have to read the threads about the ski shop cartel in St Anton to appreciate that.

I recall skiing with a rep in 1988 and being told then how the ski school was objecting to the ski club leading there. In those days the Arlberg ski school had a complete monopoly and were trying to protect their patch as they viewed it, much as the French have done.

The ski club latterly owed its continued presence in the resort largely to a lady called Lilli Stein who was part of a St Anton hotelier family. The ski club has often relied on its champions in certain resorts and Lilli was one of the best. She was still acting as a greeter in the Hotel Sport in 2001 by which time she must have been about eighty. You would walk in the lobby and this very petite frail looking old lady would be standing there to shake hands. It was only when she died that the ski school stopped the ski club leading there. To think that the macho members of the Arlberg ski school were afraid of a little old lady.

As I said it had nothing to do with safety.

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You know it makes sense.

Thank you Richip !

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

I see the in-tray has contributions from two correspondents - two of them identifying themselves (Gerry and richjp) and two who are communicating anonymously.
Let's dispose of the latter first ...

'Super Chap Great Bloke' ... I first skied in 1959, so have been skiing in the decades 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, 2000s and 2010s (I make that 7 decades, in Scandinavia, Scotland, England, the Alps, east and west America, Australia and Japan). Please ask me again in 2020 and we'll see if I continue in that decade.

'Scrumpy' ... got anything useful to say?

Gerry ... wants you to believe ... regarding the representation of the SCGB in St Anton ...
"The director of the local ski school didn't want the Ski Club there, so that was it, invitation withdrawn. Not sure where you get the 30 years from though, as the Club were there up until 2006."

Given that Gerry Aitken has been a director of the SCGB for 7 of the past 16 years, you'd think he'd know the truth. Come on Gerry, search the records (instead of writing fairy stories). In which years, since 1980, has the SCGB had a rep posted in St Anton? I've some information from the St Anton tourist office this morning, so it'll be interesting to compare it with what you find out.

richjp ... call me a "troll" if it makes you feel better, but this kind of name-calling is very 'passé' and questionable on social media now. I have named specific skiers who have died in incidents involving SCGB reps/leaders, because these were real young people with lives ahead of them ... these fatalities (and other incidents involving serious injuries) should have influenced the Club's training and safety policies ... but the Club sticks (27 years later) with the assertion that it is right and proper for amateur 'leaders' to guide groups into off-piste terrain ... when all other authorities insist that this should be done by correctly-qualified instructors or professional ski guides.

You are well aware of the stark difference between the technical level of a BASI instructor qualified to teach off-piste ... and a SCGB 'leader' who has done a short course. I've remarked on previous occasions of the historical roots of this problem - the Ski Club essentially dissociated itself with Scottish skiing just as the mountains were being mechanised and popularised in the early 1960s. BASI (originally BAPSI) established itself ... without the SCGB's involvement, because the SCGB had very unwisely and snobbishly left the scene. The SCGB retreated to Belgravia and began its 50-60 years of decline and bumbling about. It should have raised its game.

You and Gerry dispute the evidence of Ian de Haan, but neither of you were there. There is every reason to believe that the 1989 fatality was an immediate wake-up call (albeit temporary) for the SCGB. This was a shocking and avoidable incident. I was technical editor of the SCGB magazine 'Ski Survey' when this happened (and had been for 5 years) when this happened. The 2007 fatality should have been another serious warning to the Club. And then there was the other death we know so little about. And the rumours about a 4th fatality, in France. There is every reason to believe that Ian de Haan's training in 1989 was exactly as he describes ... a direct professional response to a very serious challenge to the SCGB's way of thinking ... and that Caroline Stuart-Taylor's departure from the SCGB to start Freshtracks was a realisation that the off-piste ski guiding/leadership role is best performed by qualified professionals only.

It's time you guys finally woke up and smelled the coffee - it's been standing around for 27 years.

A snowHead

you're on the wine early today David Goldsmith

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Fine, I was out by 5yrs. Genuine mistake.

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Seeing as the SCGB is such a mendacious entity conducting exceptionally fraudulent activity and lying to it's members, possibly HMRC and maybe even the International Criminal Court in the Hague, I can't understand why this isn't covered perpetually by Anne Robinson on Watchdog, regularly featuring in Private Eye or indeed have it's own sub-forum on Mumsnet. Maybe DG needs to make them aware as they've clearly missed some sort of major scoop; I'm sure they'd be exceptionally interested in what he's uncovered. What aren't SFO involved too is what I want to know

Does anyone other than Bold Vaginal Lads have any interest at all in the stuff in this thread, other than to marvel at the sheer dogged-ness ?

There was a thread on a well-known (to cycling fans) forum about Armstrong and his drug taking that ran on, and on, and on and that too was similarly perpetuated mainly by a small group of people who seemed to feel the same degree of bitterness that is exhibited on here

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"You are well aware of the stark difference between the technical level of a BASI instructor qualified to teach off-piste ... and a SCGB 'leader' who has done a short course".

IS the technical level of instructors irrelevant as SCGB leaders don't teach ?....
Does having a Basi instructor LVL 3 say, mean they are better skiers than SGB leaders ? ...
Are there SCGB leaders who are BASI lvl 3 and who have their off piste qualifications ?
What is the difference in content of the Basi off piste qualification to that of the SCGB leader course ?
Ski guides are not necessarily "good" skiers, good skiers are not necessarily ski guides ...

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Re St Anton. Pretty sure that I skied with David Ross and Olivier Gorden who were acting as SCGB reps at St Anton, in 92.

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I repped in St Anton in 98/99 and 99/2000. That may have been the last season, or there was possibly one more.

We were not supposed to ski off-piste or on itinerary routes without hiring a guide from the Arlberg ski school, which we were encouraged to do twice a week. We were told it was for safety reasons, but we felt that it was as much to do with getting more work for the ski school. Members often baulked at the extra expense, however, so it was hard to keep to this plan.

A particular rep, whose name I'd better not mention, used to flout the rules about off-piste ski-ing, which upset the head of ski school, in particular, and the Club was banished from the resort soon after. That also co-incided with the death of Lilli Stein, as mentioned in a previous post, who had been a great supporter / sponsor of the Club in resort.

A pity, as it was a great resort to rep in, and the hospitality provided by the Sport Hotel (meals / office hour) and Haus Elizabeth (accommodation) were very warm and welcoming.

Anyway, that's my version of events as I recall them.

Regarding, St Anton, it would help if the SCGB 'loyalists' hereabout would identify which years exactly the Club has had a rep/leader stationed in the resort since 1980. Stephen Buck's comments above - along with the information from the St Anton tourist office - suggest that the Club reinstated its presence in the resort during the late 1990s and a year or two later ... because my recollection (as above) is that there was no consistent presence there in the 1980s and earlier in the 1990s.

The following media reports of the past 24 hours might assist in understanding why the safety and ski school authorities in St Anton (where avalanche history is substantial and notorious) might be sceptical of essentially unqualified people leading groups across its off-piste terrain. Can an unqualified Austrian perform similar tasks to an 'SCGB-trained' leader/rep ... or is this work in Austria (or Switzerland, or France) restricted to qualified instructors and guides?

The Ski Club of Great Brexit (if that's the general spirit right now) is long past its prime of being some sort of international authority in skiing, posting its reps in 'colonial outposts' and generally being able to tell 'johnny foreigner' what to do. We live in a world of international fraternity and respect of law, safety and professionalism. There are common wisdoms about things like mountain risks and how to mitigate them. For context ...

A 25-year-old German instructor has just been convicted for the death of a 14-year-old ski racer, taken in a group into avalanche-prone terrain in the Zillertal last January ...

https://www.tz.de/muenchen/stadt/bewaehrung-skitrainer-nach-tod-eines-14-jaehrigen-6548311.html
https://www.ovb-online.de/bayern/14-jaehriger-verschuettet-stirbt-lawine-trainer-verurteilt-nach-6549843.html
https://www.facebook.com/groups/BASIMembers/permalink/10153554319260826/

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@stephen buck,

Thank you for your post. I don't recall your name but it is possible I might have skied a day or two with you in St Anton.

I definitely skied with a rep there in 2001. I am certain about that year because it was the year St Anton hosted the world championships and we arrived just as they were ending.

I heard those rumours about probably the same rep as you but of course without knowing the full facts it just speculation. The trouble with rumours is that once they start they spread and can get exaggerated. If it is true then you would have thought if there had been willingness on both the part of the ski club and the resort that the issue could have been resolved.

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