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New Ski Club of Great Britain chat forum

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
[quote="Richard_Sideways"]
Quote:
and the always favoured Wimbledon dogging social and Womble Tupping.


FIFY
ski holidays
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Gerry wrote:
Dear dear me, you do seem to be in a muddle over just about everything, don't you.


Well we're on to the 110 page of this de-muddling trajectory - and you've been of immense help, as always - so let's take it a step forward.

2 July 2016 marks the 4th anniversary of Frank McCusker taking over as chief executive of the Ski Club of Great Britain and you - Gerry Aitken - have spent much of the 21st century (7 years out of 16) as a director of the organisation, so maybe this is a good time for a performance review. Subject headings could include, with the most topical first ... (we've covered the first two already) ...

1. The White House (SCGB HQ, clubhouse, library). Is it actually "sold"? (as per PlanetSki report: http://www.planetski.eu/news/8010 )
Where is the Club moving to, and is it planning to provide facilities for members (the library etc.) or only operate an operational office?

2. The 15,000 new SCGB student members. Are they now paying subscriptions? Will they pay subscriptions? How will they merge into general membership?
Relevant links: https://www.line-s.co.uk/
http://www.travelmole.com/news_feature.php?news_id=2021339&c=setreg&region=2

3. The non-student core membership. What's the latest picture of recruitment and retention?
Has the packaging of travel insurance in membership packages worked? How many 'Platinum' (insurance inclusive) membership have been sold?

4. Publishing (magazine): What's the latest circulation figure for Ski+Board? Is there any plan to restore it to commercial circulation? [The club's former magazine achieved a maximised newstrade paid circulation of 12,000+).

5. Publishing (website): what is the traffic data for skiclub.co.uk, relative to previous years?

6. Social media: where does the SCGB see its role in discussion of skiing? The skiclub.co.uk 'chat forum', Facebook etc.

7. Representation/leadership. What's the latest on the Club's status in France and other countries? What are the plans for this? Is the Club seeking to re-establish any role in Scottish skiing? (Scotland being a constituent part of Great Britain)

8. Social events, active skiing events in the UK. The Club had a series of ski events at the Snow Centre, Hemel Hempstead - what's the latest on this, or related activity? The summer party has been cancelled this year - are there any other plans.

9. Other projects and development.

10. A.O.B
ski holidays
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Sorry David but if you are no longer a member why does it matter to you? I dont get it.
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 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
@FFIRMIN, that question is the SH equivalent of the perky American teen who is ok with smoking/drinking/pre-marital sex, going to investigate what that weird noise is in the cellar of a creepy old house...
ski holidays
 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@Davina Goldballs, why are you asking me this sh!te? As I told you, I'm not invoked any more. Are you thick or something?
ski holidays
 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
FFIRMIN wrote:
Sorry David but if you are no longer a member why does it matter to you? I dont get it.


He suffers from delusions of grandeur. At the moment he believes he's the Chair of a House of Commons select committee.

The reality is somewhat different.

Ferrous Cranus



Quote:
Ferrous Cranus is utterly impervious to reason, persuasion and new ideas, and when engaged in battle he will not yield an inch in his position regardless of its hopelessness. Though his thrusts are decisively repulsed, his arguments crushed in every detail and his defenses demolished beyond repair he will remount the same attack again and again with only the slightest variation in tactics. Sometimes out of pure frustration Philosopher will try to explain to him the failed logistics of his situation, or Therapist will attempt to penetrate the psychological origins of his obduracy, but, ever unfathomable, Ferrous Cranus cannot be moved.


http://www.flamewarriorsguide.com/warriorshtm/ferouscranus.htm
snow report
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
FFIRMIN wrote:
Sorry David but if you are no longer a member why does it matter to you?


I appreciate why you say that, FFIRMIN [are you a lawyer, BTW, in which case 'which firm are you in'?] ... but you may appreciate from the top of p.109 that there is some ambiguity to my current SCGB membership status. As of last November I have a membership card, a 2016 membership pack and an Ortovox backpack with SCGB logo ... and am anticipating legal confirmation that this constitutes a current membership (given that I've received an emailed membership confirmation). I shall obviously wish to renew my subscription and attend the 2016 AGM.

Gerry wrote:
As I told you, I'm not involved any more.


Yes you keep telling us that, but you attend SCGB AGMs, you go on lots of expenses-paid SCGB ski trips and seem to act as some sort of freelance SCGB 'social media relations attack dog'. You seem to promote the SCGB as some sort of 'Ski Club of Little England' (taking into account your Brexit vote and attitude to the French ski authorities]. All in life is fair, and you're welcome to record all the positive aspects of your endeavours with the Ski Club over the past 15 years. That's partly why the 'performance review' (above) is proposed.

Principally, you're an SCGB Leader.

The SCGB will train more 'leaders' this December ... at a cost of £2899 per candidate, not including travel ... to represent the Club and steward skiers in the Alps etc. But they are not legally allowed to lead skiers in France (the UK's major ski destination) and have a sketchy safety record, perhaps partly reflecting the level of that training. Ski Club Freshtracks - not included in the 10 points above, since holidays are obviously not part of the membership package - seem to be really the only passion you have for the SCGB. Now why would that be? In many peoples' eyes the Club is now really a commercial tour operator ... with a club tacked on. The problem with that strategy - putting the club on the back-burner while the tours operation is financed and focused to the hilt - is that the Ski Club of Great Britain (as built and devised and loved from 1903 to the 1950s) further diminishes. Publishing, information, advice, communication and 'esprit de corps' must always be at the heart of the Club.

It's time to restore The Club to the front-burner!
snow report
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@Davina Goldballs

Quote:
Principally, you're an SCGB Leader.


Wrong. First and foremost, I'm a Ski Club members.

I can confirm that I am only interested in the skiing aspects of the Ski Club. In order of preference here is what I'm interested in

1. Paying to go on or leading holidays.

2. Skiing with Club leaders and instructors.

3. Club social stuff.

4. Discounts.

5. Information i.e ski tests etc.

I see no need to respond to your silly questions, lies and slurs. You are nothing but a small man with a large chip on your shoulder.


Last edited by After all it is free Go on u know u want to! on Tue 28-06-16 19:42; edited 1 time in total
ski holidays
 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
[quote="Davina Goldballs"]
FFIRMIN wrote:


The SCGB will train more 'leaders' this December ... at a cost of £2899 per candidate, not including travel ... to represent the Club and steward skiers in the Alps etc. But they are not legally allowed to lead skiers in France (the UK's major ski destination) and have a sketchy safety record, perhaps partly reflecting the level of that training.


Personally I don't have much time for the DB/Gerry debate, but feel that the implication that the standard of the leader's training is sub-par is erroneous....
Having done the course and 2 subsequent refreshers, I can state as an avid free-rider and no longer SCGB "leader" that the depth and safety consciousness of the various segments of the course are second to none in the non-professional sector......
snow conditions
 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
The price IS a bit sniffy though........
snow conditions
 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
[quote="KenX"]
Davina Goldballs wrote:
FFIRMIN wrote:


The SCGB will train more 'leaders' this December ... at a cost of £2899 per candidate, not including travel ... to represent the Club and steward skiers in the Alps etc. But they are not legally allowed to lead skiers in France (the UK's major ski destination) and have a sketchy safety record, perhaps partly reflecting the level of that training.


Personally I don't have much time for the DB/Gerry debate, but feel that the implication that the standard of the leader's training is sub-par is erroneous....
Having done the course and 2 subsequent refreshers, I can state as an avid free-rider and no longer SCGB "leader" that the depth and safety consciousness of the various segments of the course are second to none in the non-professional sector......


I remember someone on the BASI Facebook page giving the Ski Club training a good kicking, only for them to find out that it was the same as the BASI off-piste safety modules they'd done themselves and even used the same trainers.
ski holidays
 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Gerry wrote:

I remember someone on the BASI Facebook page giving the Ski Club training a good kicking ...


The SCGB's off-piste/avalanche training, as I understand it, is carried out nowadays by instructor-trainers and guides who are external to the SCGB - it's a contracted role. Historically - before BASI existed - the SCGB evolved a 3-grade ski proficiency medal scheme (bronze-silver-gold) and the best SCGB skiers were the best recreational skiers in/from the UK. The 'gold test' - in particular - was revered. For example, one had to be able to ski breakable crust ... with whatever equipment was available at the time. All that was before British ski instructors existed, in terms of receiving training from a British organisation.

Gerry wrote:

... only for them to find out that it was the same as the BASI off-piste safety modules they'd done themselves and even used the same trainers.


If the SCGB's current trainers are the same as BASI's current off-piste trainers, then I am a currant.

You need to tell us, Gerry (try and keep a straight face) whether there is any comparison - in technical skiing terms - between a BASI instructor seeking a professional qualification (via its module) to take and teach people how to teach skiers to ski powder, crud etc. ... and deal with all back-country situations/threats ...

... and an amateur candidate for the SCGB's 'leader' course - which is a non-transferable certificate, only recognised by the SCGB.

How are candidates for the SCGB leaders course screened? There's no mention at all - in this blurb - about screening. Is it just 'pay £2899 and you're on', or is there a test of candidates (or some other method by which aspirant SCGB leaders are judged?).

It's said that the SCGB course has a very high pass rate. Would you know anything about that?

This is - literally - deadly serious. You are well aware of the record - at least as far as the SCGB has ever documented its record. The SCGB needs to stop 'fucking about', basically [BASIcally].
latest report
 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@Davina Goldballs
Quote:
If the SCGB's current trainers are the same as BASI's current off-piste trainers, then I am a currant
.

Last time I check, some of the guides that BASI use for their mountaincraft modules were the same ones the Ski Club used for their courses. Again the truth is not what you want, though, is it?

Quote:
You need to tell us, Gerry (try and keep a straight face) whether there is any comparison - in technical skiing terms - between a BASI instructor seeking a professional qualification (via its module) to take and teach people how to teach skiers to ski powder, crud etc. ... and deal with all back-country situations/threats ...

... and an amateur candidate for the SCGB's 'leader' course - which is a non-transferable certificate, only recognised by the SCGB.

You
When I did my refresher course in Dec 2013, I was in a group with five BASI instructors. Three were level 3 and two were level 2. Our group skiing with two guides for two days each. Conditions were sketchy. I passed and wasn't the weakest skier, or even the second weakest. Make of that what you will.

Quote:
How are candidates for the SCGB leaders course screened? There's no mention at all - in this blurb - about screening. Is it just 'pay £2899 and you're on', or is there a test of candidates (or some other method by which aspirant SCGB leaders are judged?).



They get interviewed and need a couple of references. Of course you've been told this many many times already so I'm guessing it's selective amnesia or early onset of something?

Quote:
It's said that the SCGB course has a very high pass rate. Would you know anything about that?


It's said by whom?

Quote:
This is - literally - deadly serious. You are well aware of the record - at least as far as the SCGB has ever documented its record. The SCGB needs to stop 'Be Nice please! about', basically [BASIcally].


Yes, I'm aware of the record and it's extremely good. Lets me see, there was the first fatal Verbier incident, where the leader was exonerated of all blame by a non criminal enquiry. Then there was the second fatal Verbier incident were the leader was exonerated twice by a Swiss judge in a combined criminal and civil case. In between those two there was the Aspen non fatal ACL incident where the civil case was thrown out of court. That's 2 serious incidents in 80+ years.

Oh yeah, I'd forgotten about the secret incident that only you know about but won't give any details on out of 'respect for those involved'. Have you made up any new ones?

As always, any time you want to meet for a chat about all this, you just let me know.
snow report
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@Gerry Airtken, you've been spinning, bluffing and trolling on this for about 14 years now. Seven of those years were spent as a director of the Ski Club of Great Britain, which gave you full access to any documents you needed to form a more mature and expert outlook on all this ... but it's clear now that you didn't independently investigate any of it. The simple truth is that all you've done is use this channel - and others - to prop up a 'status quo' that serves you and others with lots of expenses-paid skiing. The SCGB used to run far more successfully, on very different principles of altruism and commitment.

It's quite obvious, from the way you gloss over the (deadly) serious issue of SCGB leadership safety, that you're not concerned with the Club's training standards or candidate quality or performance quality. No, there have not been "2 serious incidents in 80+ years" - as you put it. There was the death of Michael Mahaffy in a Verbier avalanche in 1989, and the death of Jean-Philippe Marquette in another Verbier incident in 2007. And a further fatality at some time between the two (the victim has not been identified). That is approximately one fatality per decade ... as far as public or semi-public information is known.

You say that the leader was "exonerated" in each Verbier case. Where are the records supporting that claim? What are you citing? The Swiss prosecutor persisted for years with the second case - why?

The 3rd death - in France - for which the Club has documentary evidence, cannot have been secret to you. All you needed to do was ask. Numerous incidents involving serious injuries can also arguably be attributed to skiers being led down slopes which were unsuitable for their abilities. There have been cases of SCGB leaders apprehended on the French slopes by the authorities for not holding recognised qualifications. And the British ski journalist Adam Ruck reported (in the Telegraph) skiing with a SCGB rep who kept falling over in front of him. The club has not been permitted to operate in St Anton, Austria, for around 30 years, for reasons which are understood to be related. Did you look into that?

Obviously this is not to denigrate SCGB people who do a great job on the mountains, providing excellent leadership and safety.

British ski instructors (who are generally qualified to much higher standards because they have to ski to high technical skills for ski schools) understand these issues perfectly. It ain't a game for amateurs any longer. The SCGB, however, just carries on with the same arguments for amateur 'leaders'. As I said, there was a long era when the SCGB understood the deal perfectly and trained/examined its skiers to the highest standards ... but that was before BASI existed, over 50 years ago. Those were different times. We're not living in the 1950s now. It's 2016.

Hopefully there are SCGB people reading this who comprehend the universal issues of mountain leadership and qualifications and want to do things to the highest standards.

As for your claim about SCGB and BASI overlap with trainers for mountaincraft/off-piste skills, the only trainer consistently mentioned by the Club over the years is Nigel Shepherd ...

http://www.snoworks.co.uk/team_detail.asp?id=18

Quote:
• Member of the International Federation of Mountain Guides Association.
• Member of the Britsh Mountain Guides Association.
• Alpine Safety Advisor to the Ski Club of Great Britain.


Are you saying that Nigel Shepherd trains for BASI?
Please name names of those off-piste trainers who train for BASI and the SCGB, currently.
ski holidays
 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
There are guides who work for the ski club, teaching mountaincraft to the leaders and for BASI running their mountain safety modules. Sorry if the truth doesn't fit in with your warped view. I don't want to give their names because I don't want you bothering them.

On the second Verbier case, the prosecutor was told off by the judge at the appeal for launching an appeal and ordered not to appeal again. Again, make of that what you will.

Obviously you have no evidence to support any of your wild claims. Obviously you won't ever stop banging on about it either, because you are a sad little man with nothing better to do.

Quote:
The club has not been permitted to operate in St Anton, Austria, for around 30 years, for reasons which are understood to be related. Did you look into that?


The director of the local ski school didn't want the Ski Club there, so that was it, invitation withdrawn. Not sure where you get the 30 years from though, as the Club were there up until 2006.

Like I said, any time you want to meet up for a more in depth briefing, you just let me know.
latest report
 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Gerry wrote:
There are guides who work for the ski club, teaching mountaincraft to the leaders and for BASI running their mountain safety modules ... I don't want to give their names because I don't want you bothering them.


Don't be ridiculous. Nigel Shepherd does not operate on condition of anonymity and neither does any other ski professional. Come on - you've made a bold claim, so stack it up. Who are the current SCGB off-piste/mountaincraft trainers?

Gerry wrote:

On the second Verbier case, the prosecutor was told off by the judge at the appeal for launching an appeal and ordered not to appeal again ...
... the Club were there [St Anton] up until 2006.


Please cite the official information you're referring to, as regards both those points. I've no recollection of any SCGB rep operating in St Anton since some time in the 1980s.

-------------------------------------
What do you make of this ... a first-hand retrospective account of an ex-SCGB rep Ian de Haan ... writing on 30 December 2014 ...

Quote:
I did a SCGB Reps Course way back in 1989/90 and this is a two week course in Tignes.
The course was then instructed by Martin Epp, Serge Lambert and Fred Harper. These were the most eminent Mountain Guides at the time, each having lead their own groups all over the world.
They all told us that they all decided to offer their services to give the best advice they could, as they felt that if they did not, then other and far less suitable people would, and they all feel that would be a bad thing.
Although the course gave tuition on various issues, from layering of snow, different types of snow, how the weather impacted on the snow for days after snowfall, use of transceivers, they all agreed on one thing – That none of us should EVER think we had any ability to guide and that we should NEVER take anyone off piste. To become a qualified Mountain Guide, takes many years and even then your detailed knowledge is generally limited to the area you live in or know best all year around. Wider knowledge is then gained slowly and learned thoroughly.
On my course, I shared a room with Monty Montague, who, I learned later, died in an avalanche whilst guiding a group off piste in Verbier.
After the course, I went on to Rep in La Plagne, where to begin with the snow was in short supply, but then when it did arrive, it fell in abnormally large quantities and all the resorts closed due to the avalanche danger. Despite this, I had requests from some guests, including journalists to carry on skiing, which I refused. Some holiday makers skied a closed off run with a holiday company leader and the entire group were avalanched but thankfully all saved.
I had a furious call from the Ski Club of Great Britain office, demanding that I reinstate the skiing, which I had cancelled, due to the dangerous conditions, some members had evidently phoned to complain. I declined and suggested that the person should immediately visit the resort and see for herself why. Even the nursery slope had avalanched !
I see nothing wrong with SCGB Reps leading members around the pistes, showing them the best runs and restaurants etc. but they should NEVER think they know where to ski off piste, even if they have been there with a qualified Mountain Guide, as conditions change by the hour and you never know where crevices are hiding and where to go if cloud descends on you !
A good snow depth is critical for off piste skiing, especially safely built up layers and base. When there has been little snow and rocks are exposed, it is relatively safe, if it snows a little and there is then ten centimetres of fresh snow, a lot of rocks are covered and off piste suddenly becomes very dangerous / hazardous.
Ski safe and only follow qualified Guides, who do not take risks, know where to go for amazing powder skiing and then enjoy some memorable skiing, in safety, and repeat as often as you can !


Source [comments below article]:
"Ski Hosting Ban Claims Another Casualty" ... by Sean Newsom, WeLove2Ski
The French campaign against ski hosting has today claimed another casualty in the Alps – the Ski Club of Great Britain’s Ski Leader programme.

http://welove2ski.com/how-to-ski/ski-club-ski-hosting-ban

Well ... how interesting and compelling. Remember that the first Verbier death - to Michael Mahaffy - had occurred earlier in 1989. And - according to that first-hand account - the SCGB's eminent trainers at the following reps course were training SCGB reps NOT to lead skiers off-piste.

Everyone I was communicating with at the time agreed with that - the argument for amateur ski leading off-piste was over - Too dangerous. Too risky. Reckless to expose the SCGB to the liability, for so little reason.
That was the view on the ground ... in 1989.
snow report
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Davina Goldballs wrote:
Gerry wrote:
There are guides who work for the ski club, teaching mountaincraft to the leaders and for BASI running their mountain safety modules ... I don't want to give their names because I don't want you bothering them.


Don't be ridiculous. Nigel Shepherd does not operate on condition of anonymity and neither does any other ski professional. Come on - you've made a bold claim, so stack it up. Who are the current SCGB off-piste/mountaincraft trainers?


Right, so you think the idea that the Ski Club uses the same mountain guides to train their leaders in mountaincraft as BASI do, to train their members, to be so totally fantastical that you are a 'currant' if it turns out to be the case? Well, seeming as you have such a big mouth on the subject, we should have a £1,000 bet on it.

http://www.basi.org.uk/docs/BASI_Member_HANDBOOK_2012_Web_20Dec12.pdf

^ bottom of page 17 you'll find a list of guides that Basi used that season. Two of the names on that list also trained Ski Club Leaders (me included) in Tignes in Dec 2013 on the Club's refresher course. Not sure who BASI or the Club are using this year, but I would be surprised if it isn't the same guides.

Quote:


Gerry wrote:

On the second Verbier case, the prosecutor was told off by the judge at the appeal for launching an appeal and ordered not to appeal again ...
... the Club were there [St Anton] up until 2006.


Please cite the official information you're referring to, as regards both those points. I've no recollection of any SCGB rep operating in St Anton since some time in the 1980s.


The 2nd Verbier case was heard in a public court and the Ski Club had English translations which I read. Anyway, no convictions in either case, just total exoneration. Re St Anton: Reps were leading off-piste until c. 2000, then the ski school said ski club groups could only go off-piste with one of their instructors. Reps were still allowed to lead on-piste until c. 2006, I think, when the ski school put a stop to that as well. Ski Club Leaders are still more than welcome in St Anton, but they are not allowed to lead on-snow. Don't know where you get the 30 year thing from, but clearly you need to improve your research methods.

Quote:


-------------------------------------
What do you make of this ... a first-hand retrospective account of an ex-SCGB rep Ian de Haan ... writing on 30 December 2014 ...

Quote:
I did a SCGB Reps Course way back in 1989/90 and this is a two week course in Tignes.
The course was then instructed by Martin Epp, Serge Lambert and Fred Harper. These were the most eminent Mountain Guides at the time, each having lead their own groups all over the world.
They all told us that they all decided to offer their services to give the best advice they could, as they felt that if they did not, then other and far less suitable people would, and they all feel that would be a bad thing.
Although the course gave tuition on various issues, from layering of snow, different types of snow, how the weather impacted on the snow for days after snowfall, use of transceivers, they all agreed on one thing – That none of us should EVER think we had any ability to guide and that we should NEVER take anyone off piste. To become a qualified Mountain Guide, takes many years and even then your detailed knowledge is generally limited to the area you live in or know best all year around. Wider knowledge is then gained slowly and learned thoroughly.
On my course, I shared a room with Monty Montague, who, I learned later, died in an avalanche whilst guiding a group off piste in Verbier.
After the course, I went on to Rep in La Plagne, where to begin with the snow was in short supply, but then when it did arrive, it fell in abnormally large quantities and all the resorts closed due to the avalanche danger. Despite this, I had requests from some guests, including journalists to carry on skiing, which I refused. Some holiday makers skied a closed off run with a holiday company leader and the entire group were avalanched but thankfully all saved.
I had a furious call from the Ski Club of Great Britain office, demanding that I reinstate the skiing, which I had cancelled, due to the dangerous conditions, some members had evidently phoned to complain. I declined and suggested that the person should immediately visit the resort and see for herself why. Even the nursery slope had avalanched !
I see nothing wrong with SCGB Reps leading members around the pistes, showing them the best runs and restaurants etc. but they should NEVER think they know where to ski off piste, even if they have been there with a qualified Mountain Guide, as conditions change by the hour and you never know where crevices are hiding and where to go if cloud descends on you !
A good snow depth is critical for off piste skiing, especially safely built up layers and base. When there has been little snow and rocks are exposed, it is relatively safe, if it snows a little and there is then ten centimetres of fresh snow, a lot of rocks are covered and off piste suddenly becomes very dangerous / hazardous.
Ski safe and only follow qualified Guides, who do not take risks, know where to go for amazing powder skiing and then enjoy some memorable skiing, in safety, and repeat as often as you can !


Source [comments below article]:
"Ski Hosting Ban Claims Another Casualty" ... by Sean Newsom, WeLove2Ski
The French campaign against ski hosting has today claimed another casualty in the Alps – the Ski Club of Great Britain’s Ski Leader programme.

http://welove2ski.com/how-to-ski/ski-club-ski-hosting-ban

Well ... how interesting and compelling. Remember that the first Verbier death - to Michael Mahaffy - had occurred earlier in 1989. And - according to that first-hand account - the SCGB's eminent trainers at the following reps course were training SCGB reps NOT to lead skiers off-piste.

Everyone I was communicating with at the time agreed with that - the argument for amateur ski leading off-piste was over - Too dangerous. Too risky. Reckless to expose the SCGB to the liability, for so little reason.
That was the view on the ground ... in 1989.


The guy sounds bitter and I wonder if he isn't just making stuff up. I've been skiing off-piste with Club Leaders since 1989 without any problems at all. Not sure what you have against people forming Ski Clubs, training themselves to lead and covering the risk via insurance? Getting a patronising lecture from you on the subject of mountain safety is a bit bizarre given your reckless attitude to skiing. You ski off-piste on your own with no safety equipment and refuse take a mobile phone. I think you stated that if you came across an incident you'd consider it not to be your problem. You're a dinosaur as well as being a currant.

Quote:
Detection and rescue gear is optional, in my book. I doubt if I'll ever buy a transceiver, though they are very interesting devices. -- David Goldsmith 2007


Quote:
Any skier choosing to venture into avalanche-risk terrain is voluntarily exposing him/herself to a risk of death with no reasonable expectation of rescue. There is no moral obligation on anyone else to carry expensive rescue equipment in the interests of a stranger (and obviously be required to know how to use it). -- David Goldsmith 2007



http://www.skiclub.co.uk/skiclub/membersonly/snowtalk/discussion.aspx/Skiing-And-Snowboarding-general?discussionID=9338#.VGN7tMmQFMM


Anyway, the Club didn't take your sage advice and has had an excellent safety record before and since 1989. One serious incident was dealt with in a Swiss court with a not guilty result. The court wasn't even critical of the Clubs on-snow activities. The other incident, of course, didn't even go to court.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Goodness this is acrimonious.

While there is some interesting stuff in the debate, there's some rather severe name calling too. Keep to legitimate interpretations of the situation, guys, which of course may vary.

'Ski club' as a term has indeed been stretched. But note RAC - which hardly is a club anymore. WLTC - Wimbledon Lawn Tennis Club - multi-million pound enterprise. Start the 'One True Skiers' Club' or Skiers' High Inclination Trust' maybe. I'd join the latter for sure.

Seriously, and this is a BIG ISSUE:

But I don't understand the 'you ski off piste on your own, with no safety gear and no mobile phone'. Frankly I can't see that this is a problem at all. I have plenty of guide friends and competent adults who do exactly this.

Be self reliant - lots of avalanche deaths result from 'group think' - good research on this.
Know the mountain - good knowledge of the locale is the key to safety - no getting into s**t in the first place - good research on this.
Not having safety gear - beacons useless if you are on your own - ABS iffy and people depend on the gear and not the knowledge
No mobile phone - Er, no signal anywhere on our backcountry - leave your itinerary and times with someone somewhere charged with acting if times breached

The issue of death is a family matter - even if the family includes children, and I make no judgement about whether it's irresponsible to put yourself at risk by skiing solo.

I climb solo. Chance could do all sorts of things. Broken ankle (death in some situations). A fall on a scree (death). A serac fall (death). A meteorite strike (death). But leaving an itinerary at least means I might be recovered at some point.
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valais2 wrote:


But I don't understand the 'you ski off piste on your own, with no safety gear and no mobile phone'. Frankly I can't see that this is a problem at all. I have plenty of guide friends and competent adults who do exactly this.


Yeah, do that if you like (not legally in parts of the Italian Alps though) it's up to you. So why then is 'Ski Club a bit of a stretch'? It's member owned, not for profit and they are free to do what they like within the law, are they not? They are even able to get insurance to cover liability. What have you got against people organising themselves in this way?
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@Gerry,

Hmmm....

My brother once intervened in a fight on a London street between a man and a woman, pulling the man off the woman, the next thing my brother experienced was the woman hitting him over the head with a half-brick. He retired at that point and watched the two go at each other again...

Now, your last post before I similarly leave you to it....

Yes, aware of the Italian law, but not strictly rational to carry a beacon if you are on your own, nor a phone, for the reasons I cite. Not all laws are sane or sensible:

http://www.crazylaws.com (Some of these entries are not quite right, but never mind, point made)

That's it .... I'm out of here....
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@valais2, yeah, well, my point is that going off on your own is less safe than going in a group and not having any gear automatically prevents you from helping others. I also just find it strange that someone who objects so strongly to buying safety equipment then decides that I should only go off-piste with a qualified guide. Whatever way you look at it, Goldenballs seems to be at odds with his own position, some might even call him a hypocrite. A pheasant plucker on a price, if you ask me.
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Gerry wrote:
You're a ... currant.


First of all, Gerry Aitken, calling me a "cunt" on social media doesn't strike me as the brightest thing to do. You may not be a director of the Ski Club of Great Britain any more, but you're still a representative of the Club. There have been so many complaints about your conduct over the years (and resignations of membership) that I don't suppose this one will make any difference. Maybe you should volunteer your separation from the organisation - it clearly does your head in. Why not start your own ski organisation - 'Gerrypicked' - for the discerning skier wanting to ski in the best places with the most professional guides?

Gerry wrote:

The guy [Ian de Haan, quoted above] sounds bitter and I wonder if he isn't just making stuff up.


Another sweet thing to say about a former colleague. The problem for you is that what Ian de Haan says comes across as entirely plausible, given the context and chronology. Why do you suggest that he is a liar?:

We know that a young skier called Michael Mahaffy died in an avalanche in 1989 in Verbier while skiing off-piste with a SCGB rep.
This incident caused very negative press for the Ski Club.
Ian de Haan reports that the following December (1989) he was strongly advised (if not instructed) by the Club not to lead skiers off-piste.
We know from her LinkedIn entry that Caroline Stuart-Taylor was 'Director of Winter Arrangements' for the SCGB from May 1980 to June 1990. Two months before that [April 1990] she had founded a company called Freshtracks, which was dedicated to off-piste skiing but not with amateur leaders. Freshtracks employed qualified guides and instructors to take skiers off-piste.

Have you worked out now what was happening?

We're now reminded by Ian de Haan that - seven years later in 1996 - another SCGB rep [Monty Montague] was involved in a fatality. This time it was his own death, in La Grave [not Verbier].

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1996-07-14/news/9607130596_1_french-alps-avalanche-snow-melts
https://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-111435147.html

Maybe you'd be interested in looking into that incident.

We then know of the death of Jean-Philippe Marquette, skiing with a SCGB rep in Verbier, in 2007. And - as I have reported - there was a another fatality in a French resort between those two times. As I understand it, this involved a skier dying in a river.

One is inclined to conclude - as many did at the time - that the SCGB's trainers Martin Epp, Serge Lambert and Fred Harper were absolutely wise in the instructions they gave in 1989 ... "they all agreed on one thing – That none of us should EVER think we had any ability to guide and that we should NEVER take anyone off piste." [as reported by Ian de Haan].

Gerry wrote:
You ski off-piste on your own


Just another lie. What the hell do you know - you've never skied with me in your life.
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Ongoing uncertainty concerning the sale of the SCGB's White House (HQ, clubhouse) in Wimbledon ...

A couple of SCGB members have publicly expressed doubts or criticism concerning the disposal of the freehold property. The Club reported (1 June 2016) ...
[ http://www.skiclub.co.uk/skiclub/news/story.aspx?storyID=9696#.V3uaT-srLnA ]

"Council has taken the decision to move forward with the sale of the building ... and the Club has now accepted an offer in excess of the sale price [£4 million]."

SCGB member Helen O'brien comments (17 June) ...

"Diversify asset base? Surely, in London, property is king!"

SCGB member John Hine comments (1 July) ...

"same as the fiasco surrounding surrendering the lease on Eaton Square. More extremely muddled thinking and most unprofessional at best. You have let us down again. I wonder who gains this time?
I expect this comment will be removed as all negative comments have been so far. Why not resign?"


Of course ... the reported downturn in the London property market since the 'Brexit' vote on 23 June ...

[FT: https://next.ft.com/content/b17b4250-427f-11e6-9b66-0712b3873ae1 BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36708851 ]

... gives a fresh perspective to the SCGB's acceptance of a £4m+ offer. But was a cast iron deal struck? The property continues to be advertised, as of today ...

For Sale
£4,000,000.00
The White House, 57 - 63 Church Road
Office, Offices , 7705 Sq Ft


https://propertylink.estatesgazette.com/property-details/6130237-the-white-house-57-63-church-road
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@Davina Goldballs, Why not phone up and ask for a viewing?
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I realise that I am in danger of feeding the troll again, but David there is so much in what you have posted in the last few days that I do not believe and should be challenged. After trawling the internet you have found a posting on the welove2ski message board from someone called Ian de Haan that suits your agenda.

Firstly if you wish to bring up the subject of past accidents, even if one of them is some time ago, there is no need to name the unfortunate victims. We have no idea who reads these boards and to see the names repeated particularly in the context that you invoke them, could be upsetting to next of kin and friends. Stating the year and location is more than sufficient if you must keep bringing this up. In any case as you know the ski club leaders were exonerated by the Swiss courts in both cases and I hope the families of the bereaved can take some small comfort, from knowing that official investigations decided that no negligence was involved.

Ian de Haan says that he attended the reps course in 1989/90. I attended it in December 1991 where Fred Harper, Martin Epp and Serge Lambert were also conducting the off piste training. I was a rep for twelve weeks in 1992. Subsequently I have been on various holidays led by Fred, Martin and Serge and that involves spending plenty of time in the bar and at dinner in the hotels with them and obviously knowing that I was an ex rep, meant that they were probably more forthcoming with the likes of me when the topic of repping cropped up. I have never heard any of them say anything like that the comments attributed to them by Ian de Haan.

In the evening lectures the 1989 accident was discussed. Fred and Martin expressed repeatedly and in very strong terms what responsibilities were involved in leading off piste and how we should be very much aware of our own limitations, but they never suggested that we should not do it.

For those that don’t know, when Fred died of cancer some years ago he received obituaries in the mainstream media for his work regarding mountain safety with regard to both skiing and climbing. If he was really opposed to the ski club leading off piste I feel sure he would have used his considerable influence in the British ski scene to try and stop it. Martin and Serge are Swiss nationals who worked for the ski club for many years. Martin has written books on avalanche safety and outdoor survival and like Fred was obsessive about safety. To suggest that the likes of Fred, Martin and Serge would continue to train ski club leaders, just because if they did not someone less competent might do so, is an insult to them as professionals and an insult to them as individuals.

You mentioned the ski club leader who died in 1996. As far as I know he was not acting in any ski club capacity when that happed. Lots of people be they ski club leaders, ski instructors or mountain guides will carry out different risk assessments when they are skiing in their own time, compared to when they are leading members or clients. That is true of guides and instructors in many sports. If a tragedy occurs it is no reflection on their training or their capability to lead people when an acting in an official capacity.

You want to know who conducts the off piste leaders course training now. I agree with Gerry that there is no need to name them as I am well aware of the lack of respect you show for other peoples’ privacy. Actually I probably know them better than Gerry because I have skied with them on average two weeks a season for the past eight years. I can assure you that they are very well qualified indeed to conduct the leaders training.
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After my previous post I thought I would mention the St Anton situation separately. It is ridiculous David, for you to suggest that there was no ski club rep in St Anton since the 1980s. You were still a member until a few years ago and the knowledge that there was a rep continuously in the resort until about ten years ago was available to all members.

I last skied with a rep in St Anton in 2001 although I did not realise that repping went on for another five years. Even in 2001, for the previous two seasons the rep/leader was restricted to leading on piste only. To my amazement they could not even take members on the marked itinerary routes although they are shown on the maps and the display boards as well as being avalanche protected.

The objection to a ski club leader in St Anton has nothing to do with safety but all to do with the parochial attitude of the ski school. I love the place for the skiing and have been there many times but despite it being internationally famous in the world of skiing, it is incredibly insular. You only have to read the threads about the ski shop cartel in St Anton to appreciate that.

I recall skiing with a rep in 1988 and being told then how the ski school was objecting to the ski club leading there. In those days the Arlberg ski school had a complete monopoly and were trying to protect their patch as they viewed it, much as the French have done.

The ski club latterly owed its continued presence in the resort largely to a lady called Lilli Stein who was part of a St Anton hotelier family. The ski club has often relied on its champions in certain resorts and Lilli was one of the best. She was still acting as a greeter in the Hotel Sport in 2001 by which time she must have been about eighty. You would walk in the lobby and this very petite frail looking old lady would be standing there to shake hands. It was only when she died that the ski school stopped the ski club leading there. To think that the macho members of the Arlberg ski school were afraid of a little old lady.

As I said it had nothing to do with safety.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Davina Goldballs wrote:
Gerry wrote:
You ski off-piste on your own


Just another lie. What the hell do you know - you've never skied with me in your life.
You must concede Gerry that the old boy has a point there. I'm given to understand he doesn't ski at all.
Bloody generous of him in the circumstances to dedicate so much of his time to the club. He has my full support. The last thing we want is people thinking that skiing is about having a good time.
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
richjp wrote:


Firstly if you wish to bring up the subject of past accidents, even if one of them is some time ago, there is no need to name the unfortunate victims. We have no idea who reads these boards and to see the names repeated particularly in the context that you invoke them, could be upsetting to next of kin and friends. Stating the year and location is more than sufficient if you must keep bringing this up.


Yes, I wish he wouldn't do that. I believe he does because he thinks he can make everything google searchable. It's like he just won't let them rest in peace.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Thank you Richip !
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
richjp wrote:
After my previous post I thought I would mention the St Anton situation separately. It is ridiculous David, for you to suggest that there was no ski club rep in St Anton since the 1980s. You were still a member until a few years ago and the knowledge that there was a rep continuously in the resort until about ten years ago was available to all members.

I last skied with a rep in St Anton in 2001 although I did not realise that repping went on for another five years. Even in 2001, for the previous two seasons the rep/leader was restricted to leading on piste only. To my amazement they could not even take members on the marked itinerary routes although they are shown on the maps and the display boards as well as being avalanche protected.

The objection to a ski club leader in St Anton has nothing to do with safety but all to do with the parochial attitude of the ski school. I love the place for the skiing and have been there many times but despite it being internationally famous in the world of skiing, it is incredibly insular. You only have to read the threads about the ski shop cartel in St Anton to appreciate that.

I recall skiing with a rep in 1988 and being told then how the ski school was objecting to the ski club leading there. In those days the Arlberg ski school had a complete monopoly and were trying to protect their patch as they viewed it, much as the French have done.

The ski club latterly owed its continued presence in the resort largely to a lady called Lilli Stein who was part of a St Anton hotelier family. The ski club has often relied on its champions in certain resorts and Lilli was one of the best. She was still acting as a greeter in the Hotel Sport in 2001 by which time she must have been about eighty. You would walk in the lobby and this very petite frail looking old lady would be standing there to shake hands. It was only when she died that the ski school stopped the ski club leading there. To think that the macho members of the Arlberg ski school were afraid of a little old lady.

As I said it had nothing to do with safety.


Any money you like, in a few weeks or months, Goldballs with repeat his lie that the Club has been out of St Anton for 30yrs.
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 Poster: A snowHead
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I see the in-tray has contributions from two correspondents - two of them identifying themselves (Gerry and richjp) and two who are communicating anonymously.
Let's dispose of the latter first ...

'Super Chap Great Bloke' ... I first skied in 1959, so have been skiing in the decades 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, 2000s and 2010s (I make that 7 decades, in Scandinavia, Scotland, England, the Alps, east and west America, Australia and Japan). Please ask me again in 2020 and we'll see if I continue in that decade.

'Scrumpy' ... got anything useful to say?

Gerry ... wants you to believe ... regarding the representation of the SCGB in St Anton ...
"The director of the local ski school didn't want the Ski Club there, so that was it, invitation withdrawn. Not sure where you get the 30 years from though, as the Club were there up until 2006."

Given that Gerry Aitken has been a director of the SCGB for 7 of the past 16 years, you'd think he'd know the truth. Come on Gerry, search the records (instead of writing fairy stories). In which years, since 1980, has the SCGB had a rep posted in St Anton? I've some information from the St Anton tourist office this morning, so it'll be interesting to compare it with what you find out.

richjp ... call me a "troll" if it makes you feel better, but this kind of name-calling is very 'passé' and questionable on social media now. I have named specific skiers who have died in incidents involving SCGB reps/leaders, because these were real young people with lives ahead of them ... these fatalities (and other incidents involving serious injuries) should have influenced the Club's training and safety policies ... but the Club sticks (27 years later) with the assertion that it is right and proper for amateur 'leaders' to guide groups into off-piste terrain ... when all other authorities insist that this should be done by correctly-qualified instructors or professional ski guides.

You are well aware of the stark difference between the technical level of a BASI instructor qualified to teach off-piste ... and a SCGB 'leader' who has done a short course. I've remarked on previous occasions of the historical roots of this problem - the Ski Club essentially dissociated itself with Scottish skiing just as the mountains were being mechanised and popularised in the early 1960s. BASI (originally BAPSI) established itself ... without the SCGB's involvement, because the SCGB had very unwisely and snobbishly left the scene. The SCGB retreated to Belgravia and began its 50-60 years of decline and bumbling about. It should have raised its game.

You and Gerry dispute the evidence of Ian de Haan, but neither of you were there. There is every reason to believe that the 1989 fatality was an immediate wake-up call (albeit temporary) for the SCGB. This was a shocking and avoidable incident. I was technical editor of the SCGB magazine 'Ski Survey' when this happened (and had been for 5 years) when this happened. The 2007 fatality should have been another serious warning to the Club. And then there was the other death we know so little about. And the rumours about a 4th fatality, in France. There is every reason to believe that Ian de Haan's training in 1989 was exactly as he describes ... a direct professional response to a very serious challenge to the SCGB's way of thinking ... and that Caroline Stuart-Taylor's departure from the SCGB to start Freshtracks was a realisation that the off-piste ski guiding/leadership role is best performed by qualified professionals only.

It's time you guys finally woke up and smelled the coffee - it's been standing around for 27 years.


richjp wrote:


I last skied with a rep in St Anton in 2001 although I did not realise that repping went on for another five years.


It didn't. Ask the St Anton tourist office. You've been Gerried !
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
you're on the wine early today David Goldsmith
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Fine, I was out by 5yrs. Genuine mistake.
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Seeing as the SCGB is such a mendacious entity conducting exceptionally fraudulent activity and lying to it's members, possibly HMRC and maybe even the International Criminal Court in the Hague, I can't understand why this isn't covered perpetually by Anne Robinson on Watchdog, regularly featuring in Private Eye or indeed have it's own sub-forum on Mumsnet. Maybe DG needs to make them aware as they've clearly missed some sort of major scoop; I'm sure they'd be exceptionally interested in what he's uncovered. What aren't SFO involved too is what I want to know

Does anyone other than Bold Vaginal Lads have any interest at all in the stuff in this thread, other than to marvel at the sheer dogged-ness ?

There was a thread on a well-known (to cycling fans) forum about Armstrong and his drug taking that ran on, and on, and on and that too was similarly perpetuated mainly by a small group of people who seemed to feel the same degree of bitterness that is exhibited on here
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"You are well aware of the stark difference between the technical level of a BASI instructor qualified to teach off-piste ... and a SCGB 'leader' who has done a short course".

IS the technical level of instructors irrelevant as SCGB leaders don't teach ?....
Does having a Basi instructor LVL 3 say, mean they are better skiers than SGB leaders ? ...
Are there SCGB leaders who are BASI lvl 3 and who have their off piste qualifications ?
What is the difference in content of the Basi off piste qualification to that of the SCGB leader course ?
Ski guides are not necessarily "good" skiers, good skiers are not necessarily ski guides ...
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Re St Anton. Pretty sure that I skied with David Ross and Olivier Gorden who were acting as SCGB reps at St Anton, in 92.
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
dsoutar wrote:
... Does anyone other than Bold Vaginal Lads have any interest at all in the stuff in this thread, other than to marvel at the sheer dogged-ness ?

There was a thread .... perpetuated mainly by a small group of people who seemed to feel the same degree of bitterness that is exhibited on here
It's occasionally mildly amusing to watch two grown men gnaw childishly at each other in public. I realize it's sad, but I don't think we're actually encouraging them. They do seem to deserve each other and their misery.

There was a thread with similar silly people on rec.skiing.alpine which ended quite badly, from what I recall. I wonder what their mothers would think, and I hope they don't have any children to embarrass.

Guys, grow up, get a life, move on, get over it. Maybe even go skiing. Obviously do not vote or breed under any circumstances.
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I repped in St Anton in 98/99 and 99/2000. That may have been the last season, or there was possibly one more.

We were not supposed to ski off-piste or on itinerary routes without hiring a guide from the Arlberg ski school, which we were encouraged to do twice a week. We were told it was for safety reasons, but we felt that it was as much to do with getting more work for the ski school. Members often baulked at the extra expense, however, so it was hard to keep to this plan.

A particular rep, whose name I'd better not mention, used to flout the rules about off-piste ski-ing, which upset the head of ski school, in particular, and the Club was banished from the resort soon after. That also co-incided with the death of Lilli Stein, as mentioned in a previous post, who had been a great supporter / sponsor of the Club in resort.

A pity, as it was a great resort to rep in, and the hospitality provided by the Sport Hotel (meals / office hour) and Haus Elizabeth (accommodation) were very warm and welcoming.

Anyway, that's my version of events as I recall them.
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Regarding, St Anton, it would help if the SCGB 'loyalists' hereabout would identify which years exactly the Club has had a rep/leader stationed in the resort since 1980. Stephen Buck's comments above - along with the information from the St Anton tourist office - suggest that the Club reinstated its presence in the resort during the late 1990s and a year or two later ... because my recollection (as above) is that there was no consistent presence there in the 1980s and earlier in the 1990s.

The following media reports of the past 24 hours might assist in understanding why the safety and ski school authorities in St Anton (where avalanche history is substantial and notorious) might be sceptical of essentially unqualified people leading groups across its off-piste terrain. Can an unqualified Austrian perform similar tasks to an 'SCGB-trained' leader/rep ... or is this work in Austria (or Switzerland, or France) restricted to qualified instructors and guides?

The Ski Club of Great Brexit (if that's the general spirit right now) is long past its prime of being some sort of international authority in skiing, posting its reps in 'colonial outposts' and generally being able to tell 'johnny foreigner' what to do. We live in a world of international fraternity and respect of law, safety and professionalism. There are common wisdoms about things like mountain risks and how to mitigate them. For context ...

A 25-year-old German instructor has just been convicted for the death of a 14-year-old ski racer, taken in a group into avalanche-prone terrain in the Zillertal last January ...

https://www.tz.de/muenchen/stadt/bewaehrung-skitrainer-nach-tod-eines-14-jaehrigen-6548311.html
https://www.ovb-online.de/bayern/14-jaehriger-verschuettet-stirbt-lawine-trainer-verurteilt-nach-6549843.html
https://www.facebook.com/groups/BASIMembers/permalink/10153554319260826/
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@stephen buck,

Thank you for your post. I don't recall your name but it is possible I might have skied a day or two with you in St Anton.

I definitely skied with a rep there in 2001. I am certain about that year because it was the year St Anton hosted the world championships and we arrived just as they were ending.

I heard those rumours about probably the same rep as you but of course without knowing the full facts it just speculation. The trouble with rumours is that once they start they spread and can get exaggerated. If it is true then you would have thought if there had been willingness on both the part of the ski club and the resort that the issue could have been resolved.
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