 Poster: A snowHead
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Doesn't this in some respects come down to the aspect of 'being paid for or paying for'? I know when I have been with UK based TO, they mostly provide guiding or hosting without charging extra. The host or guide is I am assuming not being specifically paid to do the job (ie they are not employed as a guide or host but as a cook, cleaner, driver etc) they just do this as part of their other duties in keeping the customers happy and engaged, and of course I am sure they do it in some part because they may or may not get
free lunches
kickbacks
tips - but that's for another thread.
But if this simply to stop people without the appropriate knowledge and skill turning up at the bottom of the mountain and touting for business and thus putting people in danger then I am all for that.
I also wouldn't see a problem with a basic test of mountain knowledge, understanding how to get all around the mountain without resorting to looking at piste maps and what to do if a particular lift or run is closed, lift opening and close info, emergency contact action and stuff like that and if it was set at an appropriate level and easy to administer and police then why not.
One of this issues with this approach though is where a client turns up and says - "I can ski to the requried standard" but then finds themselves on the other side of the mountain unable to keep up. I guess this is where the ability to 'teach' (and I use that term guardedly in this respect) comes in as they could potentially have assessed the skiers levels on the first few runs and advised them that their standard wasn't perhaps appropriate for the group.
To paraphrase an example used earlier in the thread, and thinking back to an apprentice episode a while back. You wouldn't be happy with a paid or even unpaid London tour guide if he didn't know how to get from the London eye to the Houses of Parliament would you.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Saint wrote: |
Not trying to get out of this but there's the problem. Accident happens, hospital, get home, think, contact lawyer start process against company. cCompany's insurance company takes over A year maybe more expert witnesses etc. Settles out of court (so as not to make any law on the matter) no statistics!
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In all seriousness... do really believe deep down, that the ESF are actively stalking ski hosts and notifying the Authorities of their practice because they are worried about the safety of British Ski Tourists?
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eng_ch, there used to be a cut-off age for not having to take the ET. Has that changed?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| spud wrote: |
| In all seriousness... do really believe deep down, that the ESF are actively stalking ski hosts and notifying the Authorities of their practice because they are worried about the safety of British Ski Tourists? |
They couldn't give a flying canard could they?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Not quite a digression, but why is a ski instruction qualification so hard, expensive and lengthy a process?
Surely a number of the arguments on here about ski instruction being a career are at least partially predicated upon it being so much of a personal investment to get into?
And frankly, IMO, an excessively expensive, difficult and time consuming set of qualifications. If you have a degree, you can become qualified to teach science in the UK in a year.
The last time I had a conversation about it, full cert ESF was about 5 years. Not to mention the level of skill required to pass the ET.
Is it not mad?
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Interested to know how many of the ESF instructors have actually taken a Eurotest or did they bypass it on grandfather rights?
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under a new name, we wouldn't want to stop the ski instructor course gravy train would we?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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under a new name, someone said to me at the ski show that the cost of going from zero to BASI Level 4 is in the same ball park as becoming a commercial airline pilot (when you factor in all the travel, accommodation, gear etc). It's no wonder they feel the need to charge what they charge per hour.
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| Quote: |
One of this issues with this approach though is where a client turns up and says - "I can ski to the requried standard" but then finds themselves on the other side of the mountain unable to keep up
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We used to avoid this unfortunate position by taking the guests down the top pitch of a red run which was actually really rather steep.
Made it very easy to tell who would be up for what... 
Spyderman, clearly not!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Spyderman, Bode Swiller, it also occurs to me that there have been posts discussing the idea of a ski instruction career as though this is a historical concept.
I perceive that it's rather a new idea. Previously (and quite probably still), most instructors would be teaching skiing only to fill in the winter after which they'd return to their "real" jobs - e.g. farming, sheep shagging, etc.
Also, I can't possibly imagine how one would consider ski instruction in the UK a career 
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Thu 22-11-12 16:40; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| eng_ch, there used to be a cut-off age for not having to take the ET. Has that changed? |
I thought it was only under grandfather rights, those who qualified before the ET came in didn't have the qualification taken away and were not required to do the ET. I can think of a couple of snowheads who are struggling with or giving up the final hurdle of L4 or equivalent because they feel they have little chance of passing the ET because they are too old (sufficiently slower because of age or entered the system as an adult/career change so no background of racing since they could walk). If there were a cut-off age for not having to take the ET, I'm sure they'd be very happy!
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| Spyderman wrote: |
Saint,
If a TO didn't offer hosting I can't see the cost go down, normally it's the ski host that does things like airport transfers, arranging lift tickets and lessons, excursions, etc. They'd still need the member of staff. |
Yep as I always understood the hosting came about so that the TO's had something for the transfer Reps to do over the week and to earn their wages.
Saint If feel your argument is beginning to clutch at straws, are the slopes going to be any different, safer with no Ski hosts? No. Are they going to be any safer with trained hosts? No. Because skiers are going always have incidents and accidents.
Most injuries happen on blue/green runs.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Dwarf Vader wrote: |
Yep as I always understood the hosting came about so that the TO's had something for the transfer Reps to do over the week and to earn their wages.
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I don't think so, I'm sure most TO's would easily find them something useful to do during the week. There's always things to be done.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| bobmcstuff wrote: |
| Dwarf Vader wrote: |
Yep as I always understood the hosting came about so that the TO's had something for the transfer Reps to do over the week and to earn their wages.
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I don't think so, I'm sure most TO's would easily find them something useful to do during the week. There's always things to be done. |
Name them?
When I was not hosting the only thing to do (officially) was a bit of maintenance (which if you kept on top of was not much of a problem) or (unofficially)sit around drinking and eating. If not free skiing.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Kruisler> Maybe we should ask Nixmap what he thinks of that?
very good!
| agw wrote: |
Actually, what do the French media (satirical or otherwise) make of this issue? Could any francophone snowheads tell us? |
I've heard nothing. I suspect that the Dauphiné Libéré will write an article similar to the Planetski piece, but from a xenophobic French perspective, when the court hearing comes up.
Antoine Chandelier, their Chamonix correspondent, didn't know that BASI were allowed to work in France and referred to them as "les moniteurs marrons" - Kruisler may have a good translation. Fake instructors maybe?
As some background. Most French people think the ESF is a part of the Government like their local school. They are unaware that anyone else can work as a ski instructor in France and would probably be shocked to hear that any non French person is legally allowed to work in the country. At least doing anything more responsible than cleaning toilets.
If you ever hand anyone in a French Personnel dept. your degree certificates or other qualifications they will generally hold them on the corner like they've picked up a baby's nappy full of fresh, steaming and very stinky poo. Said certificate will then get dropped into a filing cabinet like an old condom into the loo. Never utter the word "equivalence" to a French HR person, they will split in 2 laughing at you. But how can it be equivalent, they will say with a straight face, it is not from a French university. We 'ave standards 'ere you know!
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Thu 22-11-12 16:57; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Dwarf Vader wrote: |
| Most injuries happen on blue/green runs. |
and they will happen with or without a host nearby. I'd argue that skiing with someone with experience of the runs is more than likely safer than going out to discover places yourself.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| Dwarf Vader wrote: |
| Most injuries happen on blue/green runs. |
and they will happen with or without a host nearby. I'd argue that skiing with someone with experience of the runs is more than likely safer than going out to discover places yourself. |
but Bode, what if an 18 person ESF snake comes across an 18 person TO snake?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| davidof wrote: |
| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| Dwarf Vader wrote: |
| Most injuries happen on blue/green runs. |
and they will happen with or without a host nearby. I'd argue that skiing with someone with experience of the runs is more than likely safer than going out to discover places yourself. |
but Bode, what if an 18 person ESF snake comes across an 18 person TO snake? |
Funny thing is we were told never snake your guests and if they try to snake to tell them NO.
This was because the moment the ESF spots a snake they think instruction and your in for a heap of trouble.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| Dwarf Vader wrote: |
| Most injuries happen on blue/green runs. |
and they will happen with or without a host nearby. I'd argue that skiing with someone with experience of the runs is more than likely safer than going out to discover places yourself. |
How do you know that your guide has experience of the runs? they may have got there the week before?
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| Dwarf Vader wrote: |
Funny thing is we were told never snake your guests and if they try to snake to tell them NO.
This was because the moment the ESF spots a snake they think instruction and your in for a heap of trouble. |
phew I had visions of them linking like a double helix and creating some weird new life form.
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So this season then, when out skiing with a group of mates we just need 'Ski like a Goat Hoodies' and ski around in a long snake 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Boredsurfing, I like your thinking....
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| davidof wrote: |
| but Bode, what if an 18 person ESF snake comes across an 18 person TO snake? |
I'd like to see that. Snakes, ducks, goats, this one has the lot.
If they were serious about safety they would remove terrain parks and especially the half pipe.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
If they were serious about safety they would remove terrain parks and especially the half pipe. |
You've been speaking to the chief surgeon at Sallanches hospital I see, he said the same thing.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Dwarf Vader wrote: |
| davidof wrote: |
| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| Dwarf Vader wrote: |
| Most injuries happen on blue/green runs. |
and they will happen with or without a host nearby. I'd argue that skiing with someone with experience of the runs is more than likely safer than going out to discover places yourself. |
but Bode, what if an 18 person ESF snake comes across an 18 person TO snake? |
Funny thing is we were told never snake your guests and if they try to snake to tell them NO.
This was because the moment the ESF spots a snake they think instruction and your in for a heap of trouble. |
Just had an idea for a new rule -
"Any group of four or more British skiers should form a snake when in sight of ESF personnel"
It'll drive them mad!
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| blahblahblah wrote: |
How do you know that your guide has experience of the runs? they may have got there the week before? |
A ski host with a little bit of common sense to do the job and a reasonable skiing ability, could probably learn enough about a new resort within two days to get enough knowledge to keep the vast majority of chalet clients happy.
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You know it makes sense.
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davidof, blimey, there are no secrets! Actually, it's well-known across the entire snowy globe that THE number one cause of serious injury is going inverted off a kicker. But, of course, all big resorts make promotional capital out of their terrain parks and they promote them to the very demograph that gets helicoptered out of them. Nasty, cynical stuff. Hosting holiday skiers down green and blue pistes just doesn't come close to the carnage.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Dwarf Vader wrote: |
| This was because the moment the ESF spots a snake they think instruction and your in for a heap of trouble. |
Brilliant. Thread over.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Bode Swiller, Almost every medical pro I've ever spoken to on a chairlift says the same thing & ski patrol seem to love powder days by comparison with "park days" as blowing stuff up is loads more fun than putting people on spinal boards.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| davidof, blimey, there are no secrets! Actually, it's well-known across the entire snowy globe that THE number one cause of serious injury is going inverted off a kicker. But, of course, all big resorts make promotional capital out of their terrain parks and they promote them to the very demograph that gets helicoptered out of them. Nasty, cynical stuff. Hosting holiday skiers down green and blue pistes just doesn't come close to the carnage. |
and it's going to get worse, even a small resort like Montalbert is having a 'Big Air' bag this coming season, at least the ambulance bay isn't too far away!
However, I suspect a 'piste rescue' will still be required to get to the ambulance.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Dwarf Vader wrote: |
| This was because the moment the ESF spots a snake they think instruction and your in for a heap of trouble. |
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Boredsurfing, Air bags are probably safer until a) people don't get up enough speed to hit them or b) they blow away and take out a chairlift (It has happened  )
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Look at one of my previous posts to see what I think of the Eurotest as it stands.
I have never claimed that there have been any fatalities or any serious injuries that have involved the Gendarmes being involved, if it's just broken bones the pisteurs don't call the Gendarmes, and the records just get filed. But when you think about it, what was put in place before there was a Nanny state must surely be true now. The sport has not changed that much, lets not forget most people who went skiing 30 odd years ago were much better prepared physically and mentally for the experience than they are now.
One of the things I like about Snowheads is that people do think and do have experience, thats why I think this is about safety because others can't or don't have.
Forget the helmet issue (and I will wear one for the first time outside competition for either new year or February school holidays.)
Just because your brakes have always worked for 3 years when the car is new doesn't mean to say they will tomorrow, which is why there is an MOT, it prevents accidents (how many we can't tell now).
The French have certain minimum standards which were put in place to prevent unnecessary accidents, I say they have worked and the more we have TO hosts working the way they do the more accidents will happen. It is an unsafe situation, just the fact it hasn't happened yet or at least not been reported as a major incident doesn't mean to say it won't.
This is not about instructors and their relative abilities, it's about nearly untrained young people being paid to be in charge of others in the mountains. Potentially it's a version of the Lyme Bay accident all over again. How much better if it doesn't. Even if some people and some tour companies are pissed off.
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Saint,
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the more we have TO hosts working the way they do the more accidents will happen
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Why do you think a group following a TO host is more likely to have an accident than an unescorted group?
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| blahblahblah wrote: |
| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| Dwarf Vader wrote: |
| Most injuries happen on blue/green runs. |
and they will happen with or without a host nearby. I'd argue that skiing with someone with experience of the runs is more than likely safer than going out to discover places yourself. |
How do you know that your guide has experience of the runs? they may have got there the week before? |
You wouldn't, which is why I don't see a big issue with a basic 'ahem' test of local knowledge - ie which red's are reds which blacks are red's, which greens are blues (insert local piste gradings as you wish) and everything in between plus a decent understanding of the map of said resort you are 'hosting' In my experience there is always a couple of people in the group who know the mountain better than the host because they've probably been coming for several years. And this is where we split between follow your mates and follow the 'tested' host leader.
I'd wager most of us at some time in our skiing lives have been told by a friend or partner they could do a run, only to find themselves with toes curled gripping the insides of their boots at a standstill on the side of a piste, wishing they had said no....
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Of course we could do what they do in the States arrest you if you go off-piste, arrest you if you ski parallel in a slow skiing zone call anything inside the"ski area" on piste and blame it on the skier if they drown in a tree hole or fall of an unmarked cliff that you just traverse to!
Off for a beer (or 2)
Have fun.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Personally I would have absolutely no issue with a qualification for ski hosts to ensure competence. The problem is that nowhere seems to have any qualifications that are not instructor qualifications.
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| Quote: |
The problem is that nowhere seems to have any qualifications that are not instructor qualifications.
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somebody mentioned a French qualification, for people like teachers with groups of kids. I see a lot of French school groups out with teachers who are by no means whizzy skiers, but solid and competent - it happens every week. I imagine those teachers have a stificate of some sort. My son in law did school ski trips and has some kind of Mountain Leader qualification. don't think any sailing club in this country would allow anybody unqualified and uninsured to lead a group of kids even on very safe, shallow, non-tidal waters though unqualified parents might help.
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FAQ
