 Poster: A snowHead
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You're all mad, the lot of you 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I missed it! Can somebody steer me in the right direction?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Roy Hockley, Take the motorway to Albertville, the dual carriageway to Moutiers and the RN 90 through Bourg St. Maurice to La Rosière.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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cathy, I had almost been missing him....
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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stoatsbrother, you've got to be quick to catch him these days - it's the second time he's been deleted from this thread, that I know of....
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cathy, ah ha - Masque's old nemesis...
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Dont know who Mr L is but he left Masque in bad shape and it was fun to read/know
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Cyber kneecapping...........................if completely factual. Seemed honest enough.
John.
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Well I think that proves the mods don't agree with Masque suggesting the whole thread be deleted and the OP banned.
We can be sure now they are not just ignoring the thread.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| jbob wrote: |
| This whole thread needs pulling. |
My post was trimmed, I have no problem with that, but I wouldn't want anyone to get the impression that I have any issues with Nixmap's OP at all on the contrary, I think it was fine, however the subsequent vitriol from one snowhead I did think was totally OTT and needed to be consigned to a cyberbin.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| alex heney wrote: |
We can be sure now they are not just ignoring the thread.
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I should imagine they're paying fairly close attention
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| jbob wrote: |
| jbob wrote: |
| This whole thread needs pulling. |
My post was trimmed, I have no problem with that, but I wouldn't want anyone to get the impression that I have any issues with Nixmap's OP at all on the contrary, I think it was fine, however the subsequent vitriol from one snowhead I did think was totally OTT and needed to be consigned to a cyberbin. |
IM VERY HO, both Masque and nixmap contributed positively to the thread. some contributions were perhaps a tad more colourful than others, but it was all good (and interesting) debate.
Only David L rained on the parade, so the mods made a good call.
(for a change) 
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| pam w wrote: |
| unless he has a quite extraordinary apartment he certainly couldn't rent it out for the cost of employing legions of proper cooks, child minders etc, especially as unless he was providing them with accommodation they'd have to be paid a living wage. |
Pam you might be right. I was only doing quick mental arithmatic.
Say I employed a cook, cleaner and baby sitter for 20 an hour for 15 weekends for a whole standard day both days, That adds up to about 15k
Im guessing the apartment would rent for somewhere between 12k and 20k depending on terms. (actually I have no Idea)
THat puts us about even,but it is also overstaffing to the point of insanity.
Theres the weekends we dont turn up becuase we are staying in our friends places, going to a party in town, dont want to ski.
Holidays of course make up for that, in some sense, but in another sense not ... becuse everyone has more time.
Christmas is of course, is just hard work for anyone over 12 years old, but I think thats a global phenomenon, doesnt matter what you are doing or where you are. Dont blame me blame Santa.
I could instead have 8 cooks 8 cleaners and 8 babysittter all working for and hour each instead or variations on the theme.
Clearly that doesnt add up to a legion of 5000 people if you want to get technical but the point is made.
Alternatively I could staff it properly and end up with a tidy profit.
Trouble is, Im not sure exactly how many hours it would take to clean, other than how long it takes me and Mrs M to do the same thing.
Or how much baby sitting there is to do, I guess it depends on the snow / weather and if you wanted to take them skiing instead.
Last year of course, the powder was, simply too deep on many days for them to venture out, and the big snowfalls happend a lot on days we were there.
I would imagine its frustrating to the average snowhead babysitter to sit and watch a 50 year snow storm pass you by. especially so if you cant take turns.
It maybe the same this season, who knows. I hope it is.
And before you even ask.. with the kind of abusive behaviour are you really surprised that applicants choose not to enter the fray and remain private..
You think it me thats stopping them? or more likely the hectoring and likely endlessly pedantic cross examination they would recieve. (I dont mean you Pam, your comments have real merit, I just dont happen to agree with you)
Nix.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| alex_heney wrote: |
Well I think that proves the mods don't agree with Masque suggesting the whole thread be deleted and the OP banned.
We can be sure now they are not just ignoring the thread. |
Why do you even bother?!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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No idea about Swiss law but under English law 'offer, acceptance and consideration' is needed for a legally binding contract and at the moment I am not sure there is any consideration, not even a peppercorn is being passed over as consideration. It would be interesting to see what kind of contractual arrangement this actually constitutes ? Employment for free rent?, lease of property for for free work ?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Even if there were a contract, and it were legally enforceable, who is going to enforce it, and how - and indeed why? Chances are the average snowbum isn't worth suing - his only asset being his skis; snowbum couldn't sue nixmap for anything much. If they don't get on, snowbum will leave job. Easy as!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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rayscoops, tut tut, you know consideration doesnt have to be cash  I feel like quoting Joan Rivers on the 'cost of a Gucci handbag' but ... better not!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| rayscoops wrote: |
| No idea about Swiss law but under English law 'offer, acceptance and consideration' is needed for a legally binding contract and at the moment I am not sure there is any consideration, |
There is clearly a "consideration" in the form of accommodation.
Almost all contracts will have the "consideration" in one direction being non-monetary. Some have that in both directions, which would be the case here.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| alex_heney wrote: |
| Some have that in both directions, which would be the case here. |
So I wonder what happens with things like home-exchange.com, I mean if you swap chalets for a month and nominally you come out better off, once you reduce everything to numbers. You think theres a tax liability? I mean theoretically theres an exchange of 'considerations' and someone may be nominally better off as a result, and therefore getting benefit.... or do you think the value if the exchange is deemed to be equal or of zero worth.
Acutally I was thinking about, doing a chalet swap on here, just for some variety during the season.
Sounds like fun.
Nix.
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nixmap, barter makes a lot of sense when taxes are high.
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laundryman, but will the Swiss Feds barter with nixmap for the payment of his fine for employing illegals
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Ski all season (2010) in the Swiss Alps - For Free?
Cool 
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Barter transactions are definitely taxable on the recipient.
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/bimmanual/BIM33325.htm
laundryman's observation makes it quite clear why.
| Quote: |
| thinking of doing a chalet swap |
Would you be taking your staff with you, or would the staff have to suffer some less perfect children than your own? 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| James the Last wrote: |
| Would you be taking your staff with you |
I dont know, Its only an idea, youd have to look at it on a case by case basis, and I certainly wouldnt do it without asking them first, as they are not exactly 'Staff' in the first place.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| James the Last wrote: |
| Would you be taking your staff with you? |
Is nixmap a wizard as well now?
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| Quote: |
So I wonder what happens with things like home-exchange.com
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well that's a completely different thing, isn't it? It's no kind of working relationship. You live in my house for a while, I live in yours. But if you come and live in mine and have to be there when I ask, prepare my meals as requested, keep my house clean, tidy away after supper and baby sit when I pop down the pub for a drink, then you're an employee. The dividing line between someone acting as an employee and someone who is a "self employed contractor" is not easily defined, and depends on a range of tests - the answer to which has caught out more than one employer who thought he could dispense with the hassle of having employees. Not to mention the employees who thought they'd be better off dispensing with the tedium of having their pay taxed before they got it.
But that's in the UK. No idea about Switzerland.
nixmap, if your staff apartment would rent for £20K for the season, in a small resort, then it must be pretty ritzy. I think my son rented one in the middle of Val D'Isere for a season for £5k. It was very small, but two of them shared it and took in lodgers when they were feeling hard up. Rents in the low season (the bulk of the year in most resorts) are peanuts.
I think your calculations on staff costs are optimistic.
People doing end of let cleaning in apartments like ours, on a commercial basis, charge around 50 euros, which doesn't include any laundry or making up any beds. That's a 40 sq metre apartment. I think you would find any commercial agency would consider it a full day's workfor one person to pick up the fresh laundry, completely clean a whole chalet, strip the beds, put fresh linen on, and take the dirty stuff to the laundry. You'd also need to pay the laundry bill itself, of course.
It might take you or your wife only an hour to cook the supper, but you won't find anyone willing to come and be paid for one hour (about £12 an hour, it would be in UK) to cook your dinner. Any more than you could pay a cleaner to just come in for an hour.
I reckon that to have someone come in and do a thorough clean and change beds once a week, and have a cook for a few days a week would cost not much less than 300 a week. Maybe more if you used an agency. And it would leave you with a lot of time with no help there at all. Then you'd need to add baby sitting/baby minding costs on top.
Two people working from 5 pm - 11 pm Friday, 0730 - 2130 Saturday and Sunday and a couple of hours tidying up Monday morning have, at the less than handsome wage of £6 an hour, earned over £430
That should be more than enough labour to pay their rent before they even start working 7 day weeks in the school holidays.
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You know it makes sense.
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Alex, Argenterre, but nothing is physically changing hands ? My reference to the peppercorn rent was deliberate in that consideration in that case was a 'peppercorn', I.e. Something physical of value was passed from one party to the other, in this case a service is being provided but no money or ownership of an item, even as small as a peppercorn is passing from one person to another. There is obviously an agreement of sorts, but whether it is specifically a 'contract' is unclear to me
But what do I know ....
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| rayscoops wrote: |
Alex, Argenterre, but nothing is physically changing hands ? My reference to the peppercorn rent was deliberate in that consideration in that case was a 'peppercorn', I.e. Something physical of value was passed from one party to the other, in this case a service is being provided but no money or ownership of an item, even as small as a peppercorn is passing from one person to another. There is obviously an agreement of sorts, but whether it is specifically a 'contract' is unclear to me
But what do I know .... |
There is no need at all for anything physical to change hands.
You can contract for all sorts of services, where one party carries out a service for the other, with no physical element.
Or where the service carried out is physical (such as leaning) but still where nothing changes hands.
"Consideration" just means something which is valued by one or the other party.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| pam w wrote: |
| well that's a completely different thing, isn't it? |
I agree with you, but according to alex' post not.
| Quote: |
| There is clearly a "consideration" in the form of accommodation. Almost all contracts will have the "consideration" in one direction being non-monetary. Some have that in both directions, which would be the case here. |
Youll have to ask him.
| pam w wrote: |
| if your staff apartment would rent for £20K for the season, in a small resort, then it must be pretty ritzy |
£? no CHF and depends whether you do long term lets or weeklies for tourists or locals, but I am guessing, I know what my friends pay to stay in smaller apartments in flims and lenzerheide and im not a million miles out, for an slope location especially if the full facilites were available on weekdays. A lot of hassle though.
| pam w wrote: |
It might take you or your wife only an hour to cook the supper, but you won't find anyone willing to come and be paid for one hour (about £12 an hour, it would be in UK) to cook your dinner. Any more than you could pay a cleaner to just come in for an hour.
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true but thats largely down to travelling and convenience which doesnt apply in my case. besides the one hour example was for 8 chefs! Besides Mrs M mostly doesnt cook, I do, as I used to work in a restaurant, and it rarely takes more than 40 minutes, unless its a dinner party for more than six people.
| Quote: |
| I reckon that to have someone come in and do a thorough clean and change beds once a week, |
goodness youd change sheets after sleeping in them for 2 days.. even the swiss arent that fastidious.
| Quote: |
| have a cook for a few days a week would cost not much less than 300 a week. |
Give me a break, I could go to a restaurant for that.
| pam w wrote: |
| Two people working from 5 pm - 11 pm Friday. |
, err doing what exactly?
| pam w wrote: |
| 0730 - 2130 Saturday and Sunday.. |
....right um saluting every member of the family as the come in and out? I must have given you a very grim view of my house hold. More like one stays home for the morning tidying up, while the other does the ski skool run on a door to door bus or skis, then ski's for about 2 hours then does the run back with kids either on skis or on the bus..
Unless its a real bluebird day, probably at least one of us has had enough by late lunch time .
In which case child minding is no longer an issue. and both are free to ski or help prepare supper. which I guess might take another hour each or so if they really want to make a meal of it.
Sunday theres a very light or no supper as we like to get back to ZH for a schoolday bedtime. Mostly we are gone by six so I guess theres plenty of time to get ready for the next weekend, assuming we havent trashed our own place.
You see Pam, heres what I dont get, If it really took a couple, 6 + 11 + 11 + 2 hours EACH every weekend to look after a weekend home thats not much of a weekend is it? I certainly dont do anything like that amount of work, when we are there alone, and nor does Mrs M.
Now, in other posts Im cited examples where chalet hosts for commercial TO's are able to ski everyday despite having to look after 8-14 holiday makers, who wont lift a finger when things get a bit hectic.
Whats more they dont earn 430 a week on average either.
Im unclear how can you reconcile that with the estimates you give above ?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| nixmap wrote: |
| pam w wrote: |
| well that's a completely different thing, isn't it? |
I agree with you, but according to alex' post not. |
Not true.
It is indeed a completely different thing.
Which doesn't mean there is no contractual relationship, even then.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| alex_heney wrote: |
| "Consideration" just means something which is valued by one or the other party. |
Actually Treitel defines consideration (in the context of Patterson J in T v T) as " (i) the thing ... is of some value ... and (ii) it moves ... (from the plantiff in the specific case)
alex_heney, you may be right in general but I do not think it is quite so clear cut, this arrangement may be a 'conditional promise' - Nixmap offers to provide free accom on the condition that certain ill-defined works are done, or even the promise to do certain works for the condition of free accom, or even and 'agreement in principle only' - free accom if you do certain works to be defined as the season passes by.
Thomas v Thomas adds a related twist to it all too as referenced above.!
Further nixmap seems to be offering accom for some kind of undefined consideration, so accepting an offer whereby the consideration is unclear or not defined also adds a twist, what actually is the consideration ? every weekend, some weekends, one family, two families? it is all so woolly ! for example an offer is not actually classed as being accepted whereby the consideration is for a variable price, or in this case, a variable/undefined work load. The offer does not seem to have been made (or will be made) on specific terms, which is a fundamental requirement for a contract,
a legally binding agreement - certainly, but an enforceable 'contract' ? may be not due to the lack of certainty/vagueness of the offer/acceptance process, especially as the actions of the acceptance are also the consideration, hence my doubt about the validity of the consideration in this.
It is a contractual mess imv 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
It is a contractual mess imv
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A bit difficult to say, imv, when not a single person indulging in this speculation has seen the documentation. 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Oh god, it's all gone legal again...
There's only one way to settle this. Nixmap, I'll have to come out and visit...then I can report back on how luxurious your pad is, how clean it is (will pack my white gloves!), what the food's like, and whether you keep your 'helper' chained up or not.
I can do last week in Feb or first week in March - which would suit you least well
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ChrisWo,
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Oh god, it's all gone legal again...
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Hmm, sort of...
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What about a gentlemen's agreement.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Hurtle, sorry, maybe there should've been a "pseudo-" in there!
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ChrisWo, spot on!
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FAQ
Mr L is traxvax
the mind boggles. I mean I could imagine (vaguely) a physical service that might include squatting, kneeling or bending over, but 
