 Poster: A snowHead
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This, like all other avalanches which claim lives is absolutely tragic and very sad news.
However, the avalanche risk was and still is the maximum 5. I don't even go off piste with professional guides when it's 5. The reports indicate they were just off the piste and weren't using transceivers, I can't understand why anyone does this.
Very sad and completely avoidable given the circumstances.
If the SH PSB are reading this do NOT go off piste. We want you all to have a great time but to get home for Xmas.
The current forecast from Henry's Avalanche Talk is more of the same next week. I will be in Val d'isere next week and may have to stay on piste. The north facing slopes are the most dangerous due to the wind loading unstable snow on them. However It's unstable everywhere because the base has not been compacted by skiers skiing on it or due to compaction over time.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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pam w,
This particular tragedy appears to suggest the snowboarder higher up the slope triggered the avalanche on to the one below him.
This sort of thing, besides making me feel very sad, also makes me a little angry. Skiing with professional mountain guides "teaches" you how to minimise the risks. One way is making sure that you ski some slopes one at a time so that if one skier triggers a slide he doesn't bury the skiers lower down the slope.
I can accept the fact that I could kill myself in an avalanche. What I don't want is someone else killing me because they were skiing/boarding above me on an unstable slope. This often happens when people follow groups that are being led by professional mountain guides when they haven't paid to join that led group.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
I don't even go off piste with professional guides when it's 5.
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You should never go off-piste when it is 5.
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welshflyer, I read the risk was 4. 5 seems too high anyway, at 5 they often start evacuating people as snow doesn't need any triggers to slide.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I don't think that the avalanche risk was 5 when any of the accidents being discussed in this thread happened. But I'd be interested in any responses to my question about skiing closed runs (which was apparently where yesterday's accident happened). It's been discussed on SHs before, but worth us all being clear, maybe, about skiing closed runs. Any accident - even a slight fall which badly injures a knee - on a closed run, which requires piste rescue, could presumably be disowned by an insurance company on the grounds of skiing against local advice/imprudently etc etc.
I don't think it's uncommon for people to ski closed runs, ducking under tapes, etc but they are presumably closed or taped off for a reason.
It's one thing to take a risk for yourself, but as pointed out, you could also endanger others or maybe leave your family with a huge rescue bill. All worth thinking about!
When avy risk is 5/5 much of the mountain will be closed, I guess.
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It doesn't help when you see pics plastered all over FB of Professionals skiing offpiste in VD and Tignes at the moment.
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spud, that explains it then, must be FB's fault - hang Zuckerberg I say
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CaravanSkier, I've personally nearly been caught by avalanches on the piste a couple of times. Once in Kleinwalsertal a big slide went down over the valley run right in front of me. Had I been there a two seconds earlier I would have been swept off the piste and into a gully. The run was open at the time! Once in St.Anton a really major slide went down over the track back from Schindlerkar to the Schindler chairlift right behind me and my group. Had I been there ten seconds later I would have been buried for sure. Again the run was open, although that is a Schiroute and not a normal piste, it is supposedly avalanche controlled.
It does happen.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
| Whilst I recognise there must always be the possibility of avalanches on pisted runs I was under the impression that runs with much of a risk are generally closed. I just wondered what the chances of being caught out on well managed runs actually are ? |
A substantial amount avalanched onto an open run in La Norma when we were there in April. Nobody hurt that we know of but my wife and children were nearby. But that is the first time in 20 odd years I've (sort of) witnessed anything "worrying". Around the same time there was the bottom of a chair lift taken out by an avalanche in another French resort. So my take is that the chance is rare but discernible. Just what insurance is for I guess.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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It crossed my mind this morning, that Skiing in the mountains has to be one of the least controlled sports in the world.
Not that it's happened here, but in theory, anyone can buy a lift pass, go up a mountain and attempt to ski anywhere, without any mountain knowledge, awareness or even had a lesson on how to stop... let alone knowing about the dangers of Avalanches and knowing about the daily snow condition reports... yet you can buy insurance for yourself!!!
It's complete madness when you think about it.
I remember my second time skiing, many, many moons ago... I could hardly stand up snow ploughing. I was a danger to myself and others around me. I went off piste...because it looked a laugh.  I started an Avalanche and i had no idea why or what had happened. Fortunately nobody was hurt... but it was a real eye opener and shook me up.
I then made it my perogative to learn as much as i could.
Imho... it's the same as Insuring someone and allowing them to drive a car without ever having a lesson or knowing the rules of the road... Crazy...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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spud, It's usually self limiting behaviour as the skill deficiency means the truly incompetent can't get into too much trouble, you might as well criticize climbing rocks, swimming in the sea etc etc.
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You know it makes sense.
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Personally I'm not sure the idea of these 'Natur Ride' thingies helps (the Paqeurelles thingy in Tignes is one of these). Are they avalanche protected? Are they Patrolled? Are they marked on the ground as closed when they are closed? The edges / extent (if any) are/is never defined in my experience, just a series of 'piste markers' that mark (I presume) the rough line of the run but there's nothing to stop people wandering off onto non-protected, non-patrolled areas way off to the side and so causing havoc.
Freedom in the mountains is a great joy of mine (and all of ours I guess) and while that freedom should be protected it's also a privilege that we should not abuse... Off-piste / freeride should be for people who know what they're doing but these hybrid off-piste 'natur' runs lure the unskilled and ill equipped into areas and attitudes where they can become a danger to themselves and others.
Plus - selfishly - I like steep bashed black runs and they are rapidly disappearing 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Layne wrote: |
| Just what insurance is for I guess. |
Scant consolation when you've become strawberry jam (or an ice cube).
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Poster: A snowHead
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| fatbob wrote: |
| spud, It's usually self limiting behaviour as the skill deficiency means the truly incompetent can't get into too much trouble, you might as well criticize climbing rocks, swimming in the sea etc etc. |
But you are not paying a lift company or ski resort to ski within their boundaries and legislation to do so.
Prime example as i said. I was on my second ski holiday and was truely incompetent. It was only teenage bravado that got me in such a pickle. I could have quiet easily killed myself or someone else. All because i was allowed to buy a lift pass and do what i want.
I can understand taking risks and endangering oneself... but it is the danger of killing others because of a third parties neglegence that i can't except. You can have as many guides and instructors as you like and take as many precautions as you like, but you can't negate for the dangers caused by a complete incompetant.... which the laws allow.
It is madness, when you think how many people can be on the mountain at any one time.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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spud, That's nothing compared to the havoc created by people being allowed to have kids without taking a test 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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spud, the negligent are held to account though. People can and are prosecuted for causing death through negligence.
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| meh wrote: |
| spud, the negligent are held to account though. People can and are prosecuted for causing death through negligence. |
Great if your already injured or dead.
Can't believe i'm the only one that thinks like this.
What's the point of hiring a guide or instructor if any old fool can come careering towards you or set off an Avalanche above you?
This is why i found the whole ESF and hosting debate a farce... if it was about peoples safety, then some kind of mountain and skiing knowledge would be required of everyone allowed on the mountain.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Don't ski beneath a slope that might slide then. Pay attention the what others are doing around you.
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spud, you must be ecstatic to live in the UK from the sounds of things.
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| spud wrote: |
| It crossed my mind this morning, that Skiing in the mountains has to be one of the least controlled sports in the world. |
The difference between skiing and some other sports (like surfing) is that the danger is not always as apparent. I have been (holiday) skiing for more than 15 years and I have never seen a real avalanche in person. If I witnessed or was involved in something like this event then it really would be an experience that would change my behavior immediately.
The typical skier is totally ignorant of the danger. I don't want to comment but it sounds like those involved in this event really should have known better.
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| Timmaah wrote: |
| spud, you must be ecstatic to live in the UK from the sounds of things. |
Actually only here for 4 months of the year. I'm a ski Instructor and work in the mountains.
A timely report as if by magic...
http://www.planetski.eu/news/4460
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| Don't ski beneath a slope that might slide then. Pay attention the what others are doing around you. |
Of course you do that....but there are plenty of skiers and boarders that don't even know about Mountain safety and awareness. This is not about me... as i've trained to understand... and i'm still learning everyday.
I think you may have missed my point. 
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Elston, Well said...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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It's amazing you can buy a car without having to show your driving licence...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| spud wrote: |
| clarky999 wrote: |
| Don't ski beneath a slope that might slide then. Pay attention the what others are doing around you. |
Of course you do that....but there are plenty of skiers and boarders that don't even know about Mountain safety and awareness. This is not about me... as i've trained to understand... and i'm still learning everyday.
I think you may have missed my point. |
I think I do, you seem to be suggesting the lift companies should be responsible for regulating who is allowed access to the mountains, and would/should be found negligent if stupid people cause accidents.
Personally I think everyone has a right to the mountains, natural heritage and all that, but if you go into them you accept the risks. The lack of regulation is one of the things that makes them special.
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| Quote: |
The lack of regulation is one of the things that makes them special.
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+1
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You know it makes sense.
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The lack of regulation is one of the things that makes them special.
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+2
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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+3
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Poster: A snowHead
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It's not a case of regulation or deregulation. When you consider this incident and the one in the recent thread (http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=93615), these were experienced mountain users (or at least present at the incident). All the training, experience, equipment and awareness in the world doesn't matter a damn if you don't put it into practice each every time.
IMV, any mountain resort which allows an avalanche threat to exist above marked trails is neglegient, the risk should be addressed and managed, and we as their 'guests' should respect all the rules they see fit to impose and enforce. To me, the North American model of inbound/outbound has merit, with inbound being patrolled and avalanche protected, while outbound is the responsibility of the user to assess risk.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
...if you go into them you accept the risks. The lack of regulation is one of the things that makes them special.
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To accept the risks you need to be aware of them. It is important for people to be educated.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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From resort sources the slip occured on what would be the Paquerttes - which had not been opened (ie no piste poles), The slip finished up on Trolles which until yesterdat had closed banners at the top of it (junction with Piste H(enri). These banners had been moved to the side (friends skied it earlier in the morning) - but again there were no poles out - so technically there was no run. The banners are back today - but still lots of people coming down trolles. the gendarmes were out taking pics this morning. I supppose the philosophical question revolves round whether all potential pistes accessible from an open lift should be secured.
Lots more avaalanches today in teh closed Aiguille Percee area.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
IMV, any mountain resort which allows an avalanche threat to exist above marked trails is neglegient, the risk should be addressed and managed, . |
It's not as simple as this - most Euro resorts try really hard which is why Gasex and bomb trams etc are common, but there is no such thing as 100% safe. Almost by definition because most punters don't like skiing solely fall line there will be places where pistes will cross potential avalanche paths and along those paths there will always be the exceptional event that rips vastly bigger than normal.
NA inbound/outbound concepts aren't straightforward either - people can and do get killed in inbounds slides on occasion, & patrol can spend more than half the time that should be spent on control work policing idiots who think they can poach slow openings.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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fatbob, I do get where you're coming and I doubt any system would be perfect. But if there is a pisted area within a resort which has a known avalanche risk above it and it can't be safely controlled, well perhaps it shouldn't be a piste any more.
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| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
It's not a case of regulation or deregulation. When you consider this incident and the one in the recent thread (http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=93615), these were experienced mountain users (or at least present at the incident). All the training, experience, equipment and awareness in the world doesn't matter a damn if you don't put it into practice each every time.
IMV, any mountain resort which allows an avalanche threat to exist above marked trails is neglegient, the risk should be addressed and managed, and we as their 'guests' should respect all the rules they see fit to impose and enforce. To me, the North American model of inbound/outbound has merit, with inbound being patrolled and avalanche protected, while outbound is the responsibility of the user to assess risk. |
Totally agree...
Imho, it's not about regulation. I'm all for freedom of the mountains. But awareness of the dangers is a must as far as i'm concerned and many punters have no idea of these.
As an idea... what would be wrong in any Lift pass company showing a short video showing the dangers and mountain prorocol to punters. Shown to first time skiers/boarders and on completion they are given a card to show in future, when they are buying a pass, to show that they have seen the video and are aware.
TO's could also show the DVD on the transfer coaches.
It would be a one off and not expensive and it's not really regulation...just making people aware of the risks.
Any knowledge is good surely?
It would make some people think.
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| spud wrote: |
TO's could also show the DVD on the transfer coaches. |
Well, they could, but they wouldn't because it costs! A few years ago you got a film to amuse you on the transfer coach but now they never show them because it costs them for a licence. Likewise, the coach toilet is always "out of order today". Actually it's always locked up every day because it costs the TO to get it cleaned .
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spud, All for more information about dangers on the mountain (ask me about tree wells sometime)... But it's not Johnny and Jenny and lil Junior Punter that are generally the problem in this scenario. It's people like you, me, and probably most others here who are well aware of the dangers of our environment. We've seen the videos and read the info cards and know the scenarios and we would have the passcard/badge to show our attendance of the "THE WHITE DEATH" course.
But we're humans and we're dumb as rocks especially when we're in groups - we see something we want and we work out how to go get it. And then we cut corners. We use the dining room chair with the wobbly leg to change the lightbulb rather than getting the stepladder. We lever apart the frozen burgers with a cleaver rather than letting them defrost (thanks to missus and Whipps Cross Casualty dept for that example) and we go off piste in marginal conditions because you've maybe done it before and got away with it or there are tracks which you KNOW are no indication of safety but do make you feel a bit better anyway, and you do take that shortcut between the trees without avi gear because you reckon its a bit of overkill...
You're right it would make people think a bit, but they'll still think they can get away with it until the day they don't.
[/soapbox]
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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If the risk is high then one is playing Russian Roulette if one ventures off piste, even if the fault is caused by another party above you.
Pays your money, takes your choice.
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| maggi wrote: |
| spud wrote: |
TO's could also show the DVD on the transfer coaches. |
Well, they could, but they wouldn't because it costs! A few years ago you got a film to amuse you on the transfer coach but now they never show them because it costs them for a licence. Likewise, the coach toilet is always "out of order today". Actually it's always locked up every day because it costs the TO to get it cleaned . |
Fair enough... but i hope people get my drift. I'm not suggesting regulating as such... but at least make sure that those on the slopes have some awareness of what's what. It wouldn't cost a lot.
I was actually attracted to the mountains an oceans because of the freedom, so would never want to lose that.
When i went surfing for the first time... I had a lesson and learnt about the dangers and ocean ettiquete... it's not so hard to ask.
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