ESF take UK tour ops to court over alleged illegal ski guiding

A snowHead

Boredsurfing, no. At least not unless you take them on a route which you know to be dangerous and which they can't bail out of when they get there. There could be a negligence liability in that event.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

the only country complaining about it are the french though - the austrian, swiss, italians and other don't seem to have an issue with it, so why should there be anti-austrian sentiments etc?

i can see the argument for having a person with a known set of qualifications acting as a guide, and I can see why the TO might want someone with appropriate knowlegde of both skiing and the resort

You need to Login to know who's really who.

Pedantica, and so the difference in my two scenarios is?

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

When I worked for a TO and did ski hosting we had strict guidelines as well - we had a 2 day course in Val d'Isere with a mountain guide to give us some pointers but all you need to do really is show the major areas to your guests who haven't been there before and point out some good restaurants, other good runs that people can try in their free time. It was actually a great opportunity to sell ski lessons to anyone who wasn't sure about their technique or struggled with their confidence! We worked with ESF and the TO got 10% commission on anything that we sold. It worked great both ways - I think that what the French don't get is that ski hosting is more of a social gathering where you can meet other people and make skiing buddies for the rest of the week.
To be honest with my group of max 8 we still only managed around 5-6 lift by lunchtime as people got chatting, we had to wait for a few, etc - definitely not something you would want if you were paying an instructor for a lesson...

You'll need to Register first of course.

Boredsurfing, sorry, I added a bit before you posted again. The difference between the two scenarios is that one is France, which has its own laws I know notalot about, and the other is in England, which also has its own laws which I know a little bit about! Toofy Grin

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Re first aid qualifications... even if host had them, you wouldn't be able to use them.

TO's policy is that no employees are allowed to use first aid on clients. Only to call for Piste patrol.

I had a big argument about this at training. If a client was choking for example, TO's policy is for employee not to touch or intervene, just call emergency. For insurance policy apparantly. Goes against human nature to save another person. If you didn't agree to it, then they won't employ you.

After all it is free

Boredsurfing, oh, absolutely, I've never aspired to greater heights than that. (But it was me on the High Street, not necessarily the properties.) wink

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

*************

There is an obvious solution..

It's so obvious that I'm surprised that no one else has suggested it.

Starting from now, no one should be allowed to ski anywhere, either on piste or off, without a ski instructor.

Oh and whilst we're at it, anyone skiing with inappropriately fat skis (SH’s bashes take note wink

) should be pointed at and laughed at.

*************

snow reports

I am afraid that I have never seen the point of piste ski hosting or guiding. Every single resort I have been to has published a piste map and they let you know exactly where the pistes go and tell you roughly how difficult the pistes are. They even tell you where the restaurants are and when the lifts close. The tour operators would be much better off saying to their clients "If you want someone to ski with meet here at 9:00 in the morning and anyone who wants to ski hot chocolate runs with like minded individuals then here is a piste map and away you go"

Dear me. What a carry on......

So if the ESF gets their way, the slopes in France will become so much safer? In that event, should I wish to risk my life with a guide who is not a qualified paramedic and put myself at risk of sexual assault in the mountain restaurant WCs) oh dear, they failed their CRB check), I'd best stick with Austria, Switzerland or Italy wink

.

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Boredsurfing, if you represented yourself as taking care of them, yes. If you stated explicitly in writing that you were only showing them a route you know and that they were responsible for deciding for themselves if they were ready, willing and able to follow it, then *probably* no. Now, if you had an cycle instructor qualification your duty of care would be even greater. And, if you'd provided the bikes . . . Shocked

A snowHead

A snowHead

Wayne,

You've hit the nail on the head, the natural extension of the ESF logic is that no one should be skiing unless they are with a qualified instructor.

Basically it's the same OLD issue with the ESF - Protectionism.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

You need to Login to know who's really who.

I think this needs looking at against the wider background of the extent to which the French ski market has been penetrated by British companies, often not abiding by local laws. The whole "catered chalet" business is dodgy from this point of view. There are frequent threads on SHs where people who are setting up a chalet want hints and tips on how to circumvent French regulation in various ways. How many Brits who rent out their apartments in France are paying the tax they should?

And there are now a growing number of British ski schools (yes, I know they do comply with the laws) who are taking a lot of business from the French schools.

I wonder what our outdoor activity centres and organisations would make of a similar invasion of, say, the Scottish highlands, or the Cornish surfing scene? Polish-run hotels, employing lots of youngsters without complying with British laws, who don't speak much English, have no relevant qualifications and who are offering "free" days out to guests wanting to be guided around the hills, or to the best local surf spots. And guests who nick bread

The Brits have been able to penetrate the French market to the extent we have because French law and bureaucracy - though very annoying at times, to be sure, does operate in a reasonably predictable and consistent way, and everyone has to jump through pretty well the same hoops. How many British ski schools are there in Austria? Have BASS tried to set up there? Why are there so few British catered chalets? Why is ski hire so expensive in St Anton? Nothing to do with successful attempts to keep outsiders outside? And as for Switzerland, any suggestion that they are more welcoming and tolerant of foreigners buying into their most lucrative tourist areas is laughable.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

You'll need to Register first of course.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

I don't think it's clear from this thread or the other one linked to on the first page whether any laws are being broken. Anyway if it is the law, it's an ass. Often the reason many dumb laws are contravened or sidestepped is because they're dumb. Not going to argue the toss about whether it's right to do so, only that it's natural to do so. Whether, then, the people chosen to host on piste are ideal or not is not important if the clients are happy and not being misled about what they're getting.

feef, duty of care may exist whether or not there is an advertised service or paying public, in fact you can be a passer-by and have duty of care just by being the wrong person in the right place at the right time if for instance recognised or in uniform.

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

pam w, While, as ever, I appreciate your level headed comments, I don't think it's only the foreigners who do their best to circumvent French bureaucracy.

We are talking about the only country in the world who felt it necessary to publish a translation guide from their civil service language into that of everyday use.

And please do not get me started on social security or employment law!!

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

snow reports

- Haggis_Trap, you know nothing of my circumstances so are in no position to call Bulls**t. I would also guess you know little about the shenanigans that went on between the BASI and ESF delegations in the late 80's/early 90's (and if you do you won't be telling wink

). However I respect your position and the fact that you have no direct vested interest.

- I totally agree that restricting supply via a super-high standard of qualifications for instructors is a desirable thing. I just wish the standard set was more relative to safe excellent teaching (say minimum L2 equivalent, proven motivation to teach, and near fluency in the language of the target clients), rather than demanding a technical level far above that necessary to give a good safe lesson; and which almost by definition ensures the majority of those who can qualify can't even remember learning to ski, are bored at punter speeds, and were never motivated to teach in the first place but fell into it when they dropped out of racing.

- Yes the french have a perfect right to make their own rules, but right now the guiding/instructing agenda is set by lobbying from a special interest group. The Alpine region is 30% reliant on british tourists, but there is a general ignorance about how the ESF position is viewed by british punters and the damaging effect it has on france's competitiveness. I don't think it's arrogant to want to use our specialist knowledge of the british market to let the government, hoteliers and everyone else know the damaging impact of allowing the ESF to set themselves up as the sole arbiters of what is permitted on the hill.

- As far as hosting/guiding/animating etc is concerned I never suggested unqualified people are suitable, certainly the TOs should have to demand relevant skills (say L1 equivalent, basic local language skills and first aid). The french could even come up with an on-piste biased version of their "guide de moyenne montagne" qualification if they were serious about growing their share of the british ski market on their own terms; but the wider industry doesn't even know there's a problem due to the hegemony of the ESF.

Yeah, exactly, that's

You know it makes sense.

Went with skiworld's ski host a few times- excellent service. He said he was not allowed to go down any black runs with us or off-piste, even 'just between runs'. Stuck purely to reds & blues but a nice social ski for a few days.

Going to Morzine this year with Inghams who are advertising ski hosting for a few days of the week. If they are not allowed to do so I think Shep's suggested tripadvisor comments will be very appropriate

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

What is the deal with SCGB reps in France? Are they tolerated as their guides have gone through the training course in Tignes? Or is the argument that they are not making a commercial gain?

A snowHead

Haggis_Trap,

I am completely with you here. I can understand the ESF position on this and there does seem to be a lot of anti-french sentiment. You could easily see why there could be a blur between hosting, guiding and teaching - particularly from a brit company with British employees and British customers.

If I ever used I guide I would feel far more comfortable with an ESF instructor than a UK gap year student.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I've used British ski hosts (Ski club leaders) and also been shown round the mountain by instructors (of many different nationalities, in France, Austria Switzeland and the US). I preferred the latter, because the instructor tailored the route to my (families) ability level, and so took us down slopes that were within our ability or needed just a slight stretch. I suspect that assessing the ability level of inexperienced skiers is a skill that most good ski instructors will have, but that unqualified 'ski hosts' may lack.

If a mixed bunch of (say) Inghams punters all show up to be hosted, and the host can't judege (from watching them ski) their various levels of ability, then some may be put into situations they are unprepared for.

Last thought - you get what you pay for., sure make comments on Trip advisor if you think ski hosting is important to you, but better still pay to go somewhere else where it is provided. OTOH if you would rather hire an instructor to teach you while showing you round the hill then pay for that instead. The real problem here is that the tour ops are trying to do things on the cheap. If they instead offered paid for guiding, provided by qualified instructors, there would be no (legal) issue.

Edited: 'Tea club leaders'? Laughing

You need to Login to know who's really who.

emwmarine, there's no blur. Hosts are explicitly told no teaching and no off piste. The word guiding is a confusing one as to many, in European skiing terms, it means off piste mountain guiding (for which you want someone UIAGM/IFMGA qualified).

Axsman, but that's just it, aren't the tour ops just trying to offer a relaxed and social organised ski about? They quite rightly don't need a qualified instructor or to pay French* instructor rates (highest in the industry) for that.

*French as in in France

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Axsman,

No.

Wrong.

While TOs may be trying to do many thing on the cheap, in an area like the PdS guiding provides a valuable (but not reflected in the price of the holiday) function in that:

1. The area is so big that a ski hungry week only skier will not easily find themselves where they might want to be especially given the variability of snow and weather

2. Area maps cannot, by dint of their flatness, give any sensible idea of what a given piste will be like

3. At the very least, and although bias may be introduced by economic incentives, a locally experienced host is a reasonable indicator of good on mountain dining (on which, in my 3 seasons of hosting the best restaurants were invariably kindest to the hosts).

You'll need to Register first of course.

Axsman, Most Ski Host groups are focused onto what type of skiing will be done on a particular day, first day normally being a gentle tour of the pistes. Blue or Red days, visits to nearby resorts on other days perhaps. I like skiing with Ski Hosts, I enjoy the social side, I've met some still very good friends through host groups. There have been occasions where some of the skiers haven't been up to the general group standard, they've either done their own thing once dropped off at a suitable point, the host has recommended or sometimes even arranged lessons for them or the terrain skied has been dumbed down to accommodate them that day.

I don't see Ski Hosting as any sort of competition to Ski Schools, in fact I've seen people sent their way as customers where they probably would never have taken another lesson.

In Canada, Ski Hosting is provided by the resort free of charge, they can't take you on Black Diamonds or off-piste, but they'll point them out to you, let you do them whilst they ski the Blue run, meeting you at the bottom. Local knowledge is a great thing.

I think a Ski Host or any half decent skier through experience has an idea from looking whether another skier is capable of skiing a particular run.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

I can only remember useing the TO ski host thing once. The lovely young lady taking us round certainly could ski. We didn't go on any "difficult" runs, but we did do everything extremely quickly. By the end of the day there were only 2 punters left in the group.

Mind you I have also skied with an instructor who was similar. He seemed to want to weed out a few to get the group size down.

After all it is free

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

Alastair Pink, In Fernie they're all retired locals doing it for a free ski pass and the love of skiing and showing off their home hill. Forget their age, most of them could out ski me no problem, they'd been skiing their whole lives on a daily basis.

Help!!

ESF take UK tour ops to court over alleged illegal ski guiding

snowHeads Forum Index >>> The Piste