 Poster: A snowHead
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Needing ISIA to teach anywhere?........certainly not "common knowledge" to me. Wayne, be grateful if you could provide a bit more info/detail/timescales etc
Thanks.....
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Wayne, first i have heard that ISIA will be minimum standard within Europe, could you point us to something that explains this or details it? I would be really surprised to think that scotland for instance will not use L2's....
If that does happen most BASI members will be screwed. The BASI membership is less than 15% L3's and L4's with only around 400 total L3 and L4 members.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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GreyCat, DaveC, skimottaret
It’s all to do with mutual recognition of professional qualifications. Hmmmmmmm, and as all members of the ISIA have signed up for it, this is based around the ISIA qualification which has 2 levels (not 4).So you either have an ISIA stamp or card, or you don’t. Dead simple.
For details of minimum standards see here
http://www.isiaski.org/download/rules/Minimumstandard_en.pdf
So the minimum qualification in “some” EU states is to become to the ISIA stamp (L3) and those being seen and fully qualified will hold the ISIA card (L4).
But, as always with the EU there is an opt out (which the ESF love), so in some states if you only hold the stamp you’ll need to take an extra test.
See here
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:31992L0051:EN:HTML
Specifically
See article 14 – which the French, German, Italian and Austrian national governments, on behalf of the national governing ski associations have used to insist that migrant (non national) L3 or stamp holder ski instructors must take further test before working in their country as a ski teacher.
But, as the UK government, on behalf of BASI, has NOT made an application under article 14 of EU directive 92/51/EEC, migrant and local workers will still be able to operate as Ski Teachers with lower – non ISIA stamp or ISIA card – qualifications. So Scotish ski schools (and Hemel) will still be able to employ instructor without EU recognised qualifications (that’s L1 or L2 to me and you).
All the decisions regarding application to have further testing are basically the same – as they always do in these cases, the EU bowed down to the national governments.
As an example here is the German decision
http://ec.europa.eu/internal_market/qualifications/docs/ski/com-2001-1522/com-2001-1522_en.pdf
Take note of section 11 and the use of the work Permanent. Basically that’s it. Either pass their test or don’t work in Germany as a ski instructor.
Of course the Opt out goes on and on about safety and we all fully appreciate that it has nothing at all do with protectionism, what a shocking suggestion  .
Unlike the UK some countries have cantons (or their equivalent) with allows sub-districts to apply various alterations to national law. One of these cantons is the Aosta valley, so interski is safe – for the moment, until the local ski schools finally decide to stand up the local hoteliers, then we’ll see what happens.
************
Oh, just a point, have you noticed that, even though it was not mentioned with the original EU directive, the French, German and Austrian opt out discussions have included the term Ski Tour Guide as well as mountain guide, ski instructor, etc. So the SC of GB guides better watch out.
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Wayne, Thanks for the links, interesting but seems to me to reinforce that there is no current pan european legislation regarding ski instructors. Nor do i see any indication that there is any move to make holders of ISIA stamp or card a minimum qualification.
Each national/regional governing bodies have set their own minimum standards and training regimes. Some have been challenged but upheld. The instructor associations (the Euro Group) have recognised each others top qualification but underneath that is restricted to regional rules.
for instance in Aosta you can work with L2 for x weeks.
In France you can work with L2 plus Test technique in training schools.
Austria is regional and you can work in certain cantons with L2 plus language tests
etc, etc...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
for instance in Aosta you can work with L2 for x weeks.
In France you can work with L2 plus Test technique in training schools.
Austria is regional and you can work in certain cantons with L2 plus language tests
etc, etc...
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and in bit of Some countries you can do what you want 
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| Wayne, Thanks for the links, interesting but seems to me to reinforce that there is no current pan european legislation regarding ski instructors. |
The point of my posting the links was to show that the ISIA stamp and Card are coming in. The EU regs are that professional qualifications from another country must be allowed to operate locally. But as there is no harmony of levels many countries has just appealed and changed the rules for their country to the benefit of their governing associations.
There is only one set of harmonised levels (pan EU) and that is the ISIA stamp/card. As the reason for appealing is always on safety grounds the EU has no option but to allow the appeal. But when the ISIA system is adopted by the EU - which the ISIA is strenuously trying to get it to do - then there will be no reason to appeal and so it will become the standard – remember that the be-all-and-end-all of the EU is pan EU standardisation. They “really” want the ISIA system adopted. Even the ESF will have a problem trying to work around this.
The UK, not being a place with a skiing infrastructure (other than a few places in Scotland) will inevitably loose out in this. I don’t know what the % is (or the numbers) in BASI of the L3/L4’s but it’s a tiny number when compared to other EU (skiing) nations. We “are” going to lose out.
If you look at the OP
| fatbob wrote: |
| As I'm doing my annual umming and ahhing over whether to do a BASI level 1 course this summer. |
Really not getting at fatbob here BTW – but this is why we are going to lose out. To start training as a ski instructor is seen in most other EU countries as a major career decision. In the UK it’s seen as some sort of pastime and not the start of many years training and hard work that will lead to a proffessional qualification. OK, not for everyone but for the vast majority.
Of course (from a UK point of view) the main change when the ISIA system is adopted will be that L2’s will not be able to work other than in the UK. Don’t forget the EU legislation always recognises the right for local (that’s BASI in this case) authorities to operate within their own region. The point the EU is always on about is that “other” countries accepting migrating workers.
*******
On the Aosta point; think about it from the local ski school point's of view. If they adopt the ISIA levels it will, almost overnight, increase their income. I would think this will be one of the 1st places to adopt the stamp/card system. (well I would if I owned a ski school there).
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Wayne,
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| On the Aosta point; think about it from the local ski school point's of view. If they adopt the ISIA levels it will, almost overnight, increase their income. I would think this will be one of the 1st places to adopt the stamp/card system. (well I would if I owned a ski school there). |
I'd be surprised if the local ski school wants all the work available. Even if they did, the argument appears to have been, that if the change was made (and it would be relatively easy as a autonomous region) the dominant TOs business model would be stuffed, which would result in the Valley as a whole loosing revenue.
Skiing aside, Aosta is a great case study on the law of unintended consequences when politicians get involved in drafting law to solve a economic / social problems 
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Wayne, i think you are jumping to conclusions saying the card and stamp are "coming in". Personally i would welcome stamp holders being able to work for ski schools and Card holders as independants anywhere in the EU with lower levels being able to work in their own territory, makes sense to me but....
ISIA is a global standard, not just an EU one and the "pyramid structure" of the card and stamp with local association lower levels at the base has been talked about for years. The Canadians and Americans havent implemented the stamp/card and the Euro Group has been opposed to this and threatened withdrawal from the ISIA and setting up their own EU based association called FEMPS.
Having to have a stamp to work in foreign countries may happen but we shall see....
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Looking at the names of the asscociations
Hmmmmmmm
FEMPS (Fédération Européenne des Moniteurs Professionnels de Ski)
In French - a language spoken in (mainly) 1 or 2 countries
ISIA (International Ski Instructors Association)
In English - arguably the most the most widely spoken language in the world.
I think this says more about this than anything else could
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Wayne, http://www.femps.org/ind_engl.html
femps is the Italians, Austrians and French, who combined form the vast majority of full cert ski instructors in Europe and holds a lot of power. So what if english is most widely spoken, says nothing, means nothing.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Wayne, Thanks for the update. I may have missed it in your post but do you know what the suggested timescale is? If, as you are suggesting, that only ISIA qualified instructors can work in Europe in the near future, then i can see this having quite profound economic effects on certain T/Os, Ski Schools etc not to mention BASI.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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ISIA is a world wide organisation, not just a European one. For Europe we already have the Eurogroup.
ISIA member states would NOT want the EU to adopt ISIA as a minimum standard as it would kill the industry. With that in mind I dont think any European instructors association will support this.
Using Austria as an example, the vast majority of ski schools employ Anwarter (level 1 instructors) with 1 or 2 ISIA level and and the ski school directors holding the full diploma. As a business it just wound not work as there would not be enough ISIA level instructors (by a long way) to service demand. This would also drive the cost to high.
Austria see ISIA as a "club". It really has no power of influence over the multi millon € ski business. I would imagine other European countries would feel the same.
PSG
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skimottaret,
Think this just some people trying to maintain the status quo
GreyCat,
Not a clue. It may never happen. But I know the EU love to standardise stuff across the EU so they and the ISIA are pressing for it.
I can still see some form of opt out for any countries that want it, that’s just how the EU works.
Also, as most of the EU ski counties don't have the graduated levels as we do, it wouldn't affect them to have them stamp/card.
We'll just have to wait and see what happens.
Would be a shame though. I know some really good teachers with L2. They just don't have the time / money to get L3. They are really good at teaching, the clients love them and they get work every year. I hope that it just stays like it is at the mo.
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You know it makes sense.
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GreyCat, Wayne, have a read of the news from the last ISIA conference held in may in aviemore... http://www.isiaski.org/en/1/index.html click on isia direct in bottom right hand side.
The history bit summarizes the current position quite well and emphasizes that since 2000 the eurotest group have been split from ISIA and since 2008 formation of FEMPs the division has widened. I wouldnt hold your breathe on changes soon but i hope they happen so that ISIA stamp holders could potentially work within the EU schools, Card holders independently with BASI L1 and L2 limited to Britain. makes sense to me. My guess (which is pure speculation) is that the eurogroup will take on the ISIA test as minimum standard and only allow Card holders to operate through mutual recognition as is the case now with the ISTD's
They also state that during a meeting with the EU in January NO set of professional bodies within EU have agreed a common minimum set of standards, so Waynes speculation is pretty pointless and without grounds..
Worth noting as well that 8 countries who have submitted names of all Card holding instructors (Argentina, Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Japan, Great Britain, Italy, the Netherlands, Austria and Spain). there are 12,000 total. Britain has less than 300 and i would hazard a guess that france, italy and austria (the FEMPS group) account for near 10,000. What is ISIA without these three countries? what power does it hold other than being the only body which emcompasses all EU ski associations.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Wayne, so why exactly did you try to present your pointless and groundless speculation as factual and a done deal? Trying to cut down on competition?
fatbob, go for it, it's a blast. Most will never reach top level instructor - quite correctly the standard is very high, but you'll enjoy teaching and improve your own skiing at the same time.
| wayne wrote: |
To start training as a ski instructor is seen in most other EU countries as a major career decision. In the UK it’s seen as some sort of pastime and not the start of many years training and hard work that will lead to a proffessional qualification. OK, not for everyone but for the vast majority.
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I'd say it's only seen as a major career decision in a minority of EU countries - in fact only France and Italy come to mind and there are lots of EU countries. Many places have part-timers with low level qualifications teaching on the mountain, and happily it's likely to stay that way for a long while.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| slikedges wrote: |
| Wayne, so why exactly did you try to present your pointless and groundless speculation as factual and a done deal? Trying to cut down on competition? |
As far as I can tell it's going to happen. I may be totally wrong about this (fair enough), but as far as I can see the EU wants’ it and the ISIA want it, so it is going to happen. The Card / Stamp "will" be required sooner or later. The reason I think it's going to happen is that there is no one, with a vested interest big enough to stand up to the EU. It would need combine government action to be able to stop it, and we all know that's not going to happen
I fully expect there to be lots of fudges along the way but that the nature of these things. The French will have their races, BASI will keep the multi level stand, the Italians will keep their regional rules, etc, etc, etc. But, let’s face it, most of the EU area already requires this level, so it's no skin of their nose to adopt something they already do anyway - the only sticking point I can see it for stamp holders (L3's). but that'll work itself out in the end.
| slikedges wrote: |
| Trying to cut down on competition? |
Sorry, lost me on that one. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Back to the intial question ...
BASI run refresher & conversion courses at the various indoor snow slopes throughout the year. You might be able to get a trainer to look at you quickly. Alternatively any L3 should be able to give you a rough assessment.
And picking up on a few of the other points ...
You can't teach anywhere with a L1 (officialy) although some of the schools operators will employ you, but you are not insured (despite what they say) & illegal
You can teach in Switzerland with a L2
There are very few places in Europe that you can teach with a L3, you really need a L4
My L3 took took 5 years & well over £10,000 to get.
I didn't go on any training couses, but did have to retake my L3 technical
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| Alan McGregor wrote: |
There are very few places in Europe that you can teach with a L3, you really need a L4
My L3 took took 5 years & well over £10,000 to get. |
The crux of the issue if you hold a L2 and have no intention / too old to go L4.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| david@mediacopy wrote: |
The crux of the issue if you hold a L2 and have no intention / too old to go L4. |
Slightly off topic (apologies) but can you define what you mean by 'too old' in this instance?
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skimottaret, aye, just a state of mind 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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thats the spirit !
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Wayne, So bascially ski instruction is only something for those who commit to it in their twenties? It would be useful if BASI could align on this point, accepting that their revenues and membership would drop dramatically.
I've come to this conclusion too. Granted there seem to be some latecomers making a bit of a go of it like skimottaret and rob@rar but they are pretty dedicated and I suspect that their skiing for leisure is pretty limited.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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fatbob, seems like the conclusion is that you have to have lots of time and no commitments, or the ability to cope with financial instability, which just happens to be easier for the young. Bit like Uni really. I don't see why age really matters itself?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| DaveC wrote: |
| fatbob, seems like the conclusion is that you have to have lots of time and no commitments, or the ability to cope with financial instability, which just happens to be easier for the young. Bit like Uni really. I don't see why age really matters itself? |
I agree apart from the fact that to qualify at the highest level, which is what is required to truly make an independent living, you need to be starting on the track young enough to pass the Eurotest.
I don't disagree that standards should be high but I have always questioned why racing skills at such a level are so essential other than as a barrier to entry. While I occasionally see instructors in very high end terrain its a rarity and its atypical to see classes on terrain much above mild red. If anyone contends that it ensures a standard of excellence I can only point to a number of ESF snowboard instructors I've observed who quite obviously were primarily interested in skiing and were appaliing role models to their classes with severely flawed technique e.g. upper body initiated turns etc.
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Given speed is an end product of efficient technique, I'm not really convinced that you *have* to be young to pass the Eurotest, you just have to be good.
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You know it makes sense.
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It's probably worth noting I haven't met a CSIA4 that's under 30, and most people training for it at Fernie are a fair bit older than 30. None that I can think of, of the 5-6 going for it and the 5-6 l4's around are <35.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| fatbob wrote: |
Wayne, So bascially ski instruction is only something for those who commit to it in their twenties? It would be useful if BASI could align on this point, accepting that their revenues and membership would drop dramatically.
I've come to this conclusion too. Granted there seem to be some latecomers making a bit of a go of it like skimottaret and rob@rar but they are pretty dedicated and I suspect that their skiing for leisure is pretty limited. |
I think you need to distinguish between full-time instruction and part-time instruction. If you want to teach part-time during the year at places like Hemel, or for a couple of weeks in the mountains with companies like Interski or Skiing Europe then a BASI L2 (or equivalent such as CSIA, PSIA, Anwerter, etc) is perfectly good enough, and IMO is likely to remain so for some time. If that's what you want then go for it, regardless of age. For most people doing this they are going to be teaching a lot of kids and a lot of beginners, so you need to make sure that's what you want to do otherwise it all seems a bit pointless badge chasing.
One of the reasons why age does become a factor in going for the higher level qualifications (L3 and L4) is that you need to put in a lot of time training to get to the required standard, so the usual constraints which come with age (limited time off work, family responsibilities, etc) do become an issue. The feedback that I've got from Trainers is that I might well get to Eurotest and L4 Tech standard, but I would have to put in two or three seasons of full-time training. That's not something that I want to do or could afford to do, so I don't have any plans of going for the Eurotest and L3 is where I will (probably) stop.
For me the term "leisure skiing" has kind of lost its meaning. I do have a holiday with my girlfriend over Christmas, so I suppose that's leisure skiing, but the rest of the time I'm either training, teaching or being assessed. Skiing definitely feels like a job not an extended recreational activity. Having said that, I really enjoy the teaching and when I'm training or being assessed it will involve skiing fast, steeps, bumps, variable snow, GS and occasionally really good snowploughs. So, what's not to like about that?
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Thu 8-07-10 12:19; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar makes a good point there too - if you're spending that much time skiing that you're aiming for the Eurotest, expecting it to be the same level of recreational fun as a hobby as well as a job is optimistic at best. The guy that trains a lot in Fernie is ridiculously good, but will openly admit he skis to teach and his enjoyment is helping people learn and progress rather than the actual skiing so much, which makes sense to me. I can't imagine he goes freeskiing for the sake of skiing very often.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
I don't see why age really matters itself?
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I dont believe it does matter. As previously stated I think age can create psychological barriers about physiological problems that don’t always exist or are less restricting than one might think. A good physical program can get most people to the physical shape they need to perform on the hill to reach the required level in the euro test or level 3/4 tech etc. There are many athletes performing at a high level after many injuries/operations and who are deemed “old” for example Patrick Jaerbyn ranked top 30 in the world in two disciplines at 41. As mentioned earlier it’s a state of mind and a good gym program
From a financial aspect, I appreciate it is harder when you have other financial commitments but I think the course fees BASI charge are very reasonable for the training and qualification you receive. The costs can be reduced dramatically by your choice of accommodation for example self catered etc.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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jjc, have you seen many brits over 30 or 40 pass? seems to me strength training is fairly important and that over mid 30's it will get pretty tough from a sheer physical ability level to pass.
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Of course I'm trolling a bit with the "too old to start" point but both rob & DaveC have made interesting comments on the instructor career path
"I can't imagine he goes freeskiing for the sake of skiing very often."
"For me the term "leisure skiing" has kind of lost its meaning"
I understand that these do not mean skiing has become a joyless experience but I guess there is a risk that the focus on goals means that skiing loses something of its "joie de vivre" or "just because".
jjc, I totally understand your point but physically you take longer to recover from injuries as you get older, consequences of earlier youthful decisions start to impact (e.g. playing rugby through cartilage injuries) start to manifest etc etc. and that's before the mental "edge" that you lose with increasing maturity as you realise you no longer have to beat everyone at everything and that you're not invincible. Maybe testosterone patches should be part of the programme. I'd guess that if a 20 year old fails the Eurotest its because the course was unfair, they had a bad start no etc etc but a 50 year old might just be more accepting that they weren't good enough on the day.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| fatbob wrote: |
"I can't imagine he goes freeskiing for the sake of skiing very often."
"For me the term "leisure skiing" has kind of lost its meaning"
I understand that these do not mean skiing has become a joyless experience but I guess there is a risk that the focus on goals means that skiing loses something of its "joie de vivre" or "just because". |
I'm enjoying my skiing now more than I've ever done, and I'm skiing to a far higher standard accessing more terrain than I've ever done. So skiing has lost nothing, but it is different from what it was five years ago. You've got to enjoy teaching (and everything which goes with that, including the process of becoming qualified) otherwise I don't think there's much point in chasing the badge. If you just want to access high quality training, perhaps with a very strong technical focus, there are plenty of other options. You could, for example, sign up with jjc for some of their Eurotest training - I'm sure there's no compulsion to actually attempt the Eurotest but the training for it will be extremely good for your skiing.
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skimottaret, I wouldn't say I have seen many but I have seen a select few who have persisted, trained hard and are now either very close to the level or have passed. I believe we see a lot less because of the negative vibe surrounding the Euro test in both younger and older candidates. Is it easier to use physical ability as an excuse rather than working hard in the gym or looking at technical and tactical reasons?
fatbob, I agree that older injuries may be restricting (fingers crossed they are not after my two cartilage surgeries) and again you are right when you talk about psychological factors. Do you not think though that by being in a positive training environment and by working on your mental focus when it comes to a test/race you can turn that around? Remember you only have to be fast on one run!! Through out my sporting career i have been surrounded by many influential positive "older" role models. For example my judo teacher didn’t start until he was over 50 and reached 7th dan black belt by 77 and was still giving impressive demonstrations at this age. He always said "you never fail until you don’t try again"
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| fatbob wrote: |
I understand that these do not mean skiing has become a joyless experience but I guess there is a risk that the focus on goals means that skiing loses something of its "joie de vivre" or "just because".
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I'm pretty sure if life was all about hookers, blow and ferrari's, they'd all lose their "joie de vivre" too, but I bet it'd be fun
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DaveC, 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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DaveC First time I've ever heard the pleasure of the BASI system compared to those. Time to sign up the whole of TGR to BASI?
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| jjc wrote: |
| For example my judo teacher didn’t start until he was over 50 and reached 7th dan black belt by 77 and was still giving impressive demonstrations at this age. He always said "you never fail until you don’t try again" |
Yep - my instructors never minded that as disabled skier I was less than athletic and had regular 'fall down' episodes(frustration, cannot get this bit, scared, struggling to flex this or extend that, cannot see the difference between x and y)... because I always fronted again at 8:30 for first lifts, did my warm up and training and was ready to try again in my lesson at 9:30...
Their version of your judo teacher's saying was 'success is getting up one more time than the number of times you fall'
They loved teaching me because every season without fail I made serious improvements. So they had success as well...
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FAQ
